Is the Devil bound right now...?
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Sorry to mess up your theory, but WE do not bind the Devil, because a special angel GOD CREATED FOR THAT PURPOSE DOES THAT. WE can announce that GOD does bind the sins of an unrepentant sinner to him, and when he is genuinely repentant, we were given the authority to announce that GOD does loose him from those sins, because he did repent. It can refer to Forbidding and Permitting something because it is defined in the Word of GOD. That is what the Rabbi's would do at the time of Christ to settle an argument about the Law. Actually when you translate the Greek words binding and loosing to HEBREW, they do come out Forbidding and Permitting. So it pays to study about Jewish practices, too. HOWEVER, IT NEVER SAYS ANYWHERE THAT WE PERSONALLY CAN BIND SATAN OR HIS DEMONS. The two occasions that I had to confront someone whom I was sure was under the influence of demons; I asked GOD TO SEND ANGELS to stand guard, while I shared the gospel with those individuals. I was confident that those two prayers were answered. I do not consider that to be a power or authority that I had, but I certainly believe some Angels have that kind of Power and Authority. I believe the Charismatic excesses in this belief are NOT SUPPORTED BY SCRIPTURE, and are a total misinterpretation of what Jesus meant by binding and loosing in Mat. 16:19.
John 20:22-23 (NASB) Kik
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]"If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain (bind) the sins of any, they have been retained."
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]www.seriousfaith.com
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[HR][/HR][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Question:[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]What is binding and loosing? I hear people pray or talking about “binding Satan”, “loosing finances” or “binding sickness”. Is this Biblical? Are Christians supposed to “bind and loose”?[/FONT]
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[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](note: I wrote a specific lesson about “binding Satan” here:http://www.seriousfaith.com/asr/question.asp?questionid=1236)[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The terms "binding and loosing" have been used in the past couple of decades in the prosperity, "word faith" teaching. It is very common to hear someone "bind Satan" (sometime they loose angels), "bind sickness" (loose health) or "bind poverty" (loose finances).[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]One of the common Bible verses that is totally misinterpreted to support this is Matt 18:18:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]“And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Obviously, there is something about binding and loosing for Christians, so what is it, what does it mean, and when/if should we do it?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Binding and loosing are legal terms much like a Judge makes a pronouncement about who was guilty (bound) or not (loosed). It is a statement of authority. The Judge speaks on behalf of the Law, and can say what will happen (loose) and what won't happen (bind)… he declares, or applies the Law[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In Matt 18:15-20, Jesus gives Peter, and by extension all Believers, the authority to "bind and loose" within the scope of Biblical guidelines. In summary, it has to do with church authority and discipline of the unrepentant but professing Believer:
[/FONT]http://www.seriousfaith2.com/asr/questionprint.asp?questionid=3118 [/quote]
(quote)"Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." This and a companion passage in John 20:23 are sometimes used to teach that Peter and his supposed successors were given the authority to forgive sins. We know that this cannot be so; only God can forgive sins.
[/FONT]There are two ways of understanding the verse. First, it may mean that the apostles had power to bind and to loose that we do not have today. For example, Peter bound their sins on Ananias and Sapphira so that they were punished with instant death (Acts 5:1-10), while Paul loosed the disciplined man in Corinth from the consequences of his sin because the man had repented (2 Cor. 2:10).
Or the verse may mean that whatever the apostles bound or loosed on earth must have already been bound or loosed in heaven (see NKJV margin). Thus Ryrie says, "Heaven, not the apostles, initiates all binding and loosing, while the apostles announce these things."
The only way in which the verse is true today is in a declarative sense. When a sinner truly repents of his sins and receives Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, a Christian can declare that person's sins to be forgiven. When a sinner rejects the Savior, a Christian worker can declare his sins to be retained. William Kelly writes, "Whenever the Church acts in the name of the Lord and really does His will, the stamp of God is upon their deeds."
Believer's Bible Commentary: A Thorough, Yet Easy-to-Read Bible Commentary That Turns Complicated Theology Into Practical Understanding.[/quote]
Now perhaps the English words Binding and Loosing, carry too strong of a meaning to be correctly understood in English. Here is what an excerpt from Sid Roth's site, a Messianic Christian's.
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Binding and loosing were practises carried out by the Scribes who were given the authority to bind and loose. To bind meant to interpret a law in the strictest and harshest sense with no leeway. To loose meant to give a lax or more favourable interpretation of a law. Thus Shammai insisted on a strict interpretation of the law on divorce. Hillel allowed divorce on very easy grounds.
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Matthew: 19. 3. And there came to him the Pharisees tempting him, and saying: Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
4. Who answering, said to them: Have ye not read, that he who made man from the beginning, Made them male and female? And he said:
5. For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they two shall be in one flesh.
6. Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder.
7. They say to him: Why then did Moses command to give a bill of divorce, and to put away?
8. He saith to them: Because Moses by reason of the hardness of your heart permitted you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
God bless us all always
:smoke: thank you very much :happy:
4. Who answering, said to them: Have ye not read, that he who made man from the beginning, Made them male and female? And he said:
5. For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they two shall be in one flesh.
6. Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder.
7. They say to him: Why then did Moses command to give a bill of divorce, and to put away?
8. He saith to them: Because Moses by reason of the hardness of your heart permitted you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
God bless us all always
:smoke: thank you very much :happy:
Bowman: ‘Is the 1,000 years that Satan is bound, literal?’
Gold’s gym tank top: ‘Yes, it is.’
Bowman: ‘What about the 1 hour that Satan is released, is this also literal?’
Gold’s gym tank top: ‘Ummmm….no, it can’t be.’
Bowman: ‘So, where is your consistency in scripture interpretation?’
Gold’s gym tank top: ‘inconsistency in my consistency.’
Gold’s gym tank top: ‘Yes, it is.’
Bowman: ‘What about the 1 hour that Satan is released, is this also literal?’
Gold’s gym tank top: ‘Ummmm….no, it can’t be.’
Bowman: ‘So, where is your consistency in scripture interpretation?’
Gold’s gym tank top: ‘inconsistency in my consistency.’
Revelation 20:1-3 (NRSV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
[SUP]3 [/SUP] and threw him into the pit, and locked and sealed it over him, so that he would deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be let out for a little while.
Its so unimaginable that someone like us a gentiles and never been teached by any man or churches that are existing today on our present time prior to every beliefs of the different groups and sects has something to do with the doctrines
That are written in the bible itself . ...
1 Peter: 3. 14. But if also you suffer any thing for justice' sake, blessed are ye. And be not afraid of their fear, and be not troubled.
15. But sanctify the Lord Christ in your hearts, being ready always to satisfy every one that asketh you a reason of that hope which is in you.
16. But with modesty and fear, having a good conscience: that whereas they speak evil of you, they may be ashamed who falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
:rofl:Even us never expect anything
that comes only from our own knowledge :think:
*according saulo este Pablo or Paul
Ephesians: 3. 4. As you reading, may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ,
5. Which in other generations was not known to the sons of men, as it is now revealed to his holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit:
6. That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and co-partners of his promise in Christ Jesus, by the gospel:
:smoke: thank you very much :happy:
God bless us all always
That are written in the bible itself . ...
1 Peter: 3. 14. But if also you suffer any thing for justice' sake, blessed are ye. And be not afraid of their fear, and be not troubled.
15. But sanctify the Lord Christ in your hearts, being ready always to satisfy every one that asketh you a reason of that hope which is in you.
16. But with modesty and fear, having a good conscience: that whereas they speak evil of you, they may be ashamed who falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
:rofl:Even us never expect anything
that comes only from our own knowledge :think:
*according saulo este Pablo or Paul
Ephesians: 3. 4. As you reading, may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ,
5. Which in other generations was not known to the sons of men, as it is now revealed to his holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit:
6. That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and co-partners of his promise in Christ Jesus, by the gospel:
:smoke: thank you very much :happy:
God bless us all always
No I m saying that many of you have been brainwashed by your teachers so that you cannot read the Bible without blinkers on. All my beliefs are in accord with the inspired word, NOT with American pretrib teachers brought up on Scofield and Darby etc.
This certainly does NOT mean that the Evil One is ruling the world. CHRIST is prince of the kings of the earth (REV 11.5). What does it mean? It means that the whole world outside of Christ (the world whose thoughts and ways are loved by unbelievers - 1 John 2.15 ff) are allowing the Evil One to influence their ways through his many minions. It especially has in mind that the world is deceived about the truth, partly because of his power to deceive. He is the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience. But he is not their king. He works insidiously within them. They do not always obey him unless it suits them. They do not recognise his authority.
I look at the Scriptures as a whole and see it in that light. His power is one of influence and deceit, not absolute power. And don't be fooled. He gets as frustrated over the behaviour of men and women as God does, but in a different way. In many ways they don't do what he wants either.
Some of you Americans have deified the Devil!!!
No earthly reign of Christ is mentioned anywhere in Scripture apart from His reign on earth when He was alive and His reign over the earth NOW.
[SUP]8
LOL now I understand. You get your doctrines from the Devil? It figures. Don't you know that he was a liar from the beginning? Do you also believe, 'you shall not really die'? LOL LOL How many other Devil's lies do you believe?
These were the Devil's claims. He did not realise Who Jesus was and thought he could deceive Him. Jesus just ignored them and went to the heart of the matter.
[/SUP] That was the heart of the matter, not the Devil's spurious claims.
If you are referring to the claims of the Devil I certainly do not believe what he says. Am I to gather that you do? It figures.
Of course the Devil especially influences those who have opened their lives to him. That is what the occult is all about. But even then they do not fully obey him. I don't think you have thought things through otherwise you would not distort the Scriptures.
But THEY are not under the power of the Evil One are they? Or do you think Christians are as well? LOL So what are you saying? No one denies that Satan tries to influence men, both saved and unsaved. What he does to neither is lord it over them.
Of course he is. He is doing it now through you.
I obey God. I guess it is all too complicated for you to understand, never mind. Keep trying. Who knows when the Holy Spirit will seek to reveal it to you IF YOU WILL LISTEN
It is Christ's concept of spiritual reigning, HE AND HIS APOSTLES SAID IT. His kingdom is in this world, but not of it, as He said to Pilate (John 18.36). He is prince of the kings of the earth (Rev 1.5 - how you must hate that verse LOL). He appoints all world rulers (Rom 13.1-6; John 19.11). His Kingly rule is continually advancing over the hearts of men (Col 1.13), and we pray for its advance when we pray daily. 'your kingly rule come, your will be done on earth as in Heaven '. When Jesus Christ came into the world He came as its king. He has never abdicated. He ruled whilst He was on earth, and His disciples ruled with Him. Demons were subject to them. Satan was bound. He entered Jerusalem as its king. When they crucified Him He simply rose and took His Davidic throne in Heaven from where He now continues to reign. (Acts 2.30, 36). He is king of kings and LORD OF LORDS NOW (1 Tim 6.15). His saints reign with Him (Rev 5.10; 2-.4-5). His kingly rule is continually advancing, and His power is constantly being manifested in this earth. He is gradually overcoming the rebels against His rule and will finalise their defeat when He comes again to take those under His kingly rule to Heaven in preparation for establishing His everlasting kingdom in the new spiritual earth which He will create, a kingdom that flesh and blood cannot enter.
And we who are truly His reign with Him (Ephe 2.5-6; Col 3.1). We exercise His power through prayer and through the word. We are mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds. We reign with Him in life (Rom 5.17).
How sad it is for you people who are hiding away, skulking in corners because you do not know your privileges. Enjoy your participation in Christ's resurrection and in His Kingly Rule. Go forward with might unafraid of the vicissitudes of the world. Recognise that the victory is yours in Christ. HE REIGNS.
Your problem is partly that you do not understand how kingdoms were formed. Every time a king came to the throne he was faced with rivals. And the first years of his reign were involved in defeating those rivals. He may initially only have exercised authority over a small part of the kingdom, but gradually he gained more and more sway over his kingdom(or sank). But he still REIGNED. That is what Christ is doing as He reigns NOW.
LOL the throne of my life is JESUS throne. I will never desert it. Jesus already sits on it (Eph 2.5-6). WHY DON'T YOU OPEN YOUR EYES TO WHAT SCRIPTURE TEACHES?.
This certainly does NOT mean that the Evil One is ruling the world. CHRIST is prince of the kings of the earth (REV 11.5). What does it mean? It means that the whole world outside of Christ (the world whose thoughts and ways are loved by unbelievers - 1 John 2.15 ff) are allowing the Evil One to influence their ways through his many minions. It especially has in mind that the world is deceived about the truth, partly because of his power to deceive. He is the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience. But he is not their king. He works insidiously within them. They do not always obey him unless it suits them. They do not recognise his authority.
I look at the Scriptures as a whole and see it in that light. His power is one of influence and deceit, not absolute power. And don't be fooled. He gets as frustrated over the behaviour of men and women as God does, but in a different way. In many ways they don't do what he wants either.
Some of you Americans have deified the Devil!!!
No earthly reign of Christ is mentioned anywhere in Scripture apart from His reign on earth when He was alive and His reign over the earth NOW.
[SUP]8
LOL now I understand. You get your doctrines from the Devil? It figures. Don't you know that he was a liar from the beginning? Do you also believe, 'you shall not really die'? LOL LOL How many other Devil's lies do you believe?
These were the Devil's claims. He did not realise Who Jesus was and thought he could deceive Him. Jesus just ignored them and went to the heart of the matter.
[/SUP] That was the heart of the matter, not the Devil's spurious claims.
If you are referring to the claims of the Devil I certainly do not believe what he says. Am I to gather that you do? It figures.
Of course the Devil especially influences those who have opened their lives to him. That is what the occult is all about. But even then they do not fully obey him. I don't think you have thought things through otherwise you would not distort the Scriptures.
But THEY are not under the power of the Evil One are they? Or do you think Christians are as well? LOL So what are you saying? No one denies that Satan tries to influence men, both saved and unsaved. What he does to neither is lord it over them.
Of course he is. He is doing it now through you.
I obey God. I guess it is all too complicated for you to understand, never mind. Keep trying. Who knows when the Holy Spirit will seek to reveal it to you IF YOU WILL LISTEN
It is Christ's concept of spiritual reigning, HE AND HIS APOSTLES SAID IT. His kingdom is in this world, but not of it, as He said to Pilate (John 18.36). He is prince of the kings of the earth (Rev 1.5 - how you must hate that verse LOL). He appoints all world rulers (Rom 13.1-6; John 19.11). His Kingly rule is continually advancing over the hearts of men (Col 1.13), and we pray for its advance when we pray daily. 'your kingly rule come, your will be done on earth as in Heaven '. When Jesus Christ came into the world He came as its king. He has never abdicated. He ruled whilst He was on earth, and His disciples ruled with Him. Demons were subject to them. Satan was bound. He entered Jerusalem as its king. When they crucified Him He simply rose and took His Davidic throne in Heaven from where He now continues to reign. (Acts 2.30, 36). He is king of kings and LORD OF LORDS NOW (1 Tim 6.15). His saints reign with Him (Rev 5.10; 2-.4-5). His kingly rule is continually advancing, and His power is constantly being manifested in this earth. He is gradually overcoming the rebels against His rule and will finalise their defeat when He comes again to take those under His kingly rule to Heaven in preparation for establishing His everlasting kingdom in the new spiritual earth which He will create, a kingdom that flesh and blood cannot enter.
And we who are truly His reign with Him (Ephe 2.5-6; Col 3.1). We exercise His power through prayer and through the word. We are mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds. We reign with Him in life (Rom 5.17).
How sad it is for you people who are hiding away, skulking in corners because you do not know your privileges. Enjoy your participation in Christ's resurrection and in His Kingly Rule. Go forward with might unafraid of the vicissitudes of the world. Recognise that the victory is yours in Christ. HE REIGNS.
Your problem is partly that you do not understand how kingdoms were formed. Every time a king came to the throne he was faced with rivals. And the first years of his reign were involved in defeating those rivals. He may initially only have exercised authority over a small part of the kingdom, but gradually he gained more and more sway over his kingdom(or sank). But he still REIGNED. That is what Christ is doing as He reigns NOW.
LOL the throne of my life is JESUS throne. I will never desert it. Jesus already sits on it (Eph 2.5-6). WHY DON'T YOU OPEN YOUR EYES TO WHAT SCRIPTURE TEACHES?.
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Are you SURE it is not SELF and YOUR intellect that sits on the Throne, or maybe your TEACHER and his false teaching that you bow to? We believe what the BIBLE SAYS, whereas I see you very often vainly trying to explain your perceived reasons that it does not actually mean what it says.
EXAMPLE:
Zechariah 14:4-9 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. The Mount of Olives will be split in half from east to west, forming a huge valley, so that half the mountain will move to the north and half to the south.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] You will flee by My mountain valley, for the valley of the mountains will extend to Azal. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come and all the holy ones with Him.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] On that day there will be no light; the sunlight and moonlight will diminish.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] It will be a day known ⌊only⌋ to Yahweh, without day or night, but there will be light at evening.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea, in summer and winter alike.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] On that day Yahweh will become King over all the earth—Yahweh alone, and His name alone.
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Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Has Jesus raised us up yet?
Well we see what YOU say those verses mean, let us now look at those verses and see if they are clear that we have been raised with HIm in a Spiritual resurrection.
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. (NO) How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (You should NOT live in sin)
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (NOTICE it does not say we are raised from the dead also, either physically or spiritually. That is what you ADD to the verse to fit your own belief.)
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, (dying to sin) we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: (NOTICE, it does NOT say we ARE resurrrected, Physically or Spiritually, that is what you ADD to the verse so as to not change your belief to match Scriptures)
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth (from now on) we should not serve sin. (obey it)
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also (future tense) live with him: (we believe that we SHALL ALSO one day in the Future live and reign with Him)
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, (NOT live in it) but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. (DO NOT obey sin)
And let us look at Eph 2:5-7
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: (NOT saying we are raised up ourselves, but through Christ, because He is in Heaven and we are ONE with Him, that is why we through Him have been raised, because He is raised, NOT that we are physically or spiritually raised ourselves)
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
We ourselves do not sit in Heavenly places, but we through Jesus Christ sit in Heavenly places because Jesus is in Heaven, speaking on our behalf. We are ONE with Him. This does not mean we, ourselves, are raised up and sit with Jesus in Heaven, not even Spiritually. If i am in the Spirit, then i can see Heaven, but our Spirit is within us, and that Spirit if it belong to Christ, is the part of the Kingdom of Heaven, therefore that is why it is written the Kingdom of Heaven is within you. But you do error in teaching that we are already raised and reigning with Christ, this is NOT True, nor is it Scriptural. But so you don't have to change your belief you must come up with a Spiritual raising, a Spiritual reigning with Him, a Spiritual Heaven, so as to not change your doctrine that you teach.
Now Jesus Christ is reigning IN HEAVEN, because that is where He is at, right now. But He is not reigning on the Earth. Not even Spiritually. When He comes to reign on the Earth, He will reign with a rod of iron, with Power, with Force, with Authority. He does not reign right now with a rod of iron. You do error not knowing the Scriptures, nor believing what God has told me concerning this matter.
Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
You do not understand what risen this is speaking of, you THINK it is risen with Christ to be WITH Him in a spiritual realm, yes? But this risen with Christ is like a resurrection risen, we are now Born again, Saved, no longer LOST, we are no longer an old man, but we being risen with Christ, are now a New Man in Christ, and New Creature. All those who accept Him are risen with Him because of His resurrection of the dead. We were all dead at one time, but now live because we are risen with Him. That does NOT mean we are Spiritually risen with Him, to be with Him NOW. We are not risen with Him to Heaven. we are risen with Him like His resurrection risen, but not like His risen to go to Heaven. Read the verses after Col 3:1
Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
When are we WITH HIM? When He shall appear. But you say we are with Him NOW, reigning with Him Now, and to make this work and fit into your belief, you say "We are SPIRITUALLY with Him, and SPIRITUALLY reigning with Him" Where in all of Scriptures does it teach anything remotely like what you are teaching. Where is this SPIRITUAL Heaven, written at. Where does it teach about we are Spiritually reigning with Him? Where does it teach that we are Spiritually reigning with Him? All these things are doctrines of men, and not of God. i know it is what you believe, but what you believe does not line up with any Scriptures. Believe what God has told me, and stop relying on your own interpretations of Scriptures. my interpretations of Scriptures is dung. Your interpretation of Scriptures is dung. Scholars interpretations of Scriptures is dung. Preachers interpretations of Scriptures is dung. Interpretations belong to God, NOT TO MEN.
Is it not true, that Scriptures interprets Scriptures?
- II Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
- Isaiah 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
- Genesis 40:8 And they said unto him, We have dreamed a dream, and there is no interpreter of it. And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong to God? tell me them, I pray you.
- Genesis 41:16 And Joseph answered Pharaoh, saying, It is not in me: God shall give Pharaoh an answer of peace.
^i^ responding to part of post 1483
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A
This just barely touches the subject, but is related. We're going through a study in Revelation, okay. But, the instructor...our pastor firmly asserts that all of revelation is history, and was not or never intended to be meant for us today. If it helps to clarify this, he is amillenial and a preterist.
P
(quote)"Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." This and a companion passage in John 20:23 are sometimes used to teach that Peter and his supposed successors were given the authority to forgive sins. We know that this cannot be so; only God can forgive sins.
[/FONT]There are two ways of understanding the verse. First, it may mean that the apostles had power to bind and to loose that we do not have today. For example, Peter bound their sins on Ananias and Sapphira so that they were punished with instant death (Acts 5:1-10), while Paul loosed the disciplined man in Corinth from the consequences of his sin because the man had repented (2 Cor. 2:10).
Or the verse may mean that whatever the apostles bound or loosed on earth must have already been bound or loosed in heaven (see NKJV margin). Thus Ryrie says, "Heaven, not the apostles, initiates all binding and loosing, while the apostles announce these things."
The only way in which the verse is true today is in a declarative sense. When a sinner truly repents of his sins and receives Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, a Christian can declare that person's sins to be forgiven. When a sinner rejects the Savior, a Christian worker can declare his sins to be retained. William Kelly writes, "Whenever the Church acts in the name of the Lord and really does His will, the stamp of God is upon their deeds."
Believer's Bible Commentary: A Thorough, Yet Easy-to-Read Bible Commentary That Turns Complicated Theology Into Practical Understanding.[/quote]
Now perhaps the English words Binding and Loosing, carry too strong of a meaning to be correctly understood in English. Here is what an excerpt from Sid Roth's site, a Messianic Christian's.
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Like I told you before,it has nothing at all to do with sin.
You are cessationist and so anything to do with the prophetic or power has to be downplayed.
It has to do with stopping the enemy and his activity.
It is similar to the prayer of agreement.(another powerful tool Jesus left us)
But hey,if you are comfortable with the enemy running over folks,tell him to have at it!
Binding/loosing can be put as "allowing /disallowing"
IOW,whatever you put up with is your level of victory.
Look it up in the Greek
Bind means prohibit.
P
Ok,jettison "charismatics" and "john Mcarthur" for a moment and ponder this;
25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
Stop stereotyping pple and force fitting .
You act like folks are batting the air,when the enemy is running all over families and 2/3 of the planets humanoids,and you are there to stop to those who dare confront the enemy?
You really believe we have zero power over satan? We as believers have no authority (keys of the kingdom)?
You know what a Key does?
25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
Stop stereotyping pple and force fitting .
You act like folks are batting the air,when the enemy is running all over families and 2/3 of the planets humanoids,and you are there to stop to those who dare confront the enemy?
You really believe we have zero power over satan? We as believers have no authority (keys of the kingdom)?
You know what a Key does?
DiscipleDave asked
lol, you think i am the one doing this? Do you not think you are reigning with Jesus Christ RIGHT NOW? Do you not think you are sitting with Him in Heaven RIGHT NOW? YOU THINK, Spiritual resurrection, is being BORN AGAIN, NEW MAN, NEW CREATURE, NEW HEART. The Spirit that is in you, is still in you, it is NOT with Jesus, It is NOT in a Spiritual Heaven, it is NOT reigning with Jesus Christ right now. The Spirit that is in you, is still in you, and has not gone anywhere. UNLESS God takes your spirit out of your body (Hence what is Called being IN THE SPIRIT) There are so many flaws in what you believe i don't even know where to start. How can your spirit be in a Spiritual Heavenly realm without going through Judgement Day to determine if you are worthy enough to be in that Spiritual Heaven? Show me ONE verse in all of Scriptures that speak of a Spiritual Heaven? or Spiritually reigning with Christ, These are teachings that come from men and not from God. God does not teach a Spiritual Heaven, men teach that. Men have come up with all sorts of false doctrines, to get the children away from the Truth of God and His Word.
DiscipleDave asks Lies. You are NOT seated there right now, physically or spiritually. What you say here is a lie. Your spirit did not leave your body and went to Heaven while you were typing that statement. Your spirit was within you, NOT in Heaven. Now through Christ we do sit in Heaven, because we are ONE with Christ. We sit in Heavenly place IN CHRIST. Know you not at all what that means. We ourselves do not sit in Heaven, but we sit in Heaven because Christ is there, and we are ONE with Him. i can speak to the Father in Heaven, not because i directly speak to Him, but because through Jesus who speaks with Him for me. We are told to pray to the Father, NOT because we are able to do that, but IN CHRIST we are able to do that because He shall speak to Him for us. We ourselves are not sitting in Heavenly places, but IN CHRIST we can, because Jesus is in Heaven right NOW. We are NOT, neither is our Spirit is in Heaven either. Know you not that flesh and blood shall not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven? It is our spirits that enter into Heaven, and those spirits will get Heavenly fleshly bodies (Glorified Bodies) that can't die, immortal. The spirit that is in you, is immortal, it can't die or be killed, that is why our spirits {After the Great White Throne Judgement Day} will either go to one of two places, With God or without God. There is no other.
Combat Spiritual hosts of wickedness in Heavenly places, Heavenly places you say, what does the Word of God say?
Eph 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Do you not see what you do continually? You change Scriptures to fit your belief. The verse does not say Heavenly places, that is what you say, because that is what YOU believe, the verse teaches high places, which if you ever read the old testament, you would know what the high places are. They are places where people would worship false gods, on hills, mountains, HIGH PLACES and the such. You have altogether CHANGED that verse to fit into your OWN belief, changing "high places" to mean "Heavenly Places" You should not do this wicked thing, it only corrupts the Truth that you THINK you have. Instead change your belief to match Scriptures, DO NOT change Scriptures to match your belief. which is Exactly what you have done with this verse and other verses as well.
What Scripture teaches that? one verse would be sufficient.
You say you have been raised WITH Christ, the verse actually say we have been raised IN CHRIST. Big difference.
How can you seek spiritual things, when you do not believe what God has told me? and then you twist Scriptures to fit your own interpretations of what YOU THINK the Truth is.
Will you not hearken to the Truth when it is given unto you? Will you continue to believe the lies that you hold on too, even when the Truth is given to you.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (This has not yet happened, are you saying the Mark of the Beast has already happened?)
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Believe Scriptures, not what men teach.
DiscipleDave asks Have i not been straight forward with you? What i tell you, are not my interpretations, i do not interpret the Word of God, as if i was worthy enough to interpret the Word of the Living God Himself. What i teach is from God, NOT from mine own interpretations, form my own studies, from my own intellect. What i teach is NOT from me, nor is it mine. What i teach is from God, what He has told me. i think i have been clear on this point. How evil would i be, if i took credit for something that did not come from me? What i tell you is NOT my interpretation, what i tell you is from God.
DiscipleDave asks 1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
That is what the Word of God plainly teaches. What does valiant teach if she can change Scriptures.
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priest, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. (Please note this Holy Inspired by God verse has been CHANGED)
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priest, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: (Please note this Holy Inspired by God verse has been CHANGED)
We are NOT priests. Jesus Christ is our PRIEST, and since we are ONE with Him, we are then a part of that same priesthood, NOT priests our own self, like you teach.
You call me ignorant? Yet you do not even know what it is to be a priest. Without a Temple, there is no priests. Only when a Temple is present, are there any priests. There is not Temple on Earth, therefore no priests on Earth. Jesus is our Priest in Heaven, because there is a Temple in Heaven, that Temple will come down to the Earth in the New City Jerusalem with the Father, and the Son, and the Saints will inhabit it. And we will reign with Jesus over the entire World, the humans that will be living on the Earth. Jesus is our High Priest, and since we are His, and One with Him, we belong to that same priesthood, right now. But we do not become Kings and priests with Him, until He Returns to the Earth and takes us up with Him, then at that time, we will reign with Him, and then and only then do we become Kings, and Priests of God Himself.
DiscipleDave asks You did not answer the question. If you say you reign with Christ right now, like you teach. my question is who do YOU (valiant) reign over? Will you sidestep the question, or answer it this time?
DiscipleDave asks This is True, are you saying you are NOW a SAINT? Because you say you reign with Christ right NOW, does that mean you are a SAINT right NOW? So tell me, is the whole Earth answerable to YOU, right now?
You LIVE with CHRIST? Christ is in Heaven, you are on Earth, your Spirit that is in you, is also here on Earth, How then do you say you are living WITH Christ? We will live with Him, when He returns with the place that He is preparing for His Saints that will be raptured up with Him, It is ONLY then do with actually LIVE WITH JESUS.
True, this happens when we reign with Christ? And since you say you reign with Christ NOW, tell me do the Angels answer to you NOW?
1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
When do we judge Angels valiant? NOW? Or when we reign with Christ? When we do reign with Christ, that is when we shall judge Angels. Or will you now say, you do just Angels but only spiritually judge them? because you are Spiritually reigning with Jesus right NOW, you are Spiritually LIVING WITH Jesus right NOW, you are a Spiritual priest NOW, and you are now spiritually sitting next to Him in Heaven? All the while you are sitting there reading this, and your spirit is within you, and has gone nowhere at all?
Please do not think i am angry or the such, that is not what i am. i come across as rude of speech, it is not my intentions to come across that way. Instead of reading what i write as if i am angry, yelling, upset, instead read what i have said as if in a soft, calm tone. The worse things about message boards, is people have a tendency to read something said in the worse way it could have been read. What i teach is always in love, and kindness. i never say things to hurt or to offend anyone at all, but i teach the Truth, in hopes that you will turn from false doctrines to the Truth of Scriptures, not the Truth of me, but the Truth of God and what His Word says and teaches. i love you valiant, i really do, why else would i spend so much time talking with you? It is my hope that you will believe God and change what you believe to match with what Scriptures teach. and not you only, but all. i would that all would believe the things God told me, because they are TRUTH.
^i^ responding to post 1483
DiscipleDave asks Lies. You are NOT seated there right now, physically or spiritually. What you say here is a lie. Your spirit did not leave your body and went to Heaven while you were typing that statement. Your spirit was within you, NOT in Heaven. Now through Christ we do sit in Heaven, because we are ONE with Christ. We sit in Heavenly place IN CHRIST. Know you not at all what that means. We ourselves do not sit in Heaven, but we sit in Heaven because Christ is there, and we are ONE with Him. i can speak to the Father in Heaven, not because i directly speak to Him, but because through Jesus who speaks with Him for me. We are told to pray to the Father, NOT because we are able to do that, but IN CHRIST we are able to do that because He shall speak to Him for us. We ourselves are not sitting in Heavenly places, but IN CHRIST we can, because Jesus is in Heaven right NOW. We are NOT, neither is our Spirit is in Heaven either. Know you not that flesh and blood shall not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven? It is our spirits that enter into Heaven, and those spirits will get Heavenly fleshly bodies (Glorified Bodies) that can't die, immortal. The spirit that is in you, is immortal, it can't die or be killed, that is why our spirits {After the Great White Throne Judgement Day} will either go to one of two places, With God or without God. There is no other.
Combat Spiritual hosts of wickedness in Heavenly places, Heavenly places you say, what does the Word of God say?
Eph 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Do you not see what you do continually? You change Scriptures to fit your belief. The verse does not say Heavenly places, that is what you say, because that is what YOU believe, the verse teaches high places, which if you ever read the old testament, you would know what the high places are. They are places where people would worship false gods, on hills, mountains, HIGH PLACES and the such. You have altogether CHANGED that verse to fit into your OWN belief, changing "high places" to mean "Heavenly Places" You should not do this wicked thing, it only corrupts the Truth that you THINK you have. Instead change your belief to match Scriptures, DO NOT change Scriptures to match your belief. which is Exactly what you have done with this verse and other verses as well.
What Scripture teaches that? one verse would be sufficient.
You say you have been raised WITH Christ, the verse actually say we have been raised IN CHRIST. Big difference.
How can you seek spiritual things, when you do not believe what God has told me? and then you twist Scriptures to fit your own interpretations of what YOU THINK the Truth is.
Will you not hearken to the Truth when it is given unto you? Will you continue to believe the lies that you hold on too, even when the Truth is given to you.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (This has not yet happened, are you saying the Mark of the Beast has already happened?)
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Believe Scriptures, not what men teach.
DiscipleDave asks Have i not been straight forward with you? What i tell you, are not my interpretations, i do not interpret the Word of God, as if i was worthy enough to interpret the Word of the Living God Himself. What i teach is from God, NOT from mine own interpretations, form my own studies, from my own intellect. What i teach is NOT from me, nor is it mine. What i teach is from God, what He has told me. i think i have been clear on this point. How evil would i be, if i took credit for something that did not come from me? What i tell you is NOT my interpretation, what i tell you is from God.
DiscipleDave asks 1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
That is what the Word of God plainly teaches. What does valiant teach if she can change Scriptures.
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priest, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. (Please note this Holy Inspired by God verse has been CHANGED)
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priest, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: (Please note this Holy Inspired by God verse has been CHANGED)
We are NOT priests. Jesus Christ is our PRIEST, and since we are ONE with Him, we are then a part of that same priesthood, NOT priests our own self, like you teach.
You call me ignorant? Yet you do not even know what it is to be a priest. Without a Temple, there is no priests. Only when a Temple is present, are there any priests. There is not Temple on Earth, therefore no priests on Earth. Jesus is our Priest in Heaven, because there is a Temple in Heaven, that Temple will come down to the Earth in the New City Jerusalem with the Father, and the Son, and the Saints will inhabit it. And we will reign with Jesus over the entire World, the humans that will be living on the Earth. Jesus is our High Priest, and since we are His, and One with Him, we belong to that same priesthood, right now. But we do not become Kings and priests with Him, until He Returns to the Earth and takes us up with Him, then at that time, we will reign with Him, and then and only then do we become Kings, and Priests of God Himself.
DiscipleDave asks You did not answer the question. If you say you reign with Christ right now, like you teach. my question is who do YOU (valiant) reign over? Will you sidestep the question, or answer it this time?
DiscipleDave asks This is True, are you saying you are NOW a SAINT? Because you say you reign with Christ right NOW, does that mean you are a SAINT right NOW? So tell me, is the whole Earth answerable to YOU, right now?
You LIVE with CHRIST? Christ is in Heaven, you are on Earth, your Spirit that is in you, is also here on Earth, How then do you say you are living WITH Christ? We will live with Him, when He returns with the place that He is preparing for His Saints that will be raptured up with Him, It is ONLY then do with actually LIVE WITH JESUS.
Even angels will answer to me (1 Cor 6.3)
(1 Cor 6.3)
1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
When do we judge Angels valiant? NOW? Or when we reign with Christ? When we do reign with Christ, that is when we shall judge Angels. Or will you now say, you do just Angels but only spiritually judge them? because you are Spiritually reigning with Jesus right NOW, you are Spiritually LIVING WITH Jesus right NOW, you are a Spiritual priest NOW, and you are now spiritually sitting next to Him in Heaven? All the while you are sitting there reading this, and your spirit is within you, and has gone nowhere at all?
Please do not think i am angry or the such, that is not what i am. i come across as rude of speech, it is not my intentions to come across that way. Instead of reading what i write as if i am angry, yelling, upset, instead read what i have said as if in a soft, calm tone. The worse things about message boards, is people have a tendency to read something said in the worse way it could have been read. What i teach is always in love, and kindness. i never say things to hurt or to offend anyone at all, but i teach the Truth, in hopes that you will turn from false doctrines to the Truth of Scriptures, not the Truth of me, but the Truth of God and what His Word says and teaches. i love you valiant, i really do, why else would i spend so much time talking with you? It is my hope that you will believe God and change what you believe to match with what Scriptures teach. and not you only, but all. i would that all would believe the things God told me, because they are TRUTH.
^i^ responding to post 1483
P
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif].[/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]I wonder how the devil keeps entering the binding and loosing dynamic??[/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Jesus forgiving the devil?(since it is some legal dynamic Jesus will surely clarify later huh?)[/FONT]
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif].[/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]I wonder how the devil keeps entering the binding and loosing dynamic??[/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Jesus forgiving the devil?(since it is some legal dynamic Jesus will surely clarify later huh?)[/FONT]
Hi DiscipleDave,
Regarding what Valiant said: I'd like to add that there is no such thing as "spiritual resurrection". The word translated resurrection is "anastasis" which always refers to a "bodily resurrection" that is, a standing up again, Jesus' bodily resurrection being our example. Here is the definition of the word "Anastasis".
386 anástasis (from 303 /aná, "up, again" and 2476 /hístēmi, "to stand") – literally, "stand up" (or "stand again"), referring to physical resurrection (of the body).
Christ's physical resurrection is the foundation of Christianity, which also guarantees the future resurrection of all believers (see Jn 6:39,40,44).
[386 /anástasis ("resurrection") refers to the physical, bodily resurrection of Christ – and people (both of the redeemed and the unredeemed).]
That being said, resurrection always refers to the physical body standing up again. When a believer dies, scripture is clear that the spirit departs from the body and goes immediately to be in the presence of the Lord (2 Cor.5:8, Phil.1:23). At the time when the resurrection takes place, the Lord will bring with him those spirits of believers who have been in his presence and they will be reunited with their now resurrected bodies. And of course after that, those believers who are still alive at the time that the resurrection takes place will be changed into their glorified bodies and will be caught up with them.
Regarding what Valiant said: I'd like to add that there is no such thing as "spiritual resurrection". The word translated resurrection is "anastasis" which always refers to a "bodily resurrection" that is, a standing up again, Jesus' bodily resurrection being our example. Here is the definition of the word "Anastasis".
386 anástasis (from 303 /aná, "up, again" and 2476 /hístēmi, "to stand") – literally, "stand up" (or "stand again"), referring to physical resurrection (of the body).
Christ's physical resurrection is the foundation of Christianity, which also guarantees the future resurrection of all believers (see Jn 6:39,40,44).
[386 /anástasis ("resurrection") refers to the physical, bodily resurrection of Christ – and people (both of the redeemed and the unredeemed).]
That being said, resurrection always refers to the physical body standing up again. When a believer dies, scripture is clear that the spirit departs from the body and goes immediately to be in the presence of the Lord (2 Cor.5:8, Phil.1:23). At the time when the resurrection takes place, the Lord will bring with him those spirits of believers who have been in his presence and they will be reunited with their now resurrected bodies. And of course after that, those believers who are still alive at the time that the resurrection takes place will be changed into their glorified bodies and will be caught up with them.