Is the false teaching of pre-tribulation rapture, getting the power of "him" out of the way, who restrains the antichrist?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
7,377
2,082
113
Not worthy of the resurrection? RIDICILOUS. If you have the Holy Spirit you are His and you are going to the resurection of LIFE no matter what. The rapturemania has to stop.
Tell it to Jesus.

"But pray that YOU MAY BE COUNTED WORTHY to escape the things about to come upon the earth AND STAND before the son of God."

Yes try that one out.

I pray that...and watch this...you can not.


Btw....ALL those verses in the 7 letters to the 7 CHURCHES are in a WORTHY/NOT WORTHY dimension.
In fact Jesus TELLS THE UNWORTHY WHAT TO DO.
Does it say get re born again???

It could even be framed "the performance of the 7 churches and their worthiness unworthyness."
(Unfortunate for your doctrine that the prizes are recieved in heaven)...most unfortunate

That sentence by Jesus "run the race to win" is FRAMED in "recieving a prize" which is WORTHY VS UNWORTHYNESS.
(performance).

The 10 virgin parable is in fact "worthy vs unworthyness "

The "one taken/left" in mat 24 is "worthy / unworthyness "
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
7,377
2,082
113
You're demonstrating the confusion that can be created by trying to make it an allegory when it is a parable. But go ahead, people will keep doing it until Jesus comes again. If you have to see white horses in it, you are turning it into something other than a parable. You might as well say that there are only 5 people saved.
Lol

Re read my post.

You completely missed the point.

And btw ...all parables are allegory.
What are you doing???
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
7,377
2,082
113
You're demonstrating the confusion that can be created by trying to make it an allegory when it is a parable. But go ahead, people will keep doing it until Jesus comes again. If you have to see white horses in it, you are turning it into something other than a parable. You might as well say that there are only 5 people saved.
Under this strangeness we can not unpack anything


All logic or biblical applications are gone under your allow/not allow method.

Totally abstract.
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
7,377
2,082
113
Btw reframing my point is to accomplish what ????
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
4,535
2,606
113
No, I don’t think it has been happening for a long time...these people were beheaded.

Where in the Middle East was it majority Christian? You must be forgetting that God said Ishmael will be a nation too.

I’m not sure what you are talking about that everything in Revelation was in John’s future but not everything is in ours?
it doesn't sound like you have any familiarity with Middle Eastern history & I'm not sure this is the thread to delve into that.
Briefly, The Middle East became majority Christian after the 1st century. Millions of them along with Jews of the diaspora where beheaded during the Islamic conquest of the Middle East starting in the 7th century. The choice for non-Muslims is conversion, enslavement or death.

How can you not understand John the Apostle lived nearly 2000 years before us?
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
4,535
2,606
113
Thank you brother, I got sick today, my bile lever or something rose up, I get that way every once in a while where it feels like I have a concrete block in my stomach all day. Once I chucked it up and drank some Apple Cider Vinegar I got to feeling a little better.

I think my diabetes pills cause it to happen every once n a while. They feed us poison, and our liver is overburdened.
It sounds like a horrible thing to deal with. :eek: I hope you continue to recover to a manageable standard today.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
4,535
2,606
113
It is a parable.
A parable has a "take away"

The take away is not that there are 10 brides or that only 10 people are being addressed.

Just as the parable can be corrupted, it can be taken also for what it is..an illustration.
Jesus said parables were given in code. Actually designed to be misinterpreted by those not family.
Only by the spirit is it inpacked.

It is easy to spot those that corrupt it.

They micro manage it and remove the facts from the story.

Jesus personally unpacked some of them.
Oh come on. Micro-managing? I pointed out the FACT that there is no bride in the parable.
Who said there were 10 of them?

There is a theory that is constantly referring to this one parable as a proof-text for an early resurrection based on a bride.
The bride isn't even highlighted in the parable. Yes or no? I can't remove a bride who isn't there to begin with.
You seem to feel free to add her though. That is because pre-trib teachers have taught you to lean on this verse more than
many others to support a doctrine.
 
Mar 21, 2009
3,958
1,527
113
New York
Lol

Re read my post.

You completely missed the point.

And btw ...all parables are allegory.
What are you doing???
Allegories are a different literary form than a parable. This is something that is hammered home in bible college classes. Much confusion has been taught in the history of the church by trying to interpret a parable as an allegory.
Knowing the difference will help identify the intended message.
This is definitely a parable. It takes something out of common life and drives home a message. It is obvious that the message is to be ready and that there will not be time to "make things right" if you are not ready.
People need to realize that the true Gospel does not allow for a "make things right" when the trumpet blows, scenario. Now if you want to turn it into an allegory you would have to make it a pretrib rapture since the 5 foolish go off to buy oil and that would not fit into a post trib allegory. And why are they sleeping during the outpouring of the wrath of God upon the earth to destroy large percentages of mankind on the earth?
But if you take it as a parable it is simply a lesson out of daily customary life of the Jewish wedding scenario that worked for explaining how people can't bank on waiting to get ready before Jesus comes again because you are always in danger of having waited too late.
But from what I have read people in the first century were more familiar with the use of parables and knew to listen for the "clencher" the "lesson" , the "Ah Ha! moment" that was usually toward the end or at the end. In this case Jesus actually tells them the lesson just in case they didn't get it. "Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh."
 

Lisamn

Active member
Dec 29, 2020
795
221
43
They had light. Only belivers do
They are virgins. Pure undefined. Only believers are
They had oil. Oil is a type of the Holy Spirit.
They fellowships with belivers.
They were waiting for Jesus return.

Jesus said "I know you not"

Mary did not "know" a man


"Know" is used for intimacy.
The foolish were carnal Christian's. Saved but carnal.
Not worthy.
Um..no.
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:7-13‬ ‭
Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps. The foolish said to the prudent, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ But the prudent answered, ‘No, there will not be enough for us and you too; go instead to the dealers and buy some for yourselves.’ And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut. Later the other virgins also came, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open up for us.’ But he answered, ‘Truly I say to you, I do not know you.’ Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour.​

The foolish didn’t have enough oil..asked the prudent for some and they said go get some for yourselves...so they don’t even help the foolish.
Then as the foolish were gone, Jesus came and they weren’t there to go with him and the door was shut. Means that they aren’t saved with the prudent...they missed their opportunity,

Then they went to the door and asked for Jesus to open up and He didn’t saying He never knew them. The lesson is to be on the alert because you don’t know the day or the hour of his return..and you have to be ready, the foolish weren’t ready.
 

Lisamn

Active member
Dec 29, 2020
795
221
43
it doesn't sound like you have any familiarity with Middle Eastern history & I'm not sure this is the thread to delve into that.
Briefly, The Middle East became majority Christian after the 1st century. Millions of them along with Jews of the diaspora where beheaded during the Islamic conquest of the Middle East starting in the 7th century. The choice for non-Muslims is conversion, enslavement or death.

How can you not understand John the Apostle lived nearly 2000 years before us?
I was just trying to figure out when the Middle East could have become mostly Christian..are you talking about Constantine who favored Christianity? Though was it real Christianity? I was thinking mostly about the Ottoman Empire.


I do understand that John lived before us...but I also understand that his vision was for the end times..which we happen to be getting closer and closer to.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
4,535
2,606
113
I was just trying to figure out when the Middle East could have become mostly Christian..are you talking about Constantine who favored Christianity? Though was it real Christianity? I was thinking mostly about the Ottoman Empire.


I do understand that John lived before us...but I also understand that his vision was for the end times..which we happen to be getting closer and closer to.
The Syrians, Lebanese, Persians, Coptic Christians (Egypt). The Byzantine Church. The Assyrians of Iraq & SE Turkey. The Armenians, Greek Orthodox to name some.
 

Lisamn

Active member
Dec 29, 2020
795
221
43
The Syrians, Lebanese, Persians, Coptic Christians (Egypt). The Byzantine Church. The Assyrians of Iraq & SE Turkey. The Armenians, Greek Orthodox to name some.
Aren’t those all offshoots of catholocism though?
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
4,535
2,606
113
Aren’t those all offshoots of catholocism though?
Not really, the Syrian Church was planted by the Apostles (Acts).

Why should it matter anyway. Just because we disagree with some of the Orthodox theology doesn't mean they aren't Christian. People slain because they refuse to deny Jesus can't all be exempt from salvation because they had a statue a later sect of Evangelicals don't like. ;)
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
4,535
2,606
113
Yes let's look at it

4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

100% in harmony with the pretrib rapture.

Read it without the spin.

But you still are not factoring in the rapture verses or even the purpose of the gathering of the bride or the purpose of the gt.

(As if one verse cancels 5)
I am reading it without spin. You are refusing to do so.
You're so tangled up in that false doctrine that you refuse to accept a plain reading of scripture.

This passage is a BIG problem for a pre-trib theory. Crushes it entirely.
 

Lisamn

Active member
Dec 29, 2020
795
221
43
Not really, the Syrian Church was planted by the Apostles (Acts).

Why should it matter anyway. Just because we disagree with some of the Orthodox theology doesn't mean they aren't Christian. People slain because they refuse to deny Jesus can't all be exempt from salvation because they had a statue a later sect of Evangelicals don't like. ;)
Its how they worship...do they do the mass where they literally think they eat the flesh of Jesus and drink his blood when they eat the wafer and drink the wine. Is that Biblical and would that make them Christians? We who are saved are saved by the once for all sacrifice of Jesus..so believing what they believe is wrong. Then there’s the Mary worship...God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit...Mary is not included in that nor did she herself think she was, she was humbled that God chose her and was blessed for it.

If a church is teaching these things as truth...can they or their offshoots be the truth? The Bible says a little leavens the whole lump of dough. Its not a good thing. They may know the name of Jesus..but they don’t know what He really means. The sad thing is they think they know the truth but they don’t..they like their traditions more than the truth.
 

Rondonmon

Senior Member
May 13, 2016
395
41
28
Firstfruits is Jesus and those patriarchs resurrected that were seen walking in Jerusalem.

They went to heaven with Jesus. That is the firstfruits of the 1st resurrection.

Harvest is three or four parts depending on how you count "corners and gleaners"

Firstfruits always counts as the first of main harvest
Jesus was the firstfruits of the grave. Israel was the firstfruits of THE FAITH. If you read Daniel 12, you will understand that the Jewish peoples will be raised at the VERY END, after the Rapture, and during or at the end of the 70th week, when Micheal stands up for the children of Israel, we see that exact same event in Rev. ch. 12.

Dan. 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

So when are they raised up again brother? At the very end, when Micheal STAND UP ad protects Israel, the Angel of the Lord God. Daniel is told as much in the last verse in Daniel.

13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

The scriptures lead us unto the truth brother, sometimes we get anomalies in the scriptures and have to DIG DEEPER to find out the truths of God. Such as the multitude in Rev. 7:9-17 coming out of the GREAT TRIBULATION, John, in this case, is describing the GREAT TRIBULATION, via which is the greatest period, as in 2000>7. Jesus told us all time on earth is tribulation, but we have limited what can be GREAT to a 3.5 year period of time, and this is just men's false understandings, God can and did describe both as great, one is the GREATEST TROUBLES EVER and the other is the GREATER LENGTH od the two periods. All-time is tribulation. How do I know this is true? Because I tested it like we should all do. Those under the altar at the 5th seal are SPECIFICALLY TOLD, they must wait until their brothers die in just the like manner as they did, this means they must endure the Beast 42 month rule, just like they did, no one from the tribulation (70th-week tribulation) is going to Heaven, and we can confirm this by reading Rev. 20:4, ONLY THOSE who refused the Mark of the Beast and died, are judged AFTER Jesus' return, here n Rev. 20:4, thus they NEVER went to heaven, they are judged after Jesus Christ's return, so those seen in Rev. 20:4 can have only come out of the 2000 some odd year Church Age Tribulation period that saw MILLIONS of Christians die for the name of Christ Jesus. Those in 20:4 SPECIFICALLY are told, they (ONLY THEY) will live and reign ON EARTH with Jesus for 1000 years, meaning the rest of us n doubt go back to Heaven, I would guess to help finish off New Jerusalem. These facts have to be dug out, then tested brother. But that can be accomplished, that is why there is no arguments against TRUE TRUTHS.
 

Rondonmon

Senior Member
May 13, 2016
395
41
28
Um..no.
Matthew‬ ‭25:8-12‬ ‭
The foolish said to the prudent, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ But the prudent answered, ‘No, there will not be enough for us and you too; go instead to the dealers and buy some for yourselves.’ And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut. Later the other virgins also came, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open up for us.’ But he answered, ‘Truly I say to you, I do not know you.’”​
‭‭
Yes. I think they are 5 fake Christians, who had not the Spirit of God living in them. The Holy Spirit is likened unto oil here, thus they will have to make a choice during the tribulation.

Does anyone think these people in Congress, who are thieves, pro-abortion, liars, and call themselves Christians are of Christ? LOL
 

Rondonmon

Senior Member
May 13, 2016
395
41
28
I disagree. We will never be done with the mission of sharing the gospel. Even in Mark 13 we see that we shall go before kings and rulers. It’s not going to be Christians running for their lives..but standing for God and being martyrd for their faith...that’s us. Not newbies.
I am pre-wrath..I don’t think anyone will become Christians in God’s wrath..don’t they all harden their hearts?
I suppose some people might become Christians before that...that’s why we are still sharing the gospel to save some...but I highly doubt there will be many takers.
Well, then you disagree with Jesus who stated in Matt. 24:14 that THEN THE END WILL COME (70th week). And we see in the 70th week that the Angel preaches the Gospel, AND the Two-witnesses testify, AND the Saints are Martyred, yu disagree because it proves the Church is not in the earth at that time, and your understanding is ALL IMPORTANT, like all of us men, we tend to have that spirit of competitiveness. I was the same way until about 5 years ago when I prayed to God, "Father, why was I called to Prophecy/Preaching, and for 30 years now I still see the same thing, 100s of different understandings of Babylon, the 144,000, the Harlot, the Rapture, the Seven-Headed Beast etc. etc., why are we not all seeing the SAME TRUTH, because there is only ONE TRUTH Lord? And I got this, "You guys already know everything Ron." !! I knew then what the problem was, we as young Christians see these boos of Daniel, Revelation, Ezekiel etc. as being over our heads, so we read other MENS BOOKS, and we cling thus to Men's Traditions, and we never simply ASK God like we did whilst reading the Gospels, where we got instant answers from God (LOL). So, I forgot all ad reread all of those books, and simply asked God to show me, and He did, of course, the Holy Spirit leads us unto all truth, not other men. The Pharisees had the same problem, Jesus told them as much, that they could not see him in the scriptures, because they relied on Men's Traditions, and not the word of God, which wrote about him.

Mark 13, as I pointed out, is about the Disciples coming deaths, it is not about the 70th week. Matt. 24:1-14 has nothing to do with the 70th week either, that is another misconception. Verses 4-6 are about 70 AD and verses 7-14 are about the Church Age.

Most people will make their decisions before the Wrath starts, but the Anti-Christ GOES FORTH Conquering on the exact same day that Gods Wrath starts, he uses the chaos as a cloak to hide his intentions, while the world is dealing with the Rev. 8 asteroid strike (God's Wrath) he Conquers Israel and the whole Mediterranean Sea Region (THE MANY), he doesn't just Conquer Israel, we can see who all he conquers in Dan. 11:40-43, and we can also see that he is not allowed to conquer Moab, Ammon, and Edom, or Central and Southern Jordan (Think the Petra & Bozrah area where the Jews flee unto). So, the real tests only come AFTER God's Wrath has started. The TIMING of these things is very important and hard to understand tbh.

God Bless.
 

Lisamn

Active member
Dec 29, 2020
795
221
43
Yes. I think they are 5 fake Christians, who had not the Spirit of God living in them. The Holy Spirit is likened unto oil here, thus they will have to make a choice during the tribulation.

Does anyone think these people in Congress, who are thieves, pro-abortion, liars, and call themselves Christians are of Christ? LOL
When the 5 foolish went out they took their lamps..they just didn’t take enough oil? Their lamps were lit but went out. And they are all called the 10 virgins...

What does that have to do with the 10 virgins...not everyone who says they’re Christians are Christians.