Is the Gift of Tongues for everyone???

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Jun 26, 2014
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#61
Can you please provide us with an example of real and fake and explain to us how you came to that conclusion? In this digital age, surely someone has filmed the real thing and put it on youtube since it seems to be so common.
ForthAngel, I can only give you scripture for how to determine real and fake. They you may judge for yourself using the word of God. Acts 2:4 tells us exactly how the real tongues happens: "as the Spirit gives utterance." When a person receives the Holy Ghost and they speak in tongues. They are not controlling it, it is the Spirit controlling it. Also, 1 Cor 14 tells us that he that speaks in an unknown tongue is speaking to God and not to men. So genuine speaking in tongues (not the gift of tongues, please don't confuse the two) only occurs during prayer. Because prayer is simply talking to God.

So ForthAngel, anyone that tells you they can speak in tongues whenever they want, and then just starts doing it if faking. Because genuine tongues only occurs when talking to God, and it is when God decides to do it, not man.
 
2

2Thewaters

Guest
#62
Here is a helpful translation that may clear thngs up

1 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially the gift of speaking what God has revealed.2 When a person speaks in another language, he doesn't speak to people but to God. No one understands him. His spirit is speaking mysteries. 3 But when a person speaks what God has revealed, he speaks to people to help them grow, to encourage them, and to comfort them. 4When a person speaks in another language, he helps himself grow. But when a person speaks what God has revealed, he helps the church grow. 5 I wish that all of you could speak in other languages, but especially that you could speak what God has revealed. The person who speaks what God has revealed is more important than the person who speaks in other languages. This is true unless he can interpret what he says to help the church grow. 6 Brothers and sisters, it wouldn't do you any good if I came to you speaking in other languages, unless I explained revelation, knowledge, prophecy, or doctrine to you. 7 Musical instruments like the flute or harp produce sounds. If there is no difference in the notes, how can a person tell what tune is being played? 8 For example, if the trumpet doesn't sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9 In the same way, if you don't speak in a way that can be understood, how will anyone know what you're saying? You will be talking into thin air. 10 No matter how many different languages there are in the world, not one of them is without meaning. 11 If I don't know what a language means, I will be a foreigner to the person who speaks it and that person will be a foreigner to me. 12 In the same way, since you're eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in them so that you help the church grow. 13 So the person who speaks in another language should pray for an interpretation of what he says. 14 If I pray in another language, my spirit prays, but my mind is not productive.15 So what does this mean? It means that I will pray with my spirit, and I will pray with my mind. I will sing psalms with my spirit, and I will sing psalms with my mind. 16 Otherwise, if you praise God only with your spirit, how can outsiders say "Amen!" to your prayer of thanksgiving? They don't know what you're saying. 17 Your prayer of thanksgiving may be very good, but it doesn't help other people grow. 18 I thank God that I speak in other languages more than any of you. 19 Yet, in order to teach others in church, I would rather say five words that can be understood than ten thousand words in another language. 20 Brothers and sisters, don't think like children. When it comes to evil, be like babies, but think like mature people. 21 God's word says, "Through people who speak foreign languages and through the mouths of foreigners I will speak to these people, but even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord." 22 So the gift of speaking in other languages is a sign for unbelievers, not for believers. The gift of speaking what God had revealed is a sign for believers, not for unbelievers. 23 Suppose the whole congregation gathers in the same place and you speak in other languages. When outsiders or unbelievers come in, won't they say that you're out of your mind? 24 Now suppose you speak what God has revealed. When unbelievers or outsiders come in you will show them where they are wrong and convince them that they are sinners. 25 The secrets in their hearts will become known, and in this way they will quickly bow with their faces touching the ground, worship God, and confess that God is truly among you.26 So what does this mean, brothers and sisters? When you gather, each person has a psalm, doctrine, revelation, another language, or an interpretation. Everything must be done to help each other grow. 27 If people speak in other languages, only two or three at the most should speak. They should do it one at a time, and someone must interpret what each person says. 28 But if an interpreter isn't present, those people should remain silent in church. They should only speak to themselves and to God. 29 Two or three people should speak what God has revealed. Everyone else should decide whether what each person said is right or wrong. 30 If God reveals something to another person who is seated, the first speaker should be silent. 31 All of you can take your turns speaking what God has revealed. In that way, everyone will learn and be encouraged. 32People who speak what God has revealed must control themselves. 33 God is not a God of disorder but a God of peace. As in all the churches of God's holy people, 34 the women must keep silent. They don't have the right to speak. They must take their place as Moses' Teachings say. 35 If they want to know anything they should ask their husbands at home. It's shameful for a woman to speak in church. 36 Did God's word originate with you? Are you the only ones it has reached? 37 Whoever thinks that he speaks for God or that he is spiritually gifted must acknowledge that what I write to you is what the Lord commands. 38 But whoever ignores what I write should be ignored. 39 So, brothers and sisters, desire to speak what God has revealed, and don't keep anyone from speaking in other languages. 40 Everything must be done in a proper and orderly way.
 
T

The_highwayman

Guest
#63
Show us an example of a counterfeit and the real thing for comparison. Can you even tell the difference in the two? I doubt it.
The Bible says in 1 Cor 14.22-25 how to tell the difference between real and counterfeit tongues. I have watched firsthand how a single message in tongues[the gibberish kind some of you refute] be given and during the 30 seconds -2 minutes of peace and quiet that takes place as the Spirit hovers, someone interprets that message and unbelievers come to the altar themselves under the power of the Holy Ghost.

The gibberish message in tongues did not stir the unbeliever to come up and get right with God, it was the interpretation, which is another form of prophesying[speaking unto men, words of edification, exhortation and comfort] This whole interaction between man and the Holy Ghost is what we call a modern day manifestation of 1 Cor 14.24-25


Many times as I would go to pray with those that came forward they said, how did the person interpreting know what God was telling me in my heart and there is no doubt that God is real and works in your church.

It is not a prideful moment for our church, it is another confirmation of 1 Cor 14.24-25.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
[SUP]25 [/SUP]And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.


Likewise , we have witnessed someone in our congregation start speaking a foreign language and the people from that country are visiting us and they come to the altar.

During worship one Sunday evening service, One of my members looked like she had eaten a hot pepper, she was not being a distraction to anyone, she seemed flushed and was sweating a little bit and keep wringing her hands, she would close her eyes and tears would come forth, she would open her eyes and dry them and was being very thoughtful not to draw attention to herself.

She then raised her hands in the air to praise God and lowered them. Our worship leader looked at me and began backing off on the chorus and had our band play very quietly, the woman, began lifting her hands and praising and worshiping God.


I took a mic and walked to the woman who was seated about 5 rows back on the center and let her finish her worship. Before I gave the mic to her, I also noticed a man and woman, who we later confirmed where from Vietnam, stand up and begin praising the Lord quietly. Then the man begin a pleading and supplication and crying hysterically. The woman looked at me and I asked her in the mic sister, God has something on your heart he wants you to say doesn't he, she nodded in agreement. I gave her the mic and she faced the congregation began interpreting into English the Man's prayer and he was speaking in fluent Hmong.

She went on for about 2-3 minutes and suddenly the man and his wife came down to the altar with their 2 daughters. The woman, who was interpreting in Hmong for our benefit, stopped and then came up to the altar and began speaking in Hmong, led those 2 girls to Jesus and they were saved.

THe God part is that that Vietnamese family were driving back home to California and were told by the Holy Ghost to stop at our church. They spoke zero English and the woman I noticed, who is our office manager at church does not speak any language but English.

So before you go down the road you are, it might be best to get into the word and study it and not be so quick to disprove something.

God works through people today, just like he did in the OT an when Jesus was here and after the ascension . If you let God be God, you might just encounter him do God like stuff.
 
T

The_highwayman

Guest
#64
No, they spoke coherent human languages that were miraculously understood or learned by divine gifting. What you guys do today is far from a miracle and faked by even children. You can't even tell the difference if someone is faking it or not. Miracles from God are undeniable, nature defying, and unexplainable. The modern "tongues" are a fabrication. I am not calling anything satanic, those were your words, not mine. I am calling it a fake at the very least. Beyond that, it is between those practicing it and God.
The Bible tells you and teaches you how to discern between the 2, but its evident you are running on empty in the Bible knowledge tank and prefer to just attack with doctrine you get from your Sunday night small group study.

Besides, if you don't believe in tongues it's just as highly plausible you do not believe the spiritual discernment given by the Holy Ghost is for today either.

You are just vomiting doctrines and traditions.

oh and for the record, if your username is attempting to indicate a numerical value, it is spelled FOURTH, not FORTH.
 

ForthAngel

Senior Member
Aug 31, 2012
2,171
91
48
#65
The Bible tells you and teaches you how to discern between the 2, but its evident you are running on empty in the Bible knowledge tank and prefer to just attack with doctrine you get from your Sunday night small group study.

Besides, if you don't believe in tongues it's just as highly plausible you do not believe the spiritual discernment given by the Holy Ghost is for today either.

You are just vomiting doctrines and traditions.

oh and for the record, if your username is attempting to indicate a numerical value, it is spelled FOURTH, not FORTH.
The bible only speaks of one kind of tongues, and the example is at Pentecost. Anything other than that is not from God. There is no way to discern incoherent babbling because it's not a language. A person can claim to interpret, but this again is a fabrication.

There is no way to discern something that is indiscernible. True discernment would be to realize that the day of Pentecost was our biblical account of what the gifting of tongues is and realizing that what people do today is nonsense and profanity.

ForthAngel is a play on words and also a band. I know how to spell, but thanks for your condescending attempt at correcting me :)
 

Billyd

Senior Member
May 8, 2014
5,075
1,507
113
#66
Here is a helpful translation that may clear thngs up

1 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially the gift of speaking what God has revealed.2 When a person speaks in another language, he doesn't speak to people but to God. No one understands him. His spirit is speaking mysteries. 3 But when a person speaks what God has revealed, he speaks to people to help them grow, to encourage them, and to comfort them. 4When a person speaks in another language, he helps himself grow. But when a person speaks what God has revealed, he helps the church grow. 5 I wish that all of you could speak in other languages, but especially that you could speak what God has revealed. The person who speaks what God has revealed is more important than the person who speaks in other languages. This is true unless he can interpret what he says to help the church grow. 6 Brothers and sisters, it wouldn't do you any good if I came to you speaking in other languages, unless I explained revelation, knowledge, prophecy, or doctrine to you. 7 Musical instruments like the flute or harp produce sounds. If there is no difference in the notes, how can a person tell what tune is being played? 8 For example, if the trumpet doesn't sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9 In the same way, if you don't speak in a way that can be understood, how will anyone know what you're saying? You will be talking into thin air. 10 No matter how many different languages there are in the world, not one of them is without meaning. 11 If I don't know what a language means, I will be a foreigner to the person who speaks it and that person will be a foreigner to me. 12 In the same way, since you're eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in them so that you help the church grow. 13 So the person who speaks in another language should pray for an interpretation of what he says. 14 If I pray in another language, my spirit prays, but my mind is not productive.15 So what does this mean? It means that I will pray with my spirit, and I will pray with my mind. I will sing psalms with my spirit, and I will sing psalms with my mind. 16 Otherwise, if you praise God only with your spirit, how can outsiders say "Amen!" to your prayer of thanksgiving? They don't know what you're saying. 17 Your prayer of thanksgiving may be very good, but it doesn't help other people grow. 18 I thank God that I speak in other languages more than any of you. 19 Yet, in order to teach others in church, I would rather say five words that can be understood than ten thousand words in another language. 20 Brothers and sisters, don't think like children. When it comes to evil, be like babies, but think like mature people. 21 God's word says, "Through people who speak foreign languages and through the mouths of foreigners I will speak to these people, but even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord." 22 So the gift of speaking in other languages is a sign for unbelievers, not for believers. The gift of speaking what God had revealed is a sign for believers, not for unbelievers. 23 Suppose the whole congregation gathers in the same place and you speak in other languages. When outsiders or unbelievers come in, won't they say that you're out of your mind? 24 Now suppose you speak what God has revealed. When unbelievers or outsiders come in you will show them where they are wrong and convince them that they are sinners. 25 The secrets in their hearts will become known, and in this way they will quickly bow with their faces touching the ground, worship God, and confess that God is truly among you.26 So what does this mean, brothers and sisters? When you gather, each person has a psalm, doctrine, revelation, another language, or an interpretation. Everything must be done to help each other grow. 27 If people speak in other languages, only two or three at the most should speak. They should do it one at a time, and someone must interpret what each person says. 28 But if an interpreter isn't present, those people should remain silent in church. They should only speak to themselves and to God. 29 Two or three people should speak what God has revealed. Everyone else should decide whether what each person said is right or wrong. 30 If God reveals something to another person who is seated, the first speaker should be silent. 31 All of you can take your turns speaking what God has revealed. In that way, everyone will learn and be encouraged. 32People who speak what God has revealed must control themselves. 33 God is not a God of disorder but a God of peace. As in all the churches of God's holy people, 34 the women must keep silent. They don't have the right to speak. They must take their place as Moses' Teachings say. 35 If they want to know anything they should ask their husbands at home. It's shameful for a woman to speak in church. 36 Did God's word originate with you? Are you the only ones it has reached? 37 Whoever thinks that he speaks for God or that he is spiritually gifted must acknowledge that what I write to you is what the Lord commands. 38 But whoever ignores what I write should be ignored. 39 So, brothers and sisters, desire to speak what God has revealed, and don't keep anyone from speaking in other languages. 40 Everything must be done in a proper and orderly way.
1 Corinthians 14. I always recommend this chapter (emphasis on verses 27 and 28) to my brothers and sisters who claim that they speak in tongues.

ForthAngel, I have personally witnessed the reading of verses being spoken in the origional Greek or Hebrew being totally misinterpreted, and people come forward. It is great to see this happen, but I don't believe that it was the tongue spoken that brought them there. I have seen the same gibberish spoken by two different people interpreted by the same person in two different ways. In my opinion (and I emphasize opinion), tongues spoken of by Paul and Luke (in Acts) are the same. They were the native language dialect of the people hearing the message. Why would God use any other form of communication.

Yes, I believe that Christians speak in tongues, even tongues unknown to themselves, but there is always someone who communicates with that tongue. They are not the random gibberish that I have witnessed so often.

I will end with this. Please, if people are coming to know Christ, continue.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#67
It's when Jesus comes, nobody is perfect and no church is perfect.
Jesus had already come and the church will only be perfected in glory. It's the only thing not complete when Paul was writing 1 Corinthians, the completed or perfect canon of scripture.

The word translated perfect in this passage is also translated complete or mature. Limitations in the English and our understanding of the word perfect often trip us up in situations like this.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#68
I guess word of knowledge has vanished away also . . .

We still need edifying in the church and tongues with interpretation are for the edifying of the church when done decently and in order.

How is it that we see scripture 'face to face'?
Yes knowledge not learned but gifted is gone. Knowledge now is through the scriptures by the Holy Spirit opening our understanding. The apostles did not have the NT scriptures so divine help was necessary over and above that which would be acquired by study.

Face to face refers to the OT being a shadow but now the NT reveals the mysteries before hidden. Seeing clearly what and why things were set froth in the OT as a promise of the blessing to come.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
#69
When the perfect comes is talking about Love. This is is why he continues the greatest is love. This verse is used out of context to say there is no more tongues and prophesy. But that doesn't make any sense at all.

Especially since Paul goes on to say forbid no one to speak in tongues or prophesy.

As far as Acts, there is 2 miracles going on here:

1. There are hundreds of people speaking and the men heard their own language. If hundreds of people were speaking you'd have no idea what they were saying, this is 2 miracles, one they heard, two it was in their language.

2. As far as known languages being what Paul is talking about, he says no one understands him but God, he says angelic languages, he says he wishes all would speak in tongues as much as him, and he says his mind doesn't know what its saying, and finally at the end of 14 he explains the OT says that the people will not listen to God who speaks to people through stammering lips because they DON'T understand.

These things are pretty clear if you are open to the answer being yes there is tongues today. If you're not you'll find reasons to say they aren't clear.

I have written with many Scriptures showing that tongues are for today in other posts only to be ignored. So I won't repeat that pattern. If you're interested you can look into the items of discussed above. If not that's between you and the Holy Spirit, it's between you and Him anyway.

However be careful when people say that you can know everything about God through Scripture, we must have the Holy Spirit reveal His Words. It is those who follow the Spirit that are the sons of God. The Pharisees knew Scripture very well, but they didn't know the Author.

It is for this reason that I feel Paul said above all that we would speak in prophesy in churches. This is above any other gifts like miracles, healing, finances, administration, teaching, etc.

C.

1 Corinthians 14. I always recommend this chapter (emphasis on verses 27 and 28) to my brothers and sisters who claim that they speak in tongues.

ForthAngel, I have personally witnessed the reading of verses being spoken in the origional Greek or Hebrew being totally misinterpreted, and people come forward. It is great to see this happen, but I don't believe that it was the tongue spoken that brought them there. I have seen the same gibberish spoken by two different people interpreted by the same person in two different ways. In my opinion (and I emphasize opinion), tongues spoken of by Paul and Luke (in Acts) are the same. They were the native language dialect of the people hearing the message. Why would God use any other form of communication.

Yes, I believe that Christians speak in tongues, even tongues unknown to themselves, but there is always someone who communicates with that tongue. They are not the random gibberish that I have witnessed so often.

I will end with this. Please, if people are coming to know Christ, continue.
 

ForthAngel

Senior Member
Aug 31, 2012
2,171
91
48
#70
1 Corinthians 14. I always recommend this chapter (emphasis on verses 27 and 28) to my brothers and sisters who claim that they speak in tongues.

ForthAngel, I have personally witnessed the reading of verses being spoken in the origional Greek or Hebrew being totally misinterpreted, and people come forward. It is great to see this happen, but I don't believe that it was the tongue spoken that brought them there. I have seen the same gibberish spoken by two different people interpreted by the same person in two different ways. In my opinion (and I emphasize opinion), tongues spoken of by Paul and Luke (in Acts) are the same. They were the native language dialect of the people hearing the message. Why would God use any other form of communication.

Yes, I believe that Christians speak in tongues, even tongues unknown to themselves, but there is always someone who communicates with that tongue. They are not the random gibberish that I have witnessed so often.

I will end with this. Please, if people are coming to know Christ, continue.
Hi Billy. I agree with everything you said except the last part. I think we can draw the line between opinion and fact using scripture to judge the practice, and the modern tongues does not line up with the biblical account of what miraculous tongues are. The only way to claim the gibberish spoken today is a "second kind of tongues" is to put scripture against itself and rip things completely out of their context.

I disagree with the part about if it is bringing people to Christ, they should continue. While I agree that God can use some things to his advantage, faith based on what is seen, or felt, is not faith according to the bible (Romans 10:17). The modern tongues is a lawless act in opposition to the Word of God and is sight based faith. Sign chasers and miracle worshipers should all be in fear of the warnings about those deceived. There are plenty of them in the bible.

Romans 6
6 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? [SUP]2 [/SUP]By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,979
4,602
113
#71
Can you please provide us with an example of real and fake and explain to us how you came to that conclusion? In this digital age, surely someone has filmed the real thing and put it on youtube since it seems to be so common.
I am still looking for that real thing example, but counterfeit examples are plentiful, even the Mormons have filmed them.

I just found this article, that I think documents the great need to know how to tell the difference from the genuine Tongues and the psychological phenomena or demonic counterfeits:

Speaking in glossolalia actually predates the day of Pentecost in the New Testament and history records occasions of this ecstatic tongues being used by non believers. Back in 1100BC, a young "amen" worshiper became possessed by a "god" and began to make sounds just like the ecstatic tongues we hear today. Now when someone is possessed by a "god", it can only mean one thing, and that is they were possessed by a demon, or Satan. So the force behind this early incident of glossolalia was Satan.Seven hundred years later in 400BC, the Greek philosopher Plato referred to a number of people who spoke in this ecstatic tongues, while they were praying. Now the interesting thing about these incidents is that people actually got healed by practicing these utterances. Is that a sign that these utterances were actually holy and from God? No, because Satan also has the power to heal people and make them think that what they are doing is from God.In the century before Christ, Virgil described the account of the Sybilline priestess on the Island of Delos speaking in ecstatic tongues as the result of her being unified with the god Apollo. This happened while she meditated in a "haunted" cave amidst the sounds of the wind playing strange music through the crevices in the rocks. This type of account can easily be seen as being from Satan, not God.



The Mithra cult of the Persians, the Osiris cult of the Pharaohs, the Dionysian, Eulusinian,and Orphic cults cradled in Macedonia, Thrace and Greece, all record the same phenomenon of "speaking in tongues". Also, Lucian of Samosata (A.D. 120-198) describes in "De Dea Syria" an example of ecstatic tongues (glossolalia) being spoken by a "roamer", who believed in "June" the Syrian goddess. This should cause great alarm to these millions of Christians today speaking in this ecstatic tongues, that their utterances greatly resemble the ecstatic tongues spoken by the people in these ancient cults.
Now we have already shown in this website that the tongues spoken on the day of Pentecost was basically speaking in different languages of the world, not the babble we hear today. So how come we see this ecstatic tongues being used by such large numbers of people today? Well, it began to grow fairly recently in history. The first "wave" of glossolalia started in 1901 through a man named Charles Parham of Bethel College in Kansas. The second "wave" was started through a man named Dennis Bennett in the 1960's. Dennis was the rector of St Marks Episcopal (Anglican) Church. Within ten years of this, speaking in ecstatic tongues had spread to many of the major protestant churches, and by 1990 it had reached 55 million Christians, including Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Roman Catholics and many others. The third "wave" of glossolalia was through the Catholic Charismatic Renewal movement, which started in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, in 1967, by students and faculty of DuQuesne University. Then by 1993 it had influenced the lives of over 100 million Roman Catholics all over the world. The fourth "wave" was started by evangelicals in 1987 at Fuller Theological Seminary, and specifically by a man named John Wimber. As a result, by 1990, 33 million professing Christians were living in the "signs and wonders" movement.


Ecstatic Tongues not only Confined to Christianity



Believe it or not, speaking in ecstatic tongues is not just confined to Christian circles. Studies have revealed that ecstatic utterances is present in many non Christian religions all over the world. It is practiced in China, Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Indonesia, Siberia, Arabia, Burma, and Arctic regions as well as many other places. Glossolalia is found among the Eskimos, Japanese séances in Hokkaido, in a small cult led by Genji Yanagide of Moji City, the shamans in Ethiopia in the zar cult and various spirits in Haitian Voodoo, and is also found extensively in African tribal religions.So as we can clearly see, this speaking in ecstatic tongues did not come about through belief in the true Creator God, or through studying the Bible. It just happened suddenly. So we must ask, if speaking in Bible tongues is the God given ability of speaking in another world language in order to further the true gospel message, then how can this glossolalia, which many people speak who don't even know the gospel be from God? It can't be. We receive "power" from only two sources, God or Satan. It's that black and white. So if this ecstatic tongues is not from God and does not further the gospel message, then it can only be from one other source, and that is Satan.

Friend, end time Bible prophecy reveals that we are living in the end of time for this world, and these spiritual manifestations from Satan will continue to grow in number and power, deceiving "if possible, the very elect." We MUST study the Word of God in the Bible and find out the truth about these things, so that we will not be deceived. Please study this yourself and let God show you the truth, as the truth will set you free!

History of Ecstatic Tongues - Glossolalia
So it seems to me, like you are apparently implying, that we need to find a Biblical difference between what the pagans were doing in Plato's time and what Apostles did 400 years later.

Acts 2:6-8 (NIV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Utterly amazed, they asked: "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans?
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language?

Those that heard were Jews from all over the known world gathered in Jerusalem for the Fiests. The Greek word used there is "dialektos" which is not just language, but so accurate that the dialect and accent were correct too. Galileans is important to the understanding, because they were known for a thick accent.

Now every time the pagans spoke in tongues no one understood a single word in their own "dialektos", and it was explained as an unknown language that only the gods understand.

Isn't that then the obvious Biblical yardstick to be used to tell the True from the Counterfeit?

And since the pagans also referred to their tongues as a prayer language, didn't Christ forbid that?

Matthew 6:7 (NIV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.

And if we did, would we not be deliberately forsaking the model (not a memorized recitation) for all prayer that HE gave use and commanded us to do?

Matthew 6:7-15 (HCSB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] When you pray, don’t babble like the idolaters, since they imagine they’ll be heard for their many words.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Don’t be like them, because your Father knows the things you need before you ask Him.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] “Therefore,
you should pray like this: Our Father in heaven, Your name be honored as holy.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Your kingdom come. Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

[SUP]11 [/SUP] Give us today our daily bread.

[SUP]12 [/SUP] And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.

[SUP]13 [/SUP] And do not bring us into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. [For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.]


Isn't all of that what is Truly Biblical?
 
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VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,979
4,602
113
#72
The bible only speaks of one kind of tongues, and the example is at Pentecost. Anything other than that is not from God. There is no way to discern incoherent babbling because it's not a language. A person can claim to interpret, but this again is a fabrication.

There is no way to discern something that is indiscernible. True discernment would be to realize that the day of Pentecost was our biblical account of what the gifting of tongues is and realizing that what people do today is nonsense and profanity.

ForthAngel is a play on words and also a band. I know how to spell, but thanks for your condescending attempt at correcting me :)

Ahh, and I thought it was a play on my favorite Johnny Cash song written by the Statler Brothers if I remember right "The Fourth Man in the Fire":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLT1_PBPdhY
 

Apostol2013

Senior Member
Jan 27, 2013
2,105
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#73
I am still looking for that real thing example, but counterfeit examples are plentiful, even the Mormons have filmed them.

I just found this article, that I think documents the great need to know how to tell the difference from the genuine Tongues and the psychological phenomena or demonic counterfeits:



So it seems to me, like you are apparently implying, that we need to find a Biblical difference between what the pagans were doing in Plato's time and what Apostles did 400 years later.

Acts 2:6-8 (NIV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Utterly amazed, they asked: "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans?
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language?

Those that heard were Jews from all over the known world gathered in Jerusalem for the Fiests. The Greek word used there is "dialektos" which is not just language, but so accurate that the dialect and accent were correct too. Galileans is important to the understanding, because they were known for a thick accent.

Now every time the pagans spoke in tongues no one understood a single word in their own "dialektos", and it was explained as an unknown language that only the gods understand.

Isn't that then the obvious Biblical yardstick to be used to tell the True from the Counterfeit?

And since the pagans also referred to their tongues as a prayer language, didn't Christ forbid that?

Matthew 6:7 (NIV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.

And if we did, would we not be deliberately forsaking the model (not a memorized recitation) for all prayer that HE gave use and commanded us to do?

Matthew 6:7-15 (HCSB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] When you pray, don’t babble like the idolaters, since they imagine they’ll be heard for their many words.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Don’t be like them, because your Father knows the things you need before you ask Him.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] “Therefore,
you should pray like this: Our Father in heaven, Your name be honored as holy.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Your kingdom come. Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

[SUP]11 [/SUP] Give us today our daily bread.

[SUP]12 [/SUP] And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.

[SUP]13 [/SUP] And do not bring us into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. [For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.]


Isn't all of that what is Truly Biblical?
The babbling you mention in scripture are real words now to call all tongues demonic not really knowing the gift yourself or the differences because you do not understand you speak as you should not but be carefull you may find yourself commiting the unpardonable sin
 

Billyd

Senior Member
May 8, 2014
5,075
1,507
113
#74
Hi Billy. I agree with everything you said except the last part. I think we can draw the line between opinion and fact using scripture to judge the practice, and the modern tongues does not line up with the biblical account of what miraculous tongues are. The only way to claim the gibberish spoken today is a "second kind of tongues" is to put scripture against itself and rip things completely out of their context.

I disagree with the part about if it is bringing people to Christ, they should continue. While I agree that God can use some things to his advantage, faith based on what is seen, or felt, is not faith according to the bible (Romans 10:17). The modern tongues is a lawless act in opposition to the Word of God and is sight based faith. Sign chasers and miracle worshipers should all be in fear of the warnings about those deceived. There are plenty of them in the bible.

Romans 6
6 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? [SUP]2 [/SUP]By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
Your are right. I do need to be more careful. I was thinking more in terms of God may be using these rituals to bring someone to Christ. Remember, the people have also heard the Word preached, and maybe coming forward because they feel lead to do so.

My grandfather always said that he was saved by love of a young woman. My grandmother's parents would not let him marry her unless he went forward and accepted Christ. He said that he walked in the church straight to the front and told the preacher that he wanted to accept Christ. He said "I had no idea what I was doing, all that I knew was I had to do it because I was going to marry your Grandma". He told me that was the beginning of a long and wonderful walk with Christ. If were not for a Grandmother who used trickery to get him to the alter, I may not be here today.
 
Feb 21, 2012
3,794
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#75
Yes knowledge not learned but gifted is gone. Knowledge now is through the scriptures by the Holy Spirit opening our understanding. The apostles did not have the NT scriptures so divine help was necessary over and above that which would be acquired by study.

Face to face refers to the OT being a shadow but now the NT reveals the mysteries before hidden. Seeing clearly what and why things were set froth in the OT as a promise of the blessing to come.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Word of knowledge and word of wisdom is still given to us by the gift of holy spirit - it is how the spirit gives us information on things that we need help with in our lives; If I ask God something and he gives me an answer it would be in the category of word of knowledge or word of wisdom. We also need the manifestation of discerning of spirits - is that still available or is it only tongues and word of knowledge that have ceased?

Beloved, believe not every spirit but try the spirits whether they are of God becaue many false prophets are gone out into the world. . . . . I believe that would be the manifestation of discerning of spirits.

I believe 'face to face' to be when we see Jesus face to face . . . he is that which is perfect.
 

ForthAngel

Senior Member
Aug 31, 2012
2,171
91
48
#76
Word of knowledge and word of wisdom is still given to us by the gift of holy spirit - it is how the spirit gives us information on things that we need help with in our lives; If I ask God something and he gives me an answer it would be in the category of word of knowledge or word of wisdom. We also need the manifestation of discerning of spirits - is that still available or is it only tongues and word of knowledge that have ceased?

Beloved, believe not every spirit but try the spirits whether they are of God becaue many false prophets are gone out into the world. . . . . I believe that would be the manifestation of discerning of spirits.

I believe 'face to face' to be when we see Jesus face to face . . . he is that which is perfect.
You try them against scripture. It's simple. We don't need some intuition to tell us because we have the answers in our hands and free for anyone to study and see. If what they say/do doesn't line up with what is written in scripture, they aren't to be trusted. It blows my mind how many people still search for extra-biblical knowledge when all the knowledge we need has already been revealed to us.

Is the bible so lacking that people have to look to signs or outside sources for knowledge and belief? Is God's Word not sufficient? Extra-biblical knowledge and intuition is the problem with the modern church and why so many are falling away from the faith. They don't trust God's Word as sufficient so they chase every spirit that speaks to them and call it God.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,979
4,602
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#78
The babbling you mention in scripture are real words now to call all tongues demonic not really knowing the gift yourself or the differences because you do not understand you speak as you should not but be carefull you may find yourself commiting the unpardonable sin
Please let me correct you, and I apologize if my statement was not clear enough. I did not call all Charismatic tongues demonic. I said "the genuine Tongues and the psychological phenomena or demonic counterfeits. What I meant by that was psychological phenomena is something different than demonic counterfeits.

psychological phenomena = ecstatic meaningless utterances generated unwittingly by the human mind, and they account for the VAST majority of the false tongues ever manifested.

demonic counterfeits = demons actually ceasing control of the mouth of a tongues speaker the moment he or she relinquishes control of their vocal cords, actually using that person unwittingly to curse GOD or Christ right in the assembly. That is rare, but it does happen, and even I have documented that it really happened in two different congregations many years and many miles appear. I had interviewed the guest Pastor who was there both times it happened, and in both occasions, there was a separate third person who knew and understood ever word of the cursing, because it was a foreign language that they had learned years before. In BOTH occasions, everyone in the Pentecostal congregations, the congregation's Pastors, and even the congregation's interpreters, DID NOT recognize it as demonic cursing and thought it was all of GOD, and refused to believe the guest Pastor when he reported it to their Pastors. Like I said, "IT HAPPENS, RARELY, BUT STILL, NO ONE SEEMS TO KNOW THE DIFFERENCE." I capitalized that just to emphasize the point, I was not shouting.

I do not want to argue with anyone who chooses to believe in the Charismatic tongues. Jews always put lists in priority order, and you will notice that Tongues even in the first century were the least important gift. In fact they are listed after the gift of administrations, which means it was more important to be a gifted Church Secretary than one gifted with Tongues.
 
Feb 21, 2012
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#79
You try them against scripture. It's simple. We don't need some intuition to tell us because we have the answers in our hands and free for anyone to study and see. If what they say/do doesn't line up with what is written in scripture, they aren't to be trusted. It blows my mind how many people still search for extra-biblical knowledge when all the knowledge we need has already been revealed to us.

Is the bible so lacking that people have to look to signs or outside sources for knowledge and belief? Is God's Word not sufficient? Extra-biblical knowledge and intuition is the problem with the modern church and why so many are falling away from the faith. They don't trust God's Word as sufficient so they chase every spirit that speaks to them and call it God.
Well, I will rely on God to give me a word of knowledge or word of wisdom when I have a specific area in my life that I need help with. I trust God's word completely. . . You can call it "Extra-biblical knowledge and intuition" - I will except if for what it is word of wisdom and word of knowledge coming from God via the gift of holy spirit. I have a relationship with my heavenly Father in which I talk to him and he talks to me.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,979
4,602
113
#80
ForthAngel, I can only give you scripture for how to determine real and fake. They you may judge for yourself using the word of God. Acts 2:4 tells us exactly how the real tongues happens: "as the Spirit gives utterance." When a person receives the Holy Ghost and they speak in tongues. They are not controlling it, it is the Spirit controlling it. Also, 1 Cor 14 tells us that he that speaks in an unknown tongue is speaking to God and not to men. So genuine speaking in tongues (not the gift of tongues, please don't confuse the two) only occurs during prayer. Because prayer is simply talking to God.

So ForthAngel, anyone that tells you they can speak in tongues whenever they want, and then just starts doing it if faking. Because genuine tongues only occurs when talking to God, and it is when God decides to do it, not man.

But doesn't that contradict these verses?

Matthew 6:7-15 (HCSB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]When you pray, don’t babble like the idolaters,
since they imagine they’ll be heard for their many words.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Don’t be like them,
because your Father knows the things you need before you ask Him.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]“Therefore,
you should pray like this:
Our Father in heaven, Your name be honored as holy.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Your kingdom come. Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]Give us today our daily bread.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And do not bring us into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. [For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.]

Didn't HE give us that as a model for ALL prayer, not one to be memorized and recited mindlessly?