Is the GREAT CITY in BABYLON, actually in Babylon, in Rev. 18?

[eternally-gratefull]

I understand that, but I SEE IT, NOT A TWO SIDED COIN, BUT as GOD confronting Mother of the World's Spiritual Harlotry, AND The CITY more involved with GREED in the world, which HE called Idolatry


Colossians 3:5 (CSBBible)
5 Therefore, put to death what belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desire, and greed, which is idolatry.


Do not get the impression that I am mad at you. In fact I tried to end it a few posts back, BUT I decided it was TOO MUCH FUN to Debate you on this subject, not to continue. I know that the NAME OF THE CITY, is pure speculation, and ULTIMATELY GOD WILL HAVE HIS WORD FIT WHAT WAS PROPHESIED TO THE LETTER, WHEN IT IS ALL SAID AND DONE WITH.

Today's Sermon at Church was Rev. 18, and I knew it was coming, which started this thread. His Sermon was a little bit of a let down for me, as he did not even mention the two verses that indicate that the CITY, had to have a DEEP WATER PORT, and he thought the City's Name would be Babylon. He had speculated a THEORY that I have NEVER HEARD BEFORE.

In his sermon, he said this was a few years after the Church would be called home for the Wedding of the Lamb, and AFTER the Antichrist had beheaded most or all of the Tribulation Saints. Here is his SPECULATION: He theorized that the Antichrist had time not only to come to power over the 10 (soon to be 7) nation confederacy, but TO START TO BUILD BABYLON, to be the CENTER of his Government. After taking over the TEMPLE in Jerusalem, he would want to move his government into that REBUILT CITY Babylon. And he speculated that by the time Chapter 18, he would have almost the WHOLE WORLD UNDER HIS CONTROL.

I do not see where there is enough TIME to rebuilt the actual City of Babylon, and DEEPEN the Channel of the Euphrates River, to make it passable for big cargo ships (less than 7 years). Because, after that Seven Year Period, in Chapter 19, Christ's comes back.

Now there is ONE VERSE that will MAKE IT IMPOSSIBLE for the Name of the CITY to be EITHER ROME or Jerusalem.


Revelation 18:21 (YLT)
21 And one strong messenger did take up a stone as a great millstone, and did cast it to the sea, saying, `Thus with violence shall Babylon be cast, the great city, and may not be found any more at all;

Revelation 18:21 (TLB)
21 Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder shaped like a millstone and threw it into the ocean and shouted, "Babylon, that great city, shall be thrown away as I have thrown away this stone, and she shall disappear forever.

Revelation 18:21 (NCV)
21 Then a powerful angel picked up a large stone, like one used for grinding grain, and threw it into the sea. He said: “In the same way, the great city of Babylon will be thrown down, and it will never be found again.

Revelation 18:21 (NASB)
21 Then a strong angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, "So will Babylon, the great city, be thrown down with violence, and will not be found any longer.

I just do not see it this way, Again, I do not see "City" as a "City" Any more than I see the word "sea" as the literal ocean in which the antichrist comes from.

I see babylon as a world system, a world religion which is a harlotrous idolatrous system, which through the OT and in John day was seen as the pagan Gods, the baal worshipers, the worshipers of the greek and romans Gods, (pantheism) and the worship of ceasar himself. All the temples of the pagan Gods, Along with all these things came greed, sexual immorality (temple prostitutes) sacrifice (human and animal) etc etc, all these things Israel kept following, and God would continually say, you are playing harlotry with the harlot (the harlot being Baal or whatever worship they were following)

so when Jogn says the mother of harlots and her great city will be destroyed, this is the context in which I personally must interpret these words. And NY simply does not fit any of those characteristics.

Still love ya though brother!! one day we will be in heaven, and laugh at these silly debates we used to have!

 

[dcontroversal]

Many people have looked at the characteristics brother. and come up with much different view. I can just suggest, be open to others who study and come up with different views, Many who have done as much study as you have.

I hear ya and will say...in a world with only around 200 nations or countries, 10.5 billion to 1 odds tells me all I need to know...MATH speaks amd like I said...ALL characteristics must fit the nation in question or it is not that nation or entity that is being addressed....I stood for years and pushed/believed a revived Roman entity until I thoroughly studied the Daighter of Babylon and HER chief City which was called BABYLON by the Jews that settled in in 1872.....just saying

 

[calibob]

I hear ya and will say...in a world with only around 200 nations or countries, 10.5 billion to 1 odds tells me all I need to know...MATH speaks amd like I said...ALL characteristics must fit the nation in question or it is not that nation or entity that is being addressed....I stood for years and pushed/believed a revived Roman entity until I thoroughly studied the Daighter of Babylon and HER chief City which was called BABYLON by the Jews that settled in in 1872.....just saying

I just do not see it this way, Again, I do not see "City" as a "City" Any more than I see the word "sea" as the literal ocean in which the antichrist comes from.

I see babylon as a world system, a world religion which is a harlotrous idolatrous system, which through the OT and in John day was seen as the pagan Gods, the baal worshipers, the worshipers of the greek and romans Gods, (pantheism) and the worship of ceasar himself. All the temples of the pagan Gods, Along with all these things came greed, sexual immorality (temple prostitutes) sacrifice (human and animal) etc etc, all these things Israel kept following, and God would continually say, you are playing harlotry with the harlot (the harlot being Baal or whatever worship they were following)

so when Jogn says the mother of harlots and her great city will be destroyed, this is the context in which I personally must interpret these words. And NY simply does not fit any of those characteristics.

Still love ya though brother!! one day we will be in heaven, and laugh at these silly debates we used to have!

HEY GUYS, The problem is as 'I' see it is that the Rev. of John is a narative, neither history or science thus his description of what he saw 1st century ad is not accurate any more than his understanding of what he saw. Do either of you believe in giant fire breathing, flying scorpions? Someone long ago gave me a book titled 'Hollywood Babylon'. It wasn't about prophecy, it was about corrupiton in the film industry but it got me wondering, hoe corrupt was Babylon compaired to the USA and as a military force just how much power does the RCC have compared? So I loosed myself from the idea that the new Babylon is in Iraq. And the description of the corruption I saw fits the USA very well and we as a nation of world power stick our noses I n Middle Eastern and Zionist affair all the time. Our money is worthless and they have Oil..

A new world currency? Gold is worthless? A new world order? do not spill the oil? Maybe it isn't olive oil or lamp oil! Think about it, send me a pm. But think first please.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I hear ya and will say...in a world with only around 200 nations or countries, 10.5 billion to 1 odds tells me all I need to know...MATH speaks amd like I said...ALL characteristics must fit the nation in question or it is not that nation or entity that is being addressed....I stood for years and pushed/believed a revived Roman entity until I thoroughly studied the Daighter of Babylon and HER chief City which was called BABYLON by the Jews that settled in in 1872.....just saying

I hear ya bro.

I studied this for years. and every aspect of the characteristic of Babylon (rev 17) fits the roman catholic/eastern orthodox church to a "T". Thats all I am saying.

Now is it her? I do not know. Alot of me wants to believe the Pope to be the false prophet. Can that be with the catholic church falling as babylon? Well, as I said earlier, we will know when we get there, we will know eventually.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

HEY GUYS, The problem is as 'I' see it is that the Rev. of John is a narative, neither history or science thus his description of what he saw 1st century ad is not accurate any more than his understanding of what he saw. Do either of you believe in giant fire breathing, flying scorpions? Someone long ago gave me a book titled 'Hollywood Babylon'. It wasn't about prophecy, it was about corrupiton in the film industry but it got me wondering, hoe corrupt was Babylon compaired to the USA and as a military force just how much power does the RCC have compared? So I loosed myself from the idea that the new Babylon is in Iraq. And the description of the corruption I saw fits the USA very well and we as a nation of world power stick our noses I n Middle Eastern and Zionist affair all the time. Our money is worthless and they have Oil..

A new world currency? Gold is worthless? A new world order? do not spill the oil? Maybe it isn't olive oil or lamp oil! Think about it, send me a pm. But think first please.

I used to think this too. However, The US will not even be a nation I believe when these things occur. all it would take are a few bombs, and the US will be up in smoke.

Everything in scripture has been centered around the middle east/europe/north africa/ asia area. I do not see the future being any different.

 

[calibob]

I think the fling scorpions John saw were helicopters, we hae a bunch!

 

[calibob]

I used to think this too. However, The US will not even be a nation I believe when these things occur. all it would take are a few bombs, and the US will be up in smoke.

Everything in scripture has been centered around the middle east/europe/north africa/ asia area. I do not see the future being any different.

one or two in the Yellowstone caldera may be all it takes to create a lake of fire

 

[calibob]

And even if the continental USA is destroyed we still have land, sea and air power around the world and plenty of maniacs to take control.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think the fling scorpions John saw were helicopters, we hae a bunch!

So Does Israel. So does Russia and China And Europe.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And even if the continental USA is destroyed we still have land, sea and air power around the world and plenty of maniacs to take control.

if the US is destroyed, Those will not longer belong to the US, they will belong to the antichrist anyway. Who will come from Rome or europe area.

 

[calibob]

yes I realize that, some one will lead but I was talking about the destruction of the USA the creation of the lake of fire and who will provide the Antichrist with military power. The new world order what he will tell the idiots that will worship him the reason the reason is to go to meggido and why the Lord allows north america to be destroyed. I admit that I know less about God than a dragon fly does about the space shuttle. However I'm trying to think like a 3d chess player rather than an intreptperter of scripture, which I am not.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

yes I realize that, some one will lead but I was talking about the destruction of the USA the creation of the lake of fire

lake f fire is already created, and awaiting satan and his followers

and who will provide the Antichrist with military power.

When europe completely unifies under one leader, it by itself will have a greater army that the US in manpower, money and resources, far greater than the USA. The only army that may be greater is China.

The new world order what he will tell the idiots that will worship him the reason the reason is to go to meggido and why the Lord allows north america to be destroyed. I admit that I know less about God than a dragon fly does about the space shuttle. However I'm trying to think like a 3d chess player rather than an intreptperter of scripture, which I am not.

we all started some where my friend, Thats why we keep studying, we are always learning

 

[calibob]

That's why 'I' posted to this string. I'm not claiming to be correct. I just shared where the pieces fit in my mind. Prophecy isn't a major field of study to me. Co-occuring disorders is. I appreciate the input of someone of someone that has studied it more than I. It is the most difficult and most contested subject in Christianity. I noticed you don't get your shorts in a knot when someone disagrees with you. I like that. We'll find out someday, for sure till then, happy studying

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That's why 'I' posted to this string. I'm not claiming to be correct. I just shared where the pieces fit in my mind. Prophecy isn't a major field of study to me. Co-occuring disorders is. I appreciate the input of someone of someone that has studied it more than I. It is the most difficult and most contested subject in Christianity. I noticed you don't get your shorts in a knot when someone disagrees with you. I like that. We'll find out someday, for sure till then, happy studying

thats the way we all should be my friend, Its how we learn.. amen!

 

[VCO]

I just do not see it this way, Again, I do not see "City" as a "City" Any more than I see the word "sea" as the literal ocean in which the antichrist comes from.

I see babylon as a world system, a world religion which is a harlotrous idolatrous system, which through the OT and in John day was seen as the pagan Gods, the baal worshipers, the worshipers of the greek and romans Gods, (pantheism) and the worship of ceasar himself. All the temples of the pagan Gods, Along with all these things came greed, sexual immorality (temple prostitutes) sacrifice (human and animal) etc etc, all these things Israel kept following, and God would continually say, you are playing harlotry with the harlot (the harlot being Baal or whatever worship they were following)

so when Jogn says the mother of harlots and her great city will be destroyed, this is the context in which I personally must interpret these words. And NY simply does not fit any of those characteristics.

Still love ya though brother!! one day we will be in heaven, and laugh at these silly debates we used to have!

You mean you do not think GOD is intelligent enough to MEAN a CITY when HE CALLS IT A CITY? Oh my! And the SEA, is not LITERAL either? Oh my! You see I believe all of Scripture, when it is NOT OBVIOUS SYMBOLISM, should always be Translated LITERALLY. And I do not see the CITY and the SEA as Obvious Symbolism; therefore I must translate it LITERALLY.

For Example:

The Beast with SEVEN HEADS and 10 HORNS, is OBVIOUS SYMBOLISM, but NOT the CITY and the SEA.


Revelation 17:7-10 (ASV)
7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou wonder? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and the ten horns.
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and is about to come up out of the abyss, and to go into perdition. And they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, they whose name hath not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast, how that he was, and is not, and shall come.
9 Here is the mind that hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth:
10 and they are seven kings; the five are fallen, the one is, the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a little while.


Then obvious is that SYMBOLISM representing the countries that make up the Ultimate form of the E.U. I believe the proper Interpretation is the Beast is the Dictator that leads the Ultimate E.U. when he gets invited to rule as a Dictator, and 3 of the horns or countries, merge with other nations in the E.U., making the final form 7 nation confederacy. All others EXIT, like Britain has already done, forming the Seventh World Empire. The World's Empires in verses 9 & 10 that the woman sits on, are as follows:
Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, and the future revived Roman Empire.

 

[dcontroversal]

I hear ya bro.

I studied this for years. and every aspect of the characteristic of Babylon (rev 17) fits the roman catholic/eastern orthodox church to a "T". Thats all I am saying.

Now is it her? I do not know. Alot of me wants to believe the Pope to be the false prophet. Can that be with the catholic church falling as babylon? Well, as I said earlier, we will know when we get there, we will know eventually.

I fully believe the Pope is the false prophet and we can see this easily coming on line by what he is doing....some points...

a. Unifying all so called religions under one banner "ALL the Monotheistic religions-->Christianity, Judism and ISLAM
b. The two horns one higher than the other --->a reunified Roman Catholic/Greek Orthodox union which he is pushing
c. The Catholic church worships and pushes IMAGES of God, Mary, Popes etc. <---false prophet will do this
d. The Catholic church believes in miracles as a sign from God<---Beast and 2nd beast will work miracles in sight of first beast
e. Pope has BOWED to and KISSED the KORAN essentially placing the Catholic church and the pope UNDER ISLAM
f. Current POPE has stated that ISLAM and Catholic Church worship SAME GOD by a different name

I disagree that the characteristics of Revelation as applied unto the CITY BABYLON (called such 6 times) fits the Catholic church....for one the Catholic church by sea trade has not made the merchants of the earth rich....and Rome (the seat of Catholic power) has NO DEEP water ports that apply to the first point of all who trade by sea are made rich by HER......

The bigger picture is the blend....Rome is but one aspect of the end kingdom and application of Babylon....it is not about the religion of Rome per se, but rather a blend of what was started in Babylon as the HEAD of GENTILE world POWER...that IS what MOST miss bro....

The statue represents Gentile world power and rule....it begins with Nebuchadnezzar and Babylon and culminates with the 10 toes of iron and clay attempting to mix (ISLAM and Romanism) <----out of this comes the 10 horns and the subjugation of 3 of the 10 by the LITTLE HORN that rises in the midst of the 10<---this is the 8th and final KINGDOM of world GENTILE rule over the planet I.E> the kingdom of the beast......

The religion is the same all throughout history and that religion enthrones MAN and dethrones God.....GOD does know that in the day ye eat thereof ye shall be as GOD knowing good and evil....<---SELF RULE is the mystery religion!

 

[dcontroversal]

I used to think this too. However, The US will not even be a nation I believe when these things occur. all it would take are a few bombs, and the US will be up in smoke.

Everything in scripture has been centered around the middle east/europe/north africa/ asia area. I do not see the future being any different.

I agree with this and is what I have been saying all along...the U.S. as the culmination of Gentile world power and rule A.K.A. THE DAUGHTER "PRODIGY" OF BABYLON will BE destroyed <---out of this "power "vacuum" rises the confederation of the 8th and final kingdom -->3 horns subdued of the 10 HORNS by the LITTLE HORN AFTER the 10 HORNS BURN HER (DAUGHTER of BABYLON) with fire.......God's judgment begins at the house of GOD with the largest SO called Christian nation with the MOST so called Christian churches of every flavor.....

 

[calibob]

i'll touch base with you later. I never tried to figure who the beast or the main antichrist was I can see a lot of string connecting the EU, UK, RCC and freemasons but no single leader as of yet. I don't think he has yet raised his ugly head. I'll think about it some more first. I too see the USA out of the picture but our Air, land and Sea power will still be a mighty armada even if the Contenent is destroyed. Thanks for getting back with me. cool cool

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You mean you do not think GOD is intelligent enough to MEAN a CITY when HE CALLS IT A CITY? Oh my! And the SEA, is not LITERAL either? Oh my! You see I believe all of Scripture, when it is NOT OBVIOUS SYMBOLISM, should always be Translated LITERALLY. And I do not see the CITY and the SEA as Obvious Symbolism; therefore I must translate it LITERALLY.

For Example:

The Beast with SEVEN HEADS and 10 HORNS, is OBVIOUS SYMBOLISM, but NOT the CITY and the SEA.


Revelation 17:7-10 (ASV)
7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou wonder? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and the ten horns.
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and is about to come up out of the abyss, and to go into perdition. And they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, they whose name hath not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast, how that he was, and is not, and shall come.
9 Here is the mind that hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth:
10 and they are seven kings; the five are fallen, the one is, the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a little while.


Then obvious is that SYMBOLISM representing the countries that make up the Ultimate form of the E.U. I believe the proper Interpretation is the Beast is the Dictator that leads the Ultimate E.U. when he gets invited to rule as a Dictator, and 3 of the horns or countries, merge with other nations in the E.U., making the final form 7 nation confederacy. All others EXIT, like Britain has already done, forming the Seventh World Empire. The World's Empires in verses 9 & 10 that the woman sits on, are as follows:
Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, and the future revived Roman Empire.

Ok, so when some beast (not a man) comes out if the sea, then we know the antichrist has come.

Sorry my friend, i have to cut off this conversation, about all it will do is tear two brothers apart. Not worth it to me

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I agree with this and is what I have been saying all along...the U.S. as the culmination of Gentile world power and rule A.K.A. THE DAUGHTER "PRODIGY" OF BABYLON will BE destroyed <---out of this "power "vacuum" rises the confederation of the 8th and final kingdom -->3 horns subdued of the 10 HORNS by the LITTLE HORN AFTER the 10 HORNS BURN HER (DAUGHTER of BABYLON) with fire.......God's judgment begins at the house of GOD with the largest SO called Christian nation with the MOST so called Christian churches of every flavor.....

The us has nothing to do with the gentile world power, the final world power is rome, (or as many call it, rome 2) which will be European, not american, the leader will be the prince who comes out of the people who destroyed jeresalem in ad 70, ie out of rome 2, and this leader will deatroy babylon,

The final gentile power destroys babylon, because babylon has to much power and influence, proven by he fact the wrld mourns her loss.

And by he way, news flash, there are more christians in china now than in the us, the us is now longer a christian nation.