Is the Great Commission irrelevant for the church now?

[Guojing]

Ephesians 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

Jesus Christ is the mystery. Ask anyone who wants to know who Jesus is and find out how much of a mystery He is. Muslims believe He is just a prophet, others believe He was just a man, others believe He is God, others believe He is the Son of God who was concieved when the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary.

But Paul tells us the mystery. He was hid in God. Jesus dwelt in the Fathers bosom. Jesus is the Word of God. Who was in the beggining with God and was God. The living Word made manifest. Even the jews did not recognize Him. But Jesus is a part of God. He calls Him His Son. God created everything through His Word Jesus Christ.

It is so interesting how you ignore the flow in the chapter until it spell out the mystery explicitly in verse 6.

Jesus came to walk on Earth in the 4 gospels and there were many people who acknowledged him as the Son of God. Mary, Martha and so on and so forth, one simple example from Martha.

She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world. John 11:27.

Yet, you still insist that Paul was still talking about Jesus Christ as the mystery when he wrote Ephesians. Okay then.

 

[TLC209]

It is so interesting how you ignore the flow in the chapter until it spell out the mystery explicitly in verse 6.

Jesus came to walk on Earth in the 4 gospels and there were many people who acknowledged him as the Son of God. Mary, Martha and so on and so forth, one simple example from Martha.

She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world. John 11:27.

Yet, you still insist that Paul was still talking about Jesus Christ as the mystery when he wrote Ephesians. Okay then.

Okay lets rewind further..

Ephesians 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

The mystery of who Jesus Christ is. He even asked His disciples who they thought He was. Peter said He is the Son of God. Jesus told Him only the Spirit cpuld have revealed that to Him. Read verse 5 you can see this is affirmed.

If anyone has eyes to see, and ears to hear, the verses are there. Jesus Christ is the mystery. Hidden in God since the beginning. And made flesh when He came into the world. And men did not know Him. Yet all were CREATED BY HIM. The riches of knowing Christ is the Gospel Paul preached. Being in the fellowship and heir with Christ. That is the riches. Salvation, mercy, forgiveness, love. All of it. Not just a portion or partialities. All of it.

 

[Guojing]

Okay lets rewind further..

Ephesians 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

The mystery of who Jesus Christ is. He even asked His disciples who they thought He was. Peter said He is the Son of God. Jesus told Him only the Spirit cpuld have revealed that to Him. Read verse 5 you can see this is affirmed.

If anyone has eyes to see, and ears to hear, the verses are there. Jesus Christ is the mystery. Hidden in God since the beginning. And made flesh when He came into the world. And men did not know Him. Yet all were CREATED BY HIM. The riches of knowing Christ is the Gospel Paul preached. Being in the fellowship and heir with Christ. That is the riches. Salvation, mercy, forgiveness, love. All of it. Not just a portion or partialities. All of it.

Read again Ephesians 3:6. What does it specifically says? Can you actually read? Here are many translations

New International Version
This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

New Living Translation
And this is God’s plan: Both Gentiles and Jews who believe the Good News share equally in the riches inherited by God’s children. Both are part of the same body, and both enjoy the promise of blessings because they belong to Christ Jesus.

English Standard Version
This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

Berean Study Bible
This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are fellow heirs, fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus.

Berean Literal Bible
that the Gentiles are joint-heirs, and a joint-body, and joint-partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus, through the gospel,

New American Standard Bible
to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,

King James Bible
That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Christian Standard Bible
The Gentiles are coheirs, members of the same body, and partners in the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

Contemporary English Version
And the mystery is this: Because of Christ Jesus, the good news has given the Gentiles a share in the promises God gave to the Jews. God has also let the Gentiles be part of the same body.

Good News Translation
The secret is that by means of the gospel the Gentiles have a part with the Jews in God's blessings; they are members of the same body and share in the promise that God made through Christ Jesus.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
The Gentiles are coheirs, members of the same body, and partners of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

International Standard Version
The gentiles are heirs-in-common, members-in-common of the body, and common participants in what was promised by the Messiah Jesus through the gospel.

NET Bible
namely, that through the gospel the Gentiles are fellow heirs, fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus.

New Heart English Bible
that the non-Jews are fellow heirs, and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the Good News,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
That the Gentiles would be heirs and members of his body and of The Promise that was given in him by The Gospel,

GOD'S WORD® Translation
This mystery is the Good News that people who are not Jewish have the same inheritance as Jewish people do. They belong to the same body and share the same promise that God made in Christ Jesus.

New American Standard 1977
to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,

Jubilee Bible 2000
that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs and of the same body and partakers of his promise in the Christ by the gospel,

King James 2000 Bible
That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

American King James Version
That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

American Standard Version
to wit , that the Gentiles are fellow-heirs, and fellow-members of the body, and fellow-partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,

Douay-Rheims Bible
That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and co-partners of his promise in Christ Jesus, by the gospel:

Darby Bible Translation
that [they who are of] the nations should be joint heirs, and a joint body, and joint partakers of [his] promise in Christ Jesus by the glad tidings;

English Revised Version
to wit, that the Gentiles are fellow-heirs, and fellow-members of the body, and fellow-partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,

Webster's Bible Translation
That the Gentiles should be joint-heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the Gospel:

Weymouth New Testament
I mean the truth that the Gentiles are joint heirs with us Jews, and that they form one body with us, and have the same interest as we have in the promise which has been made good in Christ Jesus through the Good News,

World English Bible
that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of his promise in Christ Jesus through the Good News,

Young's Literal Translation
that the nations be fellow-heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of His promise in the Christ, through the good news,

 

[JaumeJ]

People need not be linguists in order to understand the Word, however many will pronounce on subjects before understanding,

As is stated above, the mystery of our Savior us hidden in God. Yet He is reveled to all by the Holy Spirit. Again I cut and past Isaiah 9:6 below in hopes all will see and understandd. All love in Yeshua, Jesus.
6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

The titles above are given to Jesus, Yeshua. Thinking on this and how He suffered great agony on the cross for me and you, it brings new, great meaning to His being also clalled the Everlasting Father. On the cross for us all. How much more do we need to be truly humbled in His glorious sight? There is more but you will understand if prayer and meditation is applied.

 

[Guojing]

People need not be linguists in order to understand the Word, however many will pronounce on subjects before understanding,

As is stated above, the mystery of our Savior us hidden in God. Yet He is reveled to all by the Holy Spirit. Again I cut and past Isaiah 9:6 below in hopes all will see and understandd. All love in Yeshua, Jesus.
6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

The titles above are given to Jesus, Yeshua. Thinking on this and how He suffered great agony on the cross for me and you, it brings new, great meaning to His being also clalled the Everlasting Father. On the cross for us all. How much more do we need to be truly humbled in His glorious sight? There is more but you will understand if prayer and meditation is applied.

Wow, so you also think that Paul talking about the mystery, in Ephesians 2-3, is not the equality between Jews and Gentiles in the eyes of God, but rather is referring to Jesus as the Son of God?

Do you realized he was writing the book of Ephesians in a Roman prison where he was imprisoned because of him preaching that the Gentiles and Jews are equal, as Acts 21 explained

26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them. 27 And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him, 28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teaches all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and has polluted this holy place. 29(For they had seen before with him in the city Trophimus an Ephesian, whom they supposed that Paul had brought into the temple.) 30 And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew him out of the temple: and immediately the doors were shut. 31 And as they went about to kill him, tidings came to the chief captain of the band, that all Jerusalem was in an uproar. 32 Who immediately took soldiers and centurions, and ran down to them: and when they saw the chief captain and the soldiers, they left beating of Paul. 33 Then the chief captain came near, and took him, and commanded him to be bound with two chains; and demanded who he was, and what he had done. 34 And some cried one thing, some another, among the multitude: and when he could not know the certainty for the tumult, he commanded him to be carried into the castle. 35 And when he came on the stairs, so it was, that he was borne of the soldiers for the violence of the people. 36 For the multitude of the people followed after, crying, Away with him.

Are you also aware that, in Jewish time, the temple had a barrier that separated the area where Gentiles may go, and where the Jews are allowed to, and Gentiles are NEVER to cross the barrier into the area meant for Jews?

Why do you think Paul used the analogy of a middle wall in his explanation of the mystery in Ephesians 2?

For he is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Fascinating interpretation you have, but I do understand no one can make us see something that we do not want to see. I certainly learn a lot more about the context of the book of Ephesians while trying to explain it here. Cheers

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Thanks for the well wishes. I asked these questions because I find that quite a number of churches seem to be "overly obsessed with the GC". It seems to them that if you don't "make disciples", you are not a true follower of Jesus. They basically guilt trip all of us into the GC, without really much serious questioning.

When I question further, especially about "which GC to follow", they only think of the Matthew one, and did not consider how certain other versions have instructions that they would clearly reject.

My view of the GC is that its only meant for the 11 to preach to the Jews. For our Gentile church, we are more under the ministry of reconciliation that the Apostle Paul instructs us in 2 Corinthians 5:11-21.

Do you believe all men are doomed to destruction?
Does this not worry you?

Or is your love limited only to those you know and care about?

 

[Guojing]

Do you believe all men are doomed to destruction?
Does this not worry you?

Or is your love limited only to those you know and care about?

So when I concluded that the Gentile church is more under the ministry of reconciliation instead of the Great Commission, you came to that conclusion about my love?

Do you know what 2 Cor 5:11-21 is saying?

 

[FollowHisSteps]

So when I concluded that the Gentile church is more under the ministry of reconciliation instead of the Great Commission, you came to that conclusion about my love?

Do you know what 2 Cor 5:11-21 is saying?

I am not coming to any conclusions about your love, I was asking a question.
With 6 pages of comments, I do not have the time to read them all.

So I was asking because I saw you said people are guilt tripping people into evangelism.

And preaching the gospel is preaching a ministry of reconciliation. They are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Guojing]

I am not coming to any conclusions about your love, I was asking a question.
With 6 pages of comments, I do not have the time to read them all.

So I was asking because I saw you said people are guilt tripping people into evangelism.

And preaching the gospel is preaching a ministry of reconciliation. They are not mutually exclusive.

I am saying using the Great Commission is the wrong way to go about preaching to non Christians. The GC was for Jews to preach to Jews only, using a different Gospel, with its different rules.

For our present Gospel of Grace, Paul's instructions in 2 Cor 5:11-21 is the right message to preach to non Christians.

 

[JaumeJ]

Wow, so you also think that Paul talking about the mystery, in Ephesians 2-3, is not the equality between Jews and Gentiles in the eyes of God, but rather is referring to Jesus as the Son of God?

Do you realized he was writing the book of Ephesians in a Roman prison where he was imprisoned because of him preaching that the Gentiles and Jews are equal, as Acts 21 explained

26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them. 27 And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him, 28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teaches all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and has polluted this holy place. 29(For they had seen before with him in the city Trophimus an Ephesian, whom they supposed that Paul had brought into the temple.) 30 And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew him out of the temple: and immediately the doors were shut. 31 And as they went about to kill him, tidings came to the chief captain of the band, that all Jerusalem was in an uproar. 32 Who immediately took soldiers and centurions, and ran down to them: and when they saw the chief captain and the soldiers, they left beating of Paul. 33 Then the chief captain came near, and took him, and commanded him to be bound with two chains; and demanded who he was, and what he had done. 34 And some cried one thing, some another, among the multitude: and when he could not know the certainty for the tumult, he commanded him to be carried into the castle. 35 And when he came on the stairs, so it was, that he was borne of the soldiers for the violence of the people. 36 For the multitude of the people followed after, crying, Away with him.

Are you also aware that, in Jewish time, the temple had a barrier that separated the area where Gentiles may go, and where the Jews are allowed to, and Gentiles are NEVER to cross the barrier into the area meant for Jews?

Why do you think Paul used the analogy of a middle wall in his explanation of the mystery in Ephesians 2?

For he is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Fascinating interpretation you have, but I do understand no one can make us see something that we do not want to see. I certainly learn a lot more about the context of the book of Ephesians while trying to explain it here. Cheers

When you understand the post I hae not contradicted danything to the contraray of what you have said. Find out exactly what Jew and Israel mean, and you will be quite satisfied. Perhaps if you read Paul's writting on what a true Jew is. Or if you just find out what Judah and Israel mean, the you will understand just how we are the nation of God…...…...all who truly believe.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

I am saying using the Great Commission is the wrong way to go about preaching to non Christians. The GC was for Jews to preach to Jews only, using a different Gospel, with its different rules.

For our present Gospel of Grace, Paul's instructions in 2 Cor 5:11-21 is the right message to preach to non Christians.

19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of
the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am
with you always, to the very end of the age.
Matt 28

Taking this passage in isolation, it is saying make disciples of all nations. It is spoken
to the apostles, who are the foundation of the church, where there is both gentile and
jew equally together, and we as a church move as one.

Nothing in this passage is Jews only preaching to Jews only.
And a different Gospel with different rules is all your making, not ours.

In your belief system I can understand it, but most here are not of your persuasion.

And to me this demonstrates how much you add to simple scripture and intents.

 

[cv5]

What Jesus commanded before His resurrection was clearly different from what He commanded AFTER His resurrection. But Peter had a hard time catching up.

Until His crucifixion, Christ was under the Law, and He limited His ministry primarily to Israel (not exclusively). But when He said "Go therefore and teach ALL NATIONS..." He totally removed that limitation. Indeed He insisted that the Gospel be preached progressively, starting at Jerusalem and then going worldwide "unto the uttermost parts of the earth".

But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. (Acts 1:8)

As we know Peter started in Jerusalem but shortly thereafter He went to Caesarea (with much protestation), and saw Gentiles saved and receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit. We are not given the details about where the other apostles went, but there are various traditions, and we know that Thomas went to India and was martyred after he established churches.

"different from what He commanded AFTER His resurrection"
Yep. Very likely the case.

 

[Guojing]

And a different Gospel with different rules is all your making, not ours.

John 20:23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”

Does your church follow this? Why not?

 

[TLC209]

John 20:23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”

Does your church follow this? Why not?

Yes that applies to the church. If you do not forgive you will not be forgiven. Jesus taught us that. Paul cannot save your soul Guojing.

 

[JaumeJ]

You have said it because our Lord teaches us the same. It is wonderful to forgive , and we are free, indeed, to do so. Again, Jesus teaches us, o, Jesus says so. God bless all in the Lord, and all who will be coming to Him, amen.

 

[TLC209]

I am saying using the Great Commission is the wrong way to go about preaching to non Christians. The GC was for Jews to preach to Jews only, using a different Gospel, with its different rules.

For our present Gospel of Grace, Paul's instructions in 2 Cor 5:11-21 is the right message to preach to non Christians.

You would make a better muslim. They believe only what Muhammed preaches. Even though they claim to agree with the bible and even Jesus Christ. Yet their Koran does not include any bible scriptures. Maybe because those were writtin to the Jews.

Sounds alot like what youre trying to do with Pauls teachings. You want to make a whole other book with only Pauls teachings and exclude the bible. Maybe you should go start that somewhere else. To put it nicely, your views are not shared among Christians. We believe all of the Word of God. Not only Pauls gospel. If Paul even has a different Gospel as you presume.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

John 20:23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”

Does your church follow this? Why not?

This is a very interesting question.
And the reason we do not follow this, is because we do not understand it.

One interpretation, taken from Jesus, in His ministry He went around forgiving peoples sins.
He also healed them as a sign of His authority to forgive sins. We can do both, given faith.
Jesus is authorising us to behave as Jesus behaved.

This is the first time I have actually thought about this verse in this context, but it makes sense
with the ministry Jesus is calling us to.
God bless you.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

You would make a better muslim. They believe only what Muhammed preaches. Even though they claim to agree with the bible and even Jesus Christ. Yet their Koran does not include any bible scriptures. Maybe because those were writtin to the Jews.

Sounds alot like what youre trying to do with Pauls teachings. You want to make a whole other book with only Pauls teachings and exclude the bible. Maybe you should go start that somewhere else. To put it nicely, your views are not shared among Christians. We believe all of the Word of God. Not only Pauls gospel. If Paul even has a different Gospel as you presume.

Dispensational believers have made their view up as they go along sometimes.
I remember talking to some, and it was like they were trying to understand the implications of a point
as we were discussing it, and would change their view to fit their overview.

But this is what happens if you leave orthodox theology behind and start creating principles that are
not fully worked through. For instance some believe the Jews will establish the temple with the sacrifices
for sin etc. But this form of their faith has not be practised since 70AD so the argument could be put forward
as to why, if the jewish faith has a modern expression which they are happy with.

 

[notuptome]

This is a very interesting question.
And the reason we do not follow this, is because we do not understand it.

One interpretation, taken from Jesus, in His ministry He went around forgiving peoples sins.
He also healed them as a sign of His authority to forgive sins. We can do both, given faith.
Jesus is authorising us to behave as Jesus behaved.

This is the first time I have actually thought about this verse in this context, but it makes sense
with the ministry Jesus is calling us to.
God bless you.

Context is essential for understanding. We as believers do not have the authority to forgive sin. We can and certainly should forgive those who sin against us but there is a bigger issue present in the passage.

Read Mat 16:18-19 in conjunction with this passage. The keys are the word of God. Christians go about declaring the testimony of Christ to every man. Those who receive the word of God will have their sins forgiven by Christ. Those who reject the word of God will be forever bound to their sin in eternal condemnation.

God is not so capricious as to entrust the forgiveness of sin into the hands of men who themselves are first of all sinners.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Guojing]

Context is essential for understanding. We as believers do not have the authority to forgive sin. We can and certainly should forgive those who sin against us but there is a bigger issue present in the passage.

Read Mat 16:18-19 in conjunction with this passage. The keys are the word of God. Christians go about declaring the testimony of Christ to every man. Those who receive the word of God will have their sins forgiven by Christ. Those who reject the word of God will be forever bound to their sin in eternal condemnation.

God is not so capricious as to entrust the forgiveness of sin into the hands of men who themselves are first of all sinners.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I certainly appreciate that you did not change the meaning of that verse like what TLC2009 has done.

As I have said in the opening post of this thread, the Roman Catholics took that verse seriously in their concept of absolution. In early Acts, I can see Peter practicing that by basically condemning Ananias and Sapphira to their deaths for lying to the Holy Spirit.

Nowadays of course, no Protestant Church that I know of, take that verse seriously. It showed that certain instructions provided for under the GC, are no longer relevant for the current dispensation of Grace.