Is the Hebrew Roots Movement a cult?

[Hizikyah]

Hopeless. I keep bringing up ONLY the Mosaic law given to Israel and you go into Yahveh's law, moral law and now the New Covenant and the law of Christ... We're just two ships passing in the fog.

What you call Mosaic Law is the Law of Yahweh, I have explained this a few times today, though not in a simple way, but a deeper explanation. I made this very clear, mant times.

This is Scriptural FACT:

Malakyah 4:1-4,"For, behold, the day comes that will burn like an oven; and all the proud, yes, and all who do wickedly, will be stubble--the day that comes will burn them up, says Yahweh of hosts; and it will leave them neither root nor branch. But for you who reverence My Name, the light of righteousness will arise with healing in its wings; and you will go out, leaping like calves released from the stall. And you will tread down the wicked; for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I will do this, says Yahweh of hosts. Remember the Law of Mosheh My servant, which I commanded through him in Horeb for all Israyl, with the statutes and judgments."

 

[Hizikyah]

Even though my questions get routinely ignored, will you reply to the line of questioning in 1555?

 

[RedTent]

Hopeless. I keep bringing up ONLY the Mosaic law given to Israel and you go into Yahveh's law, moral law and now the New Covenant and the law of Christ... We're just two ships passing in the fog.

So the Mosaic law in not Yahveh's law, not the moral law, not the law of Christ. Then what is it?

 

[crossnote]

What you call Mosaic Law is the Law of Yahweh, I have explained this a few times today, though not in a simple way, but a deeper explanation. I made this very clear, mant times.

This is Scriptural FACT:

Malakyah 4:1-4,"For, behold, the day comes that will burn like an oven; and all the proud, yes, and all who do wickedly, will be stubble--the day that comes will burn them up, says Yahweh of hosts; and it will leave them neither root nor branch. But for you who reverence My Name, the light of righteousness will arise with healing in its wings; and you will go out, leaping like calves released from the stall. And you will tread down the wicked; for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I will do this, says Yahweh of hosts. Remember the Law of Mosheh My servant, which I commanded through him in Horeb for all Israyl, with the statutes and judgments."

Malachi 4:4 refers to Moses of the Mosaic law and spoken to Israel while under that Covenant. Israel failed that Covenant but because of the unconditional Abrahamic Covenant and Christ taking the curse spelled out in the Mosaic Covenant, He will perform what He promises though undeserved by Israel.

 

[crossnote]

So the Mosaic law in not Yahveh's law, not the moral law, not the law of Christ. Then what is it?

The Mosaic law contains the Moral law but the moral law also existed long before the Mosaic law.

 

[Hizikyah]

What you call Mosaic Law is the Law of Yahweh, I have explained this a few times today, though not in a simple way, but a deeper explanation. I made this very clear, mant times.

This is Scriptural FACT:

Malakyah 4:1-4,"For, behold, the day comes that will burn like an oven; and all the proud, yes, and all who do wickedly, will be stubble--the day that comes will burn them up, says Yahweh of hosts; and it will leave them neither root nor branch. But for you who reverence My Name, the light of righteousness will arise with healing in its wings; and you will go out, leaping like calves released from the stall. And you will tread down the wicked; for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I will do this, says Yahweh of hosts. Remember the Law of Mosheh My servant, which I commanded through him in Horeb for all Israyl, with the statutes and judgments."

Malachi 4:4 was the Mosaic law and spoken to Israel while under that Covenant. Israel failed that Covenant but because of the unconditional Abrahamic Covenant and Christ taking the curse spelled out in the Mosaic Covenant, He will perform what He promises though undeserved by Israel.

Much of what you say is true, but the thing is this is an end time prophecy about the return of Messiah when all evil will be destroyed, and Yahweh says, REMEMBER the Law.

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

Yahweh and Yahshua seem to think this Law you call old and obsolete is not going away...

hmm, same as Yahchanan (John) and Shaul (Paul)

Romans 3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"

the word Law is: 3551. nomos
nomos: that which is assigned, hence usage, law
Original Word: νόμος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: nomos
Phonetic Spelling: (nom'-os)
Short Definition: a law, the Mosaic Law

1 Yahchanan (John) 2:7, "Brothers, I write no new Laws to you, but the old Laws which you had from the beginning: The old Laws are the Law which you had from the beginning."

 

[crossnote]

Even though my questions get routinely ignored, will you reply to the line of questioning in 1555?

I did. See 1559

 

[crossnote]

Much of what you say is true, but the thing is this is an end time prophecy about the return of Messiah when all evil will be destroyed, and Yahweh says, REMEMBER the Law.

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

Yahweh and Yahshua seem to think this Law you call old and obsolete is not going away...

hmm, same as Yahchanan (John) and Shaul (Paul)

Romans 3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"

the word Law is: 3551. nomos
nomos: that which is assigned, hence usage, law
Original Word: νόμος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: nomos
Phonetic Spelling: (nom'-os)
Short Definition: a law, the Mosaic Law

1 Yahchanan (John) 2:7, "Brothers, I write no new Laws to you, but the old Laws which you had from the beginning: The old Laws are the Law which you had from the beginning."

That will be when Jer 31 (The New Covenant) will kick in for the remnant of Israel.
(that is when we see their mass conversion)

 

[Hizikyah]

I did. See 1559

I took time and answer what 3 requested posts, among others. When I ask a question it is ignored and more is asked of me without it being mutual.

? so... how did this

Hopeless. I keep bringing up ONLY the Mosaic law given to Israel and you go into Yahveh's law, moral law and now the New Covenant and the law of Christ... We're just two ships passing in the fog.

Answer this:

A true follower of the Messiah has entered into agreement/covenant with Yahweh.

And the Law of Yahweh AKA the TORAH, and you cant change the meaning of that, (the Torah is the Torah) it is written on the hearts of those that have been cleansed by the blood of Messiah.

SO explain to me how one can be a part of the covenant ratified in the blood of Messiah and not love, enjoy, and follow the Torah?

For it is written, "I will put My Law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts"

and the Law being talked about here is not a "new Law" it is the old Law, 1 Yahchanan (john) 2:7, "Brothers, I write no new Laws to you, but the old Laws which you had from the beginning: The old Laws are the Law which you had from the beginning."

Yeremyah 31:33, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israyl: After those days, says Yahweh: I will put My Law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and I will be their Strength, and they will be My people."

"Law" is word #H8451 - torah - torah: direction, instruction, law Original Word: תּוֹרָה Part of Speech: Noun Feminine Transliteration: torah

Hebrews 10:16, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says Yahweh: I will put My Law into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them."

the word Law is: 3551. nomos
nomos: that which is assigned, hence usage, law
Original Word: νόμος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: nomos
Phonetic Spelling: (nom'-os)
Short Definition: a law, the Mosaic Law
Definition: usage, custom, law; in NT: of law in general, plur: of divine laws; of a force or influence impelling to action; of the Mosaic law; meton: of the books which contain the law, the Pentateuch, the Old Testament scriptures in general.

 

[RedTent]

The Mosaic law contains the Moral law but the moral law also existed long before the Mosaic law.

It is contains moral law that existed before the mosaic law. That doesn't tell me what it is.

 

[Hizikyah]

That will be when Jer 31 (The New Covenant) will kick in for the remnant of Israel.
(that is when we see their mass conversion)

OK, so you have this as future and only for ?blood Hebrews?

Well if we are not or can not be a part of this, where is the "new covenant", if it is not this, there is no prophecy of it.

Also Shaul says there is no difference between Jew and Gentile, so how is there a distinction concerning this covenant in yeremyah 31?

 

[crossnote]

I am not saying one can't 'love and enjoy' Torah. What I am saying is that one is not UNDER the Mosaic Covenant as a basis of justification or sanctification or any type of merit. And one is doubly in error to teach others they are under oblgation to the Mosaic Law.
See, you also slipped in other laws e.g. the one written on our heart. Please stick with the Mosaic Law.

I took time and answer what 3 requested posts, among others. When I ask a question it is ignored and more is asked of me without it being mutual.

? so... how did this



Answer this:

A true follower of the Messiah has entered into agreement/covenant with Yahweh.

And the Law of Yahweh AKA the TORAH, and you cant change the meaning of that, (the Torah is the Torah) it is written on the hearts of those that have been cleansed by the blood of Messiah.

SO explain to me how one can be a part of the covenant ratified in the blood of Messiah and not love, enjoy, and follow the Torah?

For it is written, "I will put My Law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts"

and the Law being talked about here is not a "new Law" it is the old Law, 1 Yahchanan (john) 2:7, "Brothers, I write no new Laws to you, but the old Laws which you had from the beginning: The old Laws are the Law which you had from the beginning."

Yeremyah 31:33, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israyl: After those days, says Yahweh: I will put My Law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and I will be their Strength, and they will be My people."

"Law" is word #H8451 - torah - torah: direction, instruction, law Original Word: תּוֹרָה Part of Speech: Noun Feminine Transliteration: torah

Hebrews 10:16, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says Yahweh: I will put My Law into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them."

the word Law is: 3551. nomos
nomos: that which is assigned, hence usage, law
Original Word: νόμος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: nomos
Phonetic Spelling: (nom'-os)
Short Definition: a law, the Mosaic Law
Definition: usage, custom, law; in NT: of law in general, plur: of divine laws; of a force or influence impelling to action; of the Mosaic law; meton: of the books which contain the law, the Pentateuch, the Old Testament scriptures in general.

 

[Hizikyah]

I am not saying one can't 'love and enjoy' Torah. What I am saying is that one is not UNDER the Mosaic Covenant as a basis of justification or sanctification or any type of merit. And one is doubly in error to teach others they are under oblgation to the Mosaic Law.

Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."

iniquity is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

So what difference do you see in this new Law?

Just no Sabbath and no Feast Days?

 

[crossnote]

OK, so you have this as future and only for ?blood Hebrews?

Well if we are not or can not be a part of this, where is the "new covenant", if it is not this, there is no prophecy of it.

Also Shaul says there is no difference between Jew and Gentile, so how is there a distinction concerning this covenant in yeremyah 31?

Jer 31:31 is for Israel in the future when it was prophesied. Today believing gentiles partake of Israel's spiritual blessings through Christ and believing Jews do now but in the future they will in full after the Times of the Gentiles, all Israel will be saved, but not under the Mosaic Covenant but the New Covenant.

 

[crossnote]

Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."

iniquity is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

So what difference do you see in this new Law?

Just no Sabbath and no Feast Days?

That's the Kingdom law not the Church. The Church is not Israel.

 

[Hizikyah]

That's the Kingdom law not the Church. The Church is not Israel.

Galatians 3:28, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Messiah Yahshua."

Where in Scripture are they divided.

Colossians 3:11, "Where there is neither Greek nor Yahdai, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, slave, nor free; all of Messiah, and all in Messiah."

"Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all."

Scripture says Gentiles are grafted in to the same branch.

This next reading shows followers of Messiah are Israyl:

Romans 9:6-8, "However, it is not as though Yahweh's plan had failed. For it is not everyone who is a descendant of Israyl who belongs to Israyl. Nor, just because they are his descendants, are they all Abraham's children; but: In Isaac will your seed be called. That is, it is not those who are the children of the flesh who are Yahweh's children; but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's seed."

And what is "kingdom law?"

 

[Hizikyah]

Jer 31:31 is for Israel in the future when it was prophesied. Today believing gentiles partake of Israel's spiritual blessings through Christ and believing Jews do now but in the future they will in full after the Times of the Gentiles, all Israel will be saved, but not under the Mosaic Covenant but the New Covenant.

SO it is the "new Covenant" but gentiles are not a part of this?

Im confused with your stance.

 

[crossnote]

Galatians 3:28, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Messiah Yahshua."

Where in Scripture are they divided.

Colossians 3:11, "Where there is neither Greek nor Yahdai, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, slave, nor free; all of Messiah, and all in Messiah."

"Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all."

Scripture says Gentiles are grafted in to the same branch.

This next reading shows followers of Messiah are Israyl:

Romans 9:6-8, "However, it is not as though Yahweh's plan had failed. For it is not everyone who is a descendant of Israyl who belongs to Israyl. Nor, just because they are his descendants, are they all Abraham's children; but: In Isaac will your seed be called. That is, it is not those who are the children of the flesh who are Yahweh's children; but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's seed."

And what is "kingdom law?"

are you saying there is no longer male and female?
That verse refers to our justification and access to His throne...there is no difference in that regard.

 

[Hizikyah]

are you saying there is no longer male and female?
That verse refers to our justification and access to His throne...there is no difference in that regard.

Im saying what the Scripture says, that those who are followers of Messiah are Israyl/in covenant with Yahweh, all who dont follow Messiah are not.

Period, race, sex, social status do not matter.

Romans 9:6-8, "However, it is not as though Yahweh's plan had failed. For it is not everyone who is a descendant of Israyl who belongs to Israyl. Nor, just because they are his descendants, are they all Abraham's children; but: In Isaac will your seed be called. That is, it is not those who are the children of the flesh who are Yahweh's children; but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's seed."

Psalm 105:6-9, "O seed of Abraham His servant, You children of Yaaqob, His chosen ones! He is Yahweh our Father! His judgments are in all the earth. He has remembered His covenant forever, the Law He commanded for a thousand generations; Which He made; ratified, established, with Abraham, and vowed by His oath to Isaac. He confirmed it; let it stand, to Yaaqob for a Law, and to Israyl for an everlasting covenant."

Galations 3:28,29, "Is there not the Yahdai as well as the Greek; Gentile? Is there not the slave as well as the freeman? Is there not the male and the female? For all of you must be in unity in Yahshua Messiah. And if you are in Messiah, then you are a seed of Abraham, heirs according to the promise."

Psalam 89:26-37, "He will call out to Me; You are my Father, O Yahweh! You are the Rock of my salvation! And I will make Him My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. My mercy I will keep for Him forever and My covenant will stand fast with Him. And I will establish his Seed forever, and his throne will be as the days of heaven. Should his children forsake My Law, and refuse to walk in My judgments; Should they profane My statutes, and fail to keep My commandments; Then I will punish their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with lashes from the whip. Nevertheless, My lovingkindness I will not utterly withdraw from him, nor will I ever betray My faithfulness. My covenant I will not break, nor will I change what has gone out of My lips. Once for all, I have vowed by My holiness--I cannot lie, and I say to David: His Seed will endure forever, and his throne will endure before Me like the sun. His throne will be established forever like the moon: the faithful witness in the sky."

 

[crossnote]

SO it is the "new Covenant" but gentiles are not a part of this?

Im confused with your stance.

It was first promised to Israel. But on account of Christ and Him tearing down the middle wall of partition (Mosaic Law) through His death, the Gentiles can now become partakers of the spiritual blessings of the Abrahamic Covenant including Jer 31.