Is the "renewing of the mind " our responcibility?
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I see the mind as follows:
The seat of man's intellect is to be ruled by the conscience. However, the conscience is easily overruled by the five senses.
When we are born again, we receive that new creation within which aids our conscience so that we are able to more effectively withstand and overcome the onslaught from the five senses.
The new man is "like Christ" because the new man is Christ in you the hope of glory (Col 1:27).
When we see the new man evidenced in our lives it is because we reckon the old man "dead". And as we continue to put off the old man, the new man grows stronger, matures. The old man grows weaker and its impulses take root less and less.
The old man is not changed into the new man over a period of time, bit by bit. The old man is to be "crucified", "put off", reckoned as "dead". The new man is His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them (Eph 2:10).
The seat of man's intellect is to be ruled by the conscience. However, the conscience is easily overruled by the five senses.
When we are born again, we receive that new creation within which aids our conscience so that we are able to more effectively withstand and overcome the onslaught from the five senses.
The new man is "like Christ" because the new man is Christ in you the hope of glory (Col 1:27).
When we see the new man evidenced in our lives it is because we reckon the old man "dead". And as we continue to put off the old man, the new man grows stronger, matures. The old man grows weaker and its impulses take root less and less.
The old man is not changed into the new man over a period of time, bit by bit. The old man is to be "crucified", "put off", reckoned as "dead". The new man is His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them (Eph 2:10).
Was it God, our Father, or Jesus Christ our Lord that caused a believer to believe? Ultimately, the answer, is no! The individual person themselves, took this upon their self, whether to believe, or not! and then accepting...BY FAITH!.....Personal Responsibility!
Our minds are "renewed", to the full capacity, within that certain individuals ability to hold it. As well, as holding it there. Through trials and testings, while contending FOR the faith! These are "efforts", or "works" within this "new creation", and not some "show of force" by some group of like-minded believers, of the same "grade-level", so to speak. Is like going to "Spiritual School". Does one advance from grade school to high school, merely because one has reached a certain age. Irregardless, of knowledge, or wisdom gained? Perhaps, in "man's" school! In spiritual school? God did this once, in the garden of eden! God doesn't play that way no more!
So, to answer OP? YES! It is our "responsibility", in the renewing of our minds. This happens to the increase, as ones' heart is circumcised from the world, and becomes crucified WITH Christ, our Lord! For the glory of God our Father, in His victory OVER death, IN Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior!
Our minds are "renewed", to the full capacity, within that certain individuals ability to hold it. As well, as holding it there. Through trials and testings, while contending FOR the faith! These are "efforts", or "works" within this "new creation", and not some "show of force" by some group of like-minded believers, of the same "grade-level", so to speak. Is like going to "Spiritual School". Does one advance from grade school to high school, merely because one has reached a certain age. Irregardless, of knowledge, or wisdom gained? Perhaps, in "man's" school! In spiritual school? God did this once, in the garden of eden! God doesn't play that way no more!
So, to answer OP? YES! It is our "responsibility", in the renewing of our minds. This happens to the increase, as ones' heart is circumcised from the world, and becomes crucified WITH Christ, our Lord! For the glory of God our Father, in His victory OVER death, IN Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior!
Here's how I understand the process:
Our mind receives information through the five senses and that information is stored.
When we receive information from one or more of the five senses our minds decide whether to follow the impulse of the senses, or not follow the impulse. I do not believe we are to allow the five senses to "rule" over us.
According to Rom 13:14 we are delivered from this "body of death" through the Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 13:
14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
This is the only solution. When we put on the Lord Jesus Christ we are then able to make not provision for the flesh to fulfill the lusts thereof.
I refer to this as putting on the new man.
And I understand you refer to this as renewing your mind.
Here's my understanding of the verse:
Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit,
and the Spirit against the flesh:
and these are contrary the one to the other:
so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
We always see this verse as saying we cannot overcome the flesh because the flesh is contrary to the Spirit.
But look at vs 16: This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Then read vs. 17.
My understanding of these verses is that when we are walking by the Spirit (i.e. new man), the flesh cannot do what it wants, just as when we are walking by the flesh (old man), the new man (Spirit) cannot do what it wants.
Walking in the Spirit (new man) is the only way to overcome the lust of the flesh.
Right. And we're never left to do it alone. We know Father God and our Lord Jesus Christ are right there with us, holding us close, guiding us, and helping us walk in this life.
Our mind receives information through the five senses and that information is stored.
When we receive information from one or more of the five senses our minds decide whether to follow the impulse of the senses, or not follow the impulse. I do not believe we are to allow the five senses to "rule" over us.
According to Rom 13:14 we are delivered from this "body of death" through the Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 13:
14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
This is the only solution. When we put on the Lord Jesus Christ we are then able to make not provision for the flesh to fulfill the lusts thereof.
I refer to this as putting on the new man.
And I understand you refer to this as renewing your mind.
Here's my understanding of the verse:
Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit,
and the Spirit against the flesh:
and these are contrary the one to the other:
so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
We always see this verse as saying we cannot overcome the flesh because the flesh is contrary to the Spirit.
But look at vs 16: This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Then read vs. 17.
My understanding of these verses is that when we are walking by the Spirit (i.e. new man), the flesh cannot do what it wants, just as when we are walking by the flesh (old man), the new man (Spirit) cannot do what it wants.
Walking in the Spirit (new man) is the only way to overcome the lust of the flesh.
Right. And we're never left to do it alone. We know Father God and our Lord Jesus Christ are right there with us, holding us close, guiding us, and helping us walk in this life.
Yep, our mind receives information through the five senses and stores the that information. That is how "faith [trust] comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God." We only know about God and his Son through God's word. We only know how to live godly lives through God's word. Our minds do decide whether to follow [be conformed] to this world, live in the flesh letting the five senses lead us or to be transformed by renewing our minds to the word of God, live in the Spirit letting God's word lead us.
I was speaking of what Paul said - Oh wretched man that I am who shall deliver me from this body of death? [Romans 7:24] He was speaking of the old man nature where sin resides.
Where do we put on the Lord Jesus Christ?
What I refer to as renewing the mind is putting off the old and putting on the new . . . We put off our old man's thoughts and actions by putting on the new man
Correct, if we walk in the spirit (new man) we will overcome the lust of the flesh (old man). I have been saying the same thing as this.
I say it is done by renewing our mind to the word of God - you say God does it . . . And most translations have "by the renewing of YOUR mind". I like this AMP translation:
And do not be conformed to this world [any longer with its superficial values and customs], but be transformed and progressively changed [as you mature spiritually] by the renewing of your mind [focusing on godly values and ethical attitudes], so that you may prove [for yourselves] what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect [in His plan and purpose for you]. No longer conformed to the world with its superficial values and customs is putting off the old man - Focusing on godly values and ethical attitudes is putting on the new man.
This is the way I see it - you remember those cartoons with the devil on one shoulder and the angel on another shoulder? That's exactly how I see it - the flesh and the Spirit - one telling you to do something, the other telling you to do something else and they are contrary one to the other. IF I have not heard the word of God then I have nothing stored in my mind to counteract the old man (the flesh) - I need to renew my mind with the word of God in order to put off the old and put on the new . . . there has to be something replaced in my mind that was totally different than what I had before in order to give me the choice to walk in the flesh or walk in the Spirit.
Agreed!
Only the born again believer can put off the old / put on the new.
The natural man can follow his/her conscience. But the conscience is easily overridden by the senses.
The new man, which is Christ in you, is equipped with the mind of Christ (the renewed mind – that which is made "other and different from that which had been formerly"). That is the transformation which takes place as we put off the old man and put on the new man. The mind is renewed (not just the thoughts) --- in the new man the mind from which the thoughts flow is the mind of Christ.
We are still delivered from this "body of death" through the Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 7:
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God [new man]; but with the flesh [old man] the law of sin.
8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus [new man]
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord I am delivered from the body of this death
The new man serves the law of God. Old man is at enmity.
The old man serves the law of sin. New man does not serve sin. New man has God working within ... writing His law in the inward parts.
Putting on the new man is a completely new manner of life.
Put on the new man and in the new man put on the Lord Jesus Christ.
Old man will fight this instruction because when we put on the Lord Jesus Christ, the old man is crucified. Put to death. Old man wants to remain strong, vibrant, and in control.
Again, putting on the new man is more than just changing the thoughts of the old man and the old man's resultant actions.
In the new man we are completely transformed because the new man has the mind of Christ inherent within it. That mind of Christ is that which is "other and different from that which had been formerly".
The thoughts of the new man are aligned with the Word of God because the mind is "other and different" from the mind of the old man.
The actions of the new man are those good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them (Eph 2:10). And look at Eph 2:10, we are His [God's] workmanship, created in Christ Jesus ...
Since it is clear that this is God's work within us, how can we take any credit for what He works within us.
I understand we "put off" / "put on". But that is the extent of our input into the transformation which takes place.
Yes, I say that it is God Who works within so that I am transformed. Again, my part in the whole process is "put off the old man" and "put on the new man". It is the "new man" that God is conforming to the image of His Son. The old man is to be reckoned crucified, dead, mortified.
We have already gone through the fact that the translators rendered words τοῦ νοός as the English words "your mind". I believe the words τοῦ νοός should actually have been translated "the mind". I understand you and I are not in agreement on this point.
Yes. And the new man will always focus "on godly values and ethical attitudes".
The old man will always focus on "superficial values and customs".
The natural man can follow his/her conscience. But the conscience is easily overridden by the senses.
The new man, which is Christ in you, is equipped with the mind of Christ (the renewed mind – that which is made "other and different from that which had been formerly"). That is the transformation which takes place as we put off the old man and put on the new man. The mind is renewed (not just the thoughts) --- in the new man the mind from which the thoughts flow is the mind of Christ.
We are still delivered from this "body of death" through the Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 7:
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God [new man]; but with the flesh [old man] the law of sin.
8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus [new man]
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord I am delivered from the body of this death
The new man serves the law of God. Old man is at enmity.
The old man serves the law of sin. New man does not serve sin. New man has God working within ... writing His law in the inward parts.
Putting on the new man is a completely new manner of life.
Put on the new man and in the new man put on the Lord Jesus Christ.
Old man will fight this instruction because when we put on the Lord Jesus Christ, the old man is crucified. Put to death. Old man wants to remain strong, vibrant, and in control.
Again, putting on the new man is more than just changing the thoughts of the old man and the old man's resultant actions.
In the new man we are completely transformed because the new man has the mind of Christ inherent within it. That mind of Christ is that which is "other and different from that which had been formerly".
The thoughts of the new man are aligned with the Word of God because the mind is "other and different" from the mind of the old man.
The actions of the new man are those good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them (Eph 2:10). And look at Eph 2:10, we are His [God's] workmanship, created in Christ Jesus ...
Since it is clear that this is God's work within us, how can we take any credit for what He works within us.
I understand we "put off" / "put on". But that is the extent of our input into the transformation which takes place.
Yes, I say that it is God Who works within so that I am transformed. Again, my part in the whole process is "put off the old man" and "put on the new man". It is the "new man" that God is conforming to the image of His Son. The old man is to be reckoned crucified, dead, mortified.
We have already gone through the fact that the translators rendered words τοῦ νοός as the English words "your mind". I believe the words τοῦ νοός should actually have been translated "the mind". I understand you and I are not in agreement on this point.
Yes. And the new man will always focus "on godly values and ethical attitudes".
The old man will always focus on "superficial values and customs".
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The Christ in you is not the renewed mind. . . it is new and does not have to be "RE-newed" BUT the mind that you have had since birth needs to be renewed . . . That you put off concerning the former conversation (manner of life, conduct, behavior, deportment) the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; and be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that you put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. (Eph. 22-24) Where? in your mind
Romans 8:24 O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from this body of death. This is the future tense; not yet occurred, but will be . . . And yes we thank God through Jesus Christ because he died and God rose him from the dead - we also will be resurrected incorruptible. Until then we live in a corruptible body of flesh.
The new man is created after him (God) that created him (the new man) . . . there is no reason to but on the Lord Jesus Christ in our new man - our new man is the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of God: But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Romans 8:9) What makes you "not in the flesh"? being born again and that is what has changed. Literally we are still in corruptible bodies, our minds from birth are corruptible - we must renew our minds to line up with what has happened on the inside - put on the Lord Jesus Christ which is "being renewed in the spirit of our minds".
I agree that we have been born again of God and that now the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ dwell in us via the Holy Spirit. That is new and there is no need to RE new it. But my mind is still the same as it was at birth - "conformed to this world", i.e. in it's manner of life, conduct, behavior and deportment. I now have to take my mind, where the intellect and thoughts are and bring them captive to the knowledge of God, i.e. put on the Lord Jesus Christ (the new man). When I do that then my conduct, behavior, deportment will be renewed - other and different from that which has been formerly. As I put off the old man (that which was formerly) and put on the new man (different from that which has been formerly) - transformation occurs.
God has ordained good works that man should walk in - that is why scripture is replete with "do this" - "don't do this" . . . our inner man, the new man created in Christ Jesus is God's work within us and in the new man we know how we should walk but we still have the old man which has to be renewed in the knowledge of him (God) that created him (the new man). Correct - The transformation occurs to the extent we renew our minds, i.e. put off the old and put on the new. That is what I have been saying the whole time!
Bolded: Which is renewing your mind.
The new man IS the image of His Son . . . we are being conformed into that image as we put off the old and put on the new and are transformed. The old man is to be considered dead, crucified . . . Now if the old man is literally dead there is no need to put off the old man, no need for US to mortify the deeds of the flesh(be not conformed to this world) - we are to consider him dead by putting on the new man and walking accordingly.
I am not a Greek translator . . . I only have the reference of how Greek translators translated the verse and have to allow that they know more than I . . . if the majority of translators translated "your mind" then that is how I accept it.
This is another point of disagreement between us.
The mind of Christ is the renewed mind. The mind of Christ is that which is the "making other and different from that which had been formerly" (the mind that you have had since birth).
Eph 4:22 – put off the old man. The old man is "corrupt" (Gr. phtheírō) – waste away, corrupt (deteriorate); (figuratively) to cause or experience moral deterioration – i.e. decomposition (break-down), due to the corrupting influence of sin.
We are to put off the old man. The old man is corrupt. The lusts of the flesh are deceitful because what appears to be something good is, in reality, not good. Recall Eve in the garden when she saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise (Gen 3:6). Eve was beguiled (Gen 3:13) and deceived (1 Tim 2:14).
Eph 4:23 – and be renewed in the spirit of your mind. Here is what Bullinger says about this verse in his Figures of Speech Used in the Bible (bold/underline mine): "And be renewed in the spirit of your mind: i.e., that your whole new nature or inner man being a new creation, Divine in its origin and impeccable in its character now causes the whole course of the life to flow in a different direction."
New man does not clean up the old man. New man is a completely new creation within and we are to walk (live our lives) according to that new man. We walk in newness of life – Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: (old man – rendered dead) that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life (new man = newness of life). According to Bullinger's Lexicon, this newness of life is newly made; not merely recent, but different from that which had been formerly; new, as coming in the place of a thing that was formerly, and as not yet used.
I understand that in the future, our deliverance will be fully complete ... that our bodies will be changed and in new heaven / new earth we shall have bodies which will be incorruptible.
And my point is that in this lifetime, we are able to overcome the lusts of the flesh through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, just as we are told in Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
I realize we have this treasure in earthen vessels and the reason we have this treasure in earthen vessels is so that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us (2 Cor 4:7).
Our part — put off the old man / put on the new man.
God's part — the transformation process whereby our minds are "other and different from that which had been formerly" (i.e. the mind of Christ).
To undertake more of the process of renewing the mind than what is intended by God is not beneficial to us. Our instruction is to "put off the old man" and "put on the new man".
I have never said that that the new man needs to be renewed. Throughout the pages of this thread I have iterated (and reiterated) that the new man is the renewed mind because the mind of Christ (which is the renewed mind) is inherent in the new man.
Whenever we observe the works of the flesh exhibited in our lives, that is the clue that we have been drawn away from the new man and we are now living according to our old habits ... who we were in Adam.
The remedy is put off the old man and put on the new man. That is renewing the mind. God had the forethought to include in the new man that mind of Christ which transforms us and which proves that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
The new man is not the old man "cleaned up" a bit. The new man is a completely new creation. Old man is not changed into new man. Old man is dead. New man grows and matures from new birth to no longer children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine (Eph 4:14) to full age eating strong meat and by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil (Heb 5:14).
The old man is put off and reckoned dead. The new man grows and matures and in the new man we walk in newness of life.
The old man is not being conformed to the image of His Son. As the old man is continuously reckoned as "dead", the lusts of the flesh become weaker and weaker. The new man becomes stronger and stronger, able to recognize the deceitful lusts for what they are (a distraction designed to draw us away from who and what we are in our Lord Jesus Christ), and new man overcomes the flesh. And that new man shines through more and more each day for all to see.
The mind of Christ is the renewed mind. The mind of Christ is that which is the "making other and different from that which had been formerly" (the mind that you have had since birth).
Eph 4:22 – put off the old man. The old man is "corrupt" (Gr. phtheírō) – waste away, corrupt (deteriorate); (figuratively) to cause or experience moral deterioration – i.e. decomposition (break-down), due to the corrupting influence of sin.
We are to put off the old man. The old man is corrupt. The lusts of the flesh are deceitful because what appears to be something good is, in reality, not good. Recall Eve in the garden when she saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise (Gen 3:6). Eve was beguiled (Gen 3:13) and deceived (1 Tim 2:14).
Eph 4:23 – and be renewed in the spirit of your mind. Here is what Bullinger says about this verse in his Figures of Speech Used in the Bible (bold/underline mine): "And be renewed in the spirit of your mind: i.e., that your whole new nature or inner man being a new creation, Divine in its origin and impeccable in its character now causes the whole course of the life to flow in a different direction."
New man does not clean up the old man. New man is a completely new creation within and we are to walk (live our lives) according to that new man. We walk in newness of life – Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: (old man – rendered dead) that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life (new man = newness of life). According to Bullinger's Lexicon, this newness of life is newly made; not merely recent, but different from that which had been formerly; new, as coming in the place of a thing that was formerly, and as not yet used.
I understand that in the future, our deliverance will be fully complete ... that our bodies will be changed and in new heaven / new earth we shall have bodies which will be incorruptible.
And my point is that in this lifetime, we are able to overcome the lusts of the flesh through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, just as we are told in Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
I realize we have this treasure in earthen vessels and the reason we have this treasure in earthen vessels is so that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us (2 Cor 4:7).
Our part — put off the old man / put on the new man.
God's part — the transformation process whereby our minds are "other and different from that which had been formerly" (i.e. the mind of Christ).
To undertake more of the process of renewing the mind than what is intended by God is not beneficial to us. Our instruction is to "put off the old man" and "put on the new man".
I have never said that that the new man needs to be renewed. Throughout the pages of this thread I have iterated (and reiterated) that the new man is the renewed mind because the mind of Christ (which is the renewed mind) is inherent in the new man.
Whenever we observe the works of the flesh exhibited in our lives, that is the clue that we have been drawn away from the new man and we are now living according to our old habits ... who we were in Adam.
The remedy is put off the old man and put on the new man. That is renewing the mind. God had the forethought to include in the new man that mind of Christ which transforms us and which proves that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
The new man is not the old man "cleaned up" a bit. The new man is a completely new creation. Old man is not changed into new man. Old man is dead. New man grows and matures from new birth to no longer children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine (Eph 4:14) to full age eating strong meat and by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil (Heb 5:14).
The old man is put off and reckoned dead. The new man grows and matures and in the new man we walk in newness of life.
The old man is not being conformed to the image of His Son. As the old man is continuously reckoned as "dead", the lusts of the flesh become weaker and weaker. The new man becomes stronger and stronger, able to recognize the deceitful lusts for what they are (a distraction designed to draw us away from who and what we are in our Lord Jesus Christ), and new man overcomes the flesh. And that new man shines through more and more each day for all to see.
