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K
I know we are talking about Daniel, but also the verse in Matthew were Jesus says by no means where anybody of this generation pass away tell they see these things take place is being brought up to.
Most biblical scholars I have read seem to have believed, and still believe it is referring to those who were born the same time Israel become a nation in 1948.
Are there still people to this day that are still alive that were born in 1948 ? YES
Are the events that are taking place look like those that match up with Matthew 24 ? YES
Does Jesus also mention in this chapter the AOD and refer to the book of Daniel ? YES
If you put all of this together Jesus is showing that what He is saying, and what Daniel mentioned all fall hand and hand for the last days. Hince, not been fulfilled.
Not that this is actually relevant, but most biblical scholars think Jesus was talking about the destruction of the temple in AD 70.
Including the destruction of the temple?
24:1 Now[SUP] [/SUP]as Jesus was going out of the temple courts and walking away, his disciples came to show him the temple buildings.24:2 And he said to them,[SUP] [/SUP]“Do you see all these things? I tell you the truth,[SUP] [/SUP]not one stone will be left on another.[SUP] [/SUP]All will be torn down!”[SUP] [/SUP]
Including the destruction of the temple?
24:1 Now[SUP] [/SUP]as Jesus was going out of the temple courts and walking away, his disciples came to show him the temple buildings.24:2 And he said to them,[SUP] [/SUP]“Do you see all these things? I tell you the truth,[SUP] [/SUP]not one stone will be left on another.[SUP] [/SUP]All will be torn down!”[SUP] [/SUP]
You claim of immanence itself is date setting.
Imminence, imminent, liable to happen soon.
Jesus didn't return imminently after 1948, as Dispensationalists were in near unanimous harmony in proclaiming. Don't count on me being ignorant of how much rhetoric Dispensationalists devote to proclaiming the signs that this is the time of the second return. No day or hour, but really soon. But, really soon comes and goes, again and again.
No day our hour, but Jesus told us the generation, and you run from even that, because of past bruisings from errant predictions.
Re: AFTER indicates GAP; Time Scale Requires a Gap
Date-Setting for the Return of Christ is a serious error. Mark 13 says 2 X "you do not know when." For many days I tried to convince the Camping Cult man, "WitnessOfTheTruth" on YouTube that he was wrong to set a date, quoting him Mark 13 -- all to no avail.
Harold Camping was an amil date-setter, who I believe has now repented of his date-setting. May 21, 2011, came & went with no Return, no destruction, no nothing.
A nut may be of any nearly any eschatological persuasion whatsoever & also be a date-setter. But Dispensationalism sets no dates for the Rapture, as a main postulate of Dispensationalism is that the Rapture is an imminent event without any signs. There is no way to predict when it will happen. The judge was at the doors when James wrote. The Rapture has ever since been at hand.
Anyone who claims such a lie about Dispensationalism, needs to produce quotes from Scofield, LS Chafer, Walvoord, or Ryrie to prove his lie -- or retract.
IMHO Charles Ryrie's Dispensationalism Today is the definitive work on the subject, the one to argue with if one doesn't wish to tilt at windmills, fire cannon balls at canary birds, and attack straw men. Instead of believing slander and libel, read that book to know what the system is about.
Of course you can believe in dispensations, or be pre-mil, mid-trib, post-trib, preterist, historicist, eat post-toasties, or even be a non-Christian in eschatology & also be a date-setter. But dispensationalism is not characterized by date-setting.
I don't know if any Moslems are date-setters, but they also can believe in the return of Christ.
Date-Setting for the Return of Christ is a serious error. Mark 13 says 2 X "you do not know when." For many days I tried to convince the Camping Cult man, "WitnessOfTheTruth" on YouTube that he was wrong to set a date, quoting him Mark 13 -- all to no avail.
Harold Camping was an amil date-setter, who I believe has now repented of his date-setting. May 21, 2011, came & went with no Return, no destruction, no nothing.
A nut may be of any nearly any eschatological persuasion whatsoever & also be a date-setter. But Dispensationalism sets no dates for the Rapture, as a main postulate of Dispensationalism is that the Rapture is an imminent event without any signs. There is no way to predict when it will happen. The judge was at the doors when James wrote. The Rapture has ever since been at hand.
Anyone who claims such a lie about Dispensationalism, needs to produce quotes from Scofield, LS Chafer, Walvoord, or Ryrie to prove his lie -- or retract.
IMHO Charles Ryrie's Dispensationalism Today is the definitive work on the subject, the one to argue with if one doesn't wish to tilt at windmills, fire cannon balls at canary birds, and attack straw men. Instead of believing slander and libel, read that book to know what the system is about.
Of course you can believe in dispensations, or be pre-mil, mid-trib, post-trib, preterist, historicist, eat post-toasties, or even be a non-Christian in eschatology & also be a date-setter. But dispensationalism is not characterized by date-setting.
I don't know if any Moslems are date-setters, but they also can believe in the return of Christ.
One thing good about preterism:
A main truth to hold to in eschatology is that Christ's return is imminent. By that I mean that it could happen at any time, even now as I write, but we do not know when. He might not come for 200 years. Date-setting is heretical & knuckleheaded. But belief in imminence is a very important doctrine.
So I say to nail that one down first, then figure out the color of the toenails of the beast later.
It is hard to believe in imminence and be post-trib, but it is possible. There is the obtuse-me theory of post-trib imminence. Christ could thus return today because the trib just happened in the last 7 years, but I was too obtuse to see it. (This makes the trib potentially nebulous.)
As I say, one good thing about preterism is that a preterist can believe in the imminence of Christ's 2nd coming easier than a post-tribber can. For a preterist might say that the Tribulation happened years ago and is already past. Thus we don't need to wait for signs and tribulation to happen before Christ returns. Of course that requires that a preterist doesn't go all the way & totally deny that Christ is going to return.
Likewise an Amil can believe in Christ's imminent return, as Amil is not a coherent definite eschatological position, only a denial that the millennium is a future literal period of 1000 years. Thus Harold Camping was amil, yet believed that the Rapture with the destruction of the world was going to happen in 2011. He wasn't quite a believer in imminence, for he indicated that the Rapture could not happen until 2011. Once May 11 got here, then he believed in a more strict imminence.
So, IMHO, it is better to be a preterist & expect Christ's coming now, rather than hold some position that denies He could come today. And let us hold to that position with its practical consequences. We cannot change what will happen in the future (nor the sequence of events) by our theories. But we can have the blessed hope of seeing the Savior today, and thus be motivated to live a pure life.
Who would want to be found watching pornography when Christ returns? Who would want to be found acting nasty when he returns? Who would want to be found acting selfish when he returns? Would we not want to be loving & serving Him when He returns?
A main truth to hold to in eschatology is that Christ's return is imminent. By that I mean that it could happen at any time, even now as I write, but we do not know when. He might not come for 200 years. Date-setting is heretical & knuckleheaded. But belief in imminence is a very important doctrine.
So I say to nail that one down first, then figure out the color of the toenails of the beast later.
It is hard to believe in imminence and be post-trib, but it is possible. There is the obtuse-me theory of post-trib imminence. Christ could thus return today because the trib just happened in the last 7 years, but I was too obtuse to see it. (This makes the trib potentially nebulous.)
As I say, one good thing about preterism is that a preterist can believe in the imminence of Christ's 2nd coming easier than a post-tribber can. For a preterist might say that the Tribulation happened years ago and is already past. Thus we don't need to wait for signs and tribulation to happen before Christ returns. Of course that requires that a preterist doesn't go all the way & totally deny that Christ is going to return.
Likewise an Amil can believe in Christ's imminent return, as Amil is not a coherent definite eschatological position, only a denial that the millennium is a future literal period of 1000 years. Thus Harold Camping was amil, yet believed that the Rapture with the destruction of the world was going to happen in 2011. He wasn't quite a believer in imminence, for he indicated that the Rapture could not happen until 2011. Once May 11 got here, then he believed in a more strict imminence.
So, IMHO, it is better to be a preterist & expect Christ's coming now, rather than hold some position that denies He could come today. And let us hold to that position with its practical consequences. We cannot change what will happen in the future (nor the sequence of events) by our theories. But we can have the blessed hope of seeing the Savior today, and thus be motivated to live a pure life.
Who would want to be found watching pornography when Christ returns? Who would want to be found acting nasty when he returns? Who would want to be found acting selfish when he returns? Would we not want to be loving & serving Him when He returns?
K
Exactly, which is what i brought up about the 1948 date of when Israel became a nation.
The signs that Jesus gives in Matthew 24 seem to be taking place now, and those who were born in 1948 are not all dead.
Many are still alive today, my mom is an example of this. She was born in 1948, so this would fit what the Lord said that not all of this generation will pass away tell they see these things take place.
That could not have ended in 1988 as others have stated, because we don't live only tell we are 40 and then die.
They look at the word generation as just a 40 year span which is a mistake when mentioned here.
My mom is 66 now, so if you take and say that at an average that some can live to be 100 years old then we are looking at any time in the next 34 years the tribulation and Christ return can happen.
Now this is not to say His return can be found out because the bible makes it clear that no man will know the time and day of His return.
That is libel. Retract your falsehood. Utter garbage. I went to both a dispensational Bible college & seminary. Also I have read their books.
You are an accuser of the brethren. We do not set dates. Repent of your sin.
You are either ignorant or crassly cynical.
The dispensational system teaches that the Rapture has no signs. The signs apply to the 2nd coming of Christ, not to the Rapture. And none of them are happening today. Actually such sign-hysteria goes with the Historical view of Eschatology, instead of the Dispensational Futurist. Dispensationalists are futurists, finding the eschatological happenings to be in the future, rather than contemporary in history.
Now you may find preachers who are of any eschatological persuasion whatever setting dates, like Amil Harold Camping. But it is not dispensational to set dates. And you need to confess your sin on this one. Get out Ryrie, LS Chafer, or Scofield, and show where they ever set any date.
Baloney, I have never been bruised by date-settings, as they don't apply to me or to my system of theology. For shame with your falsehood.
Since you are a non-dispensationalist, then you can consider yourself bruised by the non-dispensationalist date settings. Shall you be categorized with Harold Camping?
The generation is the one that sees the signs, which are not happening now. I don't expect to ever see them, as I expect to be gone. The signs fit into Dan's 70th week, commonly called the tribulation.
Give up your libelous falsehoods. Quote Ryrie or recant. Your sayings things over & over without proof goes nowhere.
You are an accuser of the brethren. We do not set dates. Repent of your sin.
You are either ignorant or crassly cynical.
The dispensational system teaches that the Rapture has no signs. The signs apply to the 2nd coming of Christ, not to the Rapture. And none of them are happening today. Actually such sign-hysteria goes with the Historical view of Eschatology, instead of the Dispensational Futurist. Dispensationalists are futurists, finding the eschatological happenings to be in the future, rather than contemporary in history.
Now you may find preachers who are of any eschatological persuasion whatever setting dates, like Amil Harold Camping. But it is not dispensational to set dates. And you need to confess your sin on this one. Get out Ryrie, LS Chafer, or Scofield, and show where they ever set any date.
Baloney, I have never been bruised by date-settings, as they don't apply to me or to my system of theology. For shame with your falsehood.
Since you are a non-dispensationalist, then you can consider yourself bruised by the non-dispensationalist date settings. Shall you be categorized with Harold Camping?
The generation is the one that sees the signs, which are not happening now. I don't expect to ever see them, as I expect to be gone. The signs fit into Dan's 70th week, commonly called the tribulation.
Give up your libelous falsehoods. Quote Ryrie or recant. Your sayings things over & over without proof goes nowhere.
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Re: AFTER indicates GAP; Time Scale Requires a Gap
Incorrect. In Mark 13, Jesus tells us when in response to his disciples asking when. Jesus just didn't tell when down to the day. He also didn't say anything about his return being imminent (at least nothing more imminent than the lifetime of some standing there) or soon (in regards to when the events that would be signs of his return).
I don't know what Camping believed, other than his date setting. I didn't use Camping as an example of a Dispensationalist. But, I'm pretty confident that his date setting is related to Dispensationalist influence, and that his followers were made all more gullible by the popularity of Dispensationalism.
Incorrect. In Mark 13, Jesus tells us when in response to his disciples asking when. Jesus just didn't tell when down to the day. He also didn't say anything about his return being imminent (at least nothing more imminent than the lifetime of some standing there) or soon (in regards to when the events that would be signs of his return).
I don't know what Camping believed, other than his date setting. I didn't use Camping as an example of a Dispensationalist. But, I'm pretty confident that his date setting is related to Dispensationalist influence, and that his followers were made all more gullible by the popularity of Dispensationalism.
Let everyone reading this forum take note of Kenneth's statements. Is not Kenneth an example of a non-dispensationalist who follows the historical school at this point? Dispensationalism does not find the judgment of Church Christians in Mat 25 either.
And if Kenneth identifies the 2nd coming of Mat 24 with the rapture, that is also not dispensationalism.
We are not seeing the signs of Mat 24, which parallel the seals of Revelation 6. What we see are the same-ol same-ol of history, regular earthquakes, not earthquakes in various places or huge earthquakes where geological faults do not exist.
Nothing of sign value is happening from Mat 24.
So Kenneth, when you mother dies, will you change your eschatology?
I agree that Israel's return to the land does indicate that something is happening, but it is not a sign of Mat 24. Israel has to be in the land for the events of the trib to take place, however.
And if Kenneth identifies the 2nd coming of Mat 24 with the rapture, that is also not dispensationalism.
We are not seeing the signs of Mat 24, which parallel the seals of Revelation 6. What we see are the same-ol same-ol of history, regular earthquakes, not earthquakes in various places or huge earthquakes where geological faults do not exist.
Nothing of sign value is happening from Mat 24.
So Kenneth, when you mother dies, will you change your eschatology?
I agree that Israel's return to the land does indicate that something is happening, but it is not a sign of Mat 24. Israel has to be in the land for the events of the trib to take place, however.
Re: AFTER indicates GAP; Time Scale Requires a Gap
Sure, in response to the disciple's question about the destruction of the temple:
13:1 Now[SUP] [/SUP]as Jesus[SUP] [/SUP]was going out of the temple courts, one of his disciples said to him, “Teacher, look at these tremendous stones and buildings!”[SUP] [/SUP]13:2 Jesus said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone will be left on another.[SUP] [/SUP] All will be torn down!”[SUP] [/SUP]13:3 So[SUP] [/SUP]while he was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John,[SUP] [/SUP]and Andrew asked him privately, 13:4 “Tell us, when will these things[SUP] [/SUP]happen? And what will be the sign that all these things are about to take place?”
Sure, in response to the disciple's question about the destruction of the temple:
13:1 Now[SUP] [/SUP]as Jesus[SUP] [/SUP]was going out of the temple courts, one of his disciples said to him, “Teacher, look at these tremendous stones and buildings!”[SUP] [/SUP]13:2 Jesus said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone will be left on another.[SUP] [/SUP] All will be torn down!”[SUP] [/SUP]13:3 So[SUP] [/SUP]while he was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John,[SUP] [/SUP]and Andrew asked him privately, 13:4 “Tell us, when will these things[SUP] [/SUP]happen? And what will be the sign that all these things are about to take place?”
K
You must see that in Matthew 24 it is in two parts.
Jesus tells of signs that lead up to the tribulation period, and then the tribulation period begins.
The parallel teaching of Matthew 24 to Revelation has it's faults.
1) Talks about earthquakes in various places, meaning multiple. Revelations speaks of one great earthquake, the multiple lead up to the one great earthquake.
2) Jesus says do not be worried for the end is not yet with some of those signs. Revelations states a seven year end time tribulation period the ends with God's wrath poured out in the bowl judgments.
3) Nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom, earthquakes, pestilence is at an all time high now.
You say repeat of history, but even countries who have not had a history of internal civilian rise-up over their governments is happening now. Earthquakes and other natural disaster events are at an all time rise then ever before.
And do not believe the hype or lies that it is only because our media coverage is better.
Re: AFTER indicates GAP; Time Scale Requires a Gap
With the ASV, you may insert a paragraph break which is missing from your quote.
"3:1 And as he went forth out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Teacher, behold, what manner of stones and what manner of buildings! 2 And Jesus said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left here one stone upon another, which shall not be thrown down.
[obvious time gap]
3 And as he sat on the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, 4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when these things are all about to be accomplished?
[Mat 24:3b and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the consummation of the age?]
5 And Jesus began to say unto them, Take heed that no man lead you astray. 6 Many shall come in my name, saying, I am he; and shall lead many astray. 7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars, be not troubled: these things must needs come to pass; but the end is not yet. 8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; there shall be earthquakes in divers places; there shall be famines: these things are the beginning of travail.
9 But take ye heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in synagogues shall ye be beaten; and before governors and kings shall ye stand for my sake, for a testimony unto them. 10 And the gospel must first be preached unto all the nations. 11 And when they lead you to judgment, and deliver you up, be not anxious beforehand what ye shall speak: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye; for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Spirit. 12 And brother shall deliver up brother to death, and the father his child; and children shall rise up against parents, and cause them to be put to death. 13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.
14 But when ye see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not (let him that readeth understand), then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains: 15 and let him that is on the housetop not go down, nor enter in, to take anything out of his house: 16 and let him that is in the field not return back to take his cloak. 17 But woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! 18 And pray ye that it be not in the winter. 19 For those days shall be tribulation, such as there hath not been the like from the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never shall be. 20 And except the Lord had shortened the days, no flesh would have been saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom he chose, he shortened the days. 21 And then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is the Christ; or, Lo, there; believe it not: 22 for there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show signs and wonders, that they may lead astray, if possible, the elect. 23 But take ye heed: behold, I have told you all things beforehand.
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 and the stars shall be falling from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send forth the angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."
Looking at the context above and by comparison with Matthew, we see that 13:3 launches a different topic, not the destruction of the Temple. Those things which follow 13:3 clearly did not happen in AD 70 at the destruction of the Temple. We would be confused indeed if we did not know that the Lord added more words which Mark omits.
Actually only Luke records the material on the desolation of Jerusalem (which includes the destruction of the Temple); in Luke is material of the Olivet Discourse missing from Mark & Matthew.
20 But when ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that her desolation is at hand. 21 Then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains; and let them that are in the midst of her depart out; and let not them that are in the country enter therein. 22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led captive into all the nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
With the ASV, you may insert a paragraph break which is missing from your quote.
"3:1 And as he went forth out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Teacher, behold, what manner of stones and what manner of buildings! 2 And Jesus said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left here one stone upon another, which shall not be thrown down.
[obvious time gap]
3 And as he sat on the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, 4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when these things are all about to be accomplished?
[Mat 24:3b and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the consummation of the age?]
5 And Jesus began to say unto them, Take heed that no man lead you astray. 6 Many shall come in my name, saying, I am he; and shall lead many astray. 7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars, be not troubled: these things must needs come to pass; but the end is not yet. 8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; there shall be earthquakes in divers places; there shall be famines: these things are the beginning of travail.
9 But take ye heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in synagogues shall ye be beaten; and before governors and kings shall ye stand for my sake, for a testimony unto them. 10 And the gospel must first be preached unto all the nations. 11 And when they lead you to judgment, and deliver you up, be not anxious beforehand what ye shall speak: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye; for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Spirit. 12 And brother shall deliver up brother to death, and the father his child; and children shall rise up against parents, and cause them to be put to death. 13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.
14 But when ye see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not (let him that readeth understand), then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains: 15 and let him that is on the housetop not go down, nor enter in, to take anything out of his house: 16 and let him that is in the field not return back to take his cloak. 17 But woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! 18 And pray ye that it be not in the winter. 19 For those days shall be tribulation, such as there hath not been the like from the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never shall be. 20 And except the Lord had shortened the days, no flesh would have been saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom he chose, he shortened the days. 21 And then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is the Christ; or, Lo, there; believe it not: 22 for there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show signs and wonders, that they may lead astray, if possible, the elect. 23 But take ye heed: behold, I have told you all things beforehand.
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 and the stars shall be falling from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send forth the angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."
Looking at the context above and by comparison with Matthew, we see that 13:3 launches a different topic, not the destruction of the Temple. Those things which follow 13:3 clearly did not happen in AD 70 at the destruction of the Temple. We would be confused indeed if we did not know that the Lord added more words which Mark omits.
Actually only Luke records the material on the desolation of Jerusalem (which includes the destruction of the Temple); in Luke is material of the Olivet Discourse missing from Mark & Matthew.
20 But when ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that her desolation is at hand. 21 Then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains; and let them that are in the midst of her depart out; and let not them that are in the country enter therein. 22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led captive into all the nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
This is the interpretation that I get that 69 weeks have passed but the 70th week will not occur until the tribulation period which will be the time that God gives the world their way for 7 years to allow all people that do not love God to follow the beast kingdom and put them down and save Israel.
The reason why the 70th week could not have happened is because Israel was not in the truth because of their rejection of Christ so God punished them by allowing the Roman Empire to overthrow Jerusalem and the Jews were scattered in to the world.
Daniel said that the Jews have 70 weeks to get right by being in the truth which would be by accepting Christ as a nation.
Since they have 70 weeks to get right before God and they are not in that position for the Jews are not accepting Christ as a nation then the 70th week could not of happened for if it did Israel would of been right with God almost 2000 years ago which they were scattered in to the world for not accepting the truth.
So the 70th week is still to come which God is using that 7 years to allow the Gentiles that do not love Him to follow the beast kingdom and during the first half of the tribulation send 2 witnesses to the Jews to turn them to the truth that Jesus is their messiah which they then accept Christ.
So we see that since the Jews have 70 weeks to get right with God and they have not done it the 70th week will occur when God allows the Gentiles that do not love Him to follow the beast kingdom and work with Israel to turn them to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah which the world attacks Israel after the 7 years is up which is the battle of Armageddon.
So the Jews will get in the truth on the 70th week accepting Jesus as their Messiah which is a future event for they have not done it ever since Jesus was on earth until now.
Also the Bible speaks of Jesus in Daniel chapter 9,but in Daniel 9:26 it then speaks of the prince to come,which is the man of sin,that will come from the people that overthrew Jerusalem which is the Roman Empire,and continues talking about the man of sin in Daniel 9:27.
So Daniel 9:27 is not talking about Jesus but the prince to come which is the man of sin that will spread his abominations upon earth as he will be in to witchcraft and will not believe in a personal God but honor the God of forces.
The Bible says concerning the man of sin that he will step in to the Jewish temple and set up the abomination of desolation in the book of Daniel and in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 he will step in to the Jews temple and claim to be God and exalt himself above all that is called God or is worshipped.
When the 7 years begins the Jews will go back to animal sacrifices and at the halfway point the man of sin will step in to their temple and claim to be God and their Messiah and tell them to stop animal sacrificing and he will place the abomination of desolation and for the last three and one half years that he rules will spread his abominations throughout the earth.
So there is a 7 years period and he tells them to stop sacrificing animals and sets up the abomination of desolation which fits Daniel 9:27.
So Daniel 9:27 is not talking about Jesus but about the man of sin that stops the sacrifice and then causes the abominations that make desolate.
So the 70th week has not occurred because the nation of Israel are not in the truth that Jesus is their Messiah which they must do by the end of the 70 weeks,which God is saving the last week for the tribulation where He will then bring Israel as a nation to the truth the Jesus is their Messiah.
In Daniel 9:26 it talks of the prince to come,the man of sin,and continues talking about the man of sin in the next verse that he is the one that will cause the sacrifice to cease when Israel goes back to animal sacrifices,and places the abomination of desolation that is in a later chapter of Daniel.
Verse 9:26 is not talking about Jesus and does not fit Jesus because of that 7 years period,but it fits the man of sin with the 7 years tribulation period,which is when Israel will come to the truth on the 70 weeks which the Jews have to get right with God,and the man of sin will step in to their temple halfway through the tribulation,which he claims to be God three and one half years in to the tribulation,and sets up the abomination of desolation.
This is what makes sense to me and if the Jews have 70 weeks determined upon them to get right with God and accept Jesus as a nation then can someone tell me when they accepted Jesus as a nation from the time Christ was on earth until now to fulfill the 70 weeks.
They have not accepted Christ as a nation from the time Christ was on earth until now,and neither could they because God caused them to be scattered from off of Israel because of their rejection of Christ,so how can they accept Christ as a nation when they are separated from each other in different countries,and how can they accept Christ as a nation when they were not in the nation of Israel to make this possible.
But God said that he hid his face from the Jews because of their iniquities against Him but will take them out of the nations where He scattered them and bring them back to their land of Israel making them a nation again and then He will turn them to the truth and from then on they will know the LORD which will happen during the 70th week,the 7 years tribulation period.
That is the point that the Jews have 70 weeks to get right with God and accept Jesus which they have not done from the time Jesus was on earth until now so the 70th week could not of happened,but will happen during the tribulation period when God turns them to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah and at the same time allow all Gentiles that do not love Him to follow the beast kingdom.
[SUP]24[/SUP] Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
So we see that the Jews,the nation of Israel,has 70 weeks to get right with God,which can only be done if they accept Christ as a nation,which they have done yet,so the 70 weeks are not fulfilled.
[SUP]25[/SUP] Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
This is 69 weeks.
[SUP]
26[/SUP] And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
It talks of Jesus and then it talks of the prince to come,the man of sin,for he is a future person during the tribulation period.
[SUP]
27[/SUP] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate(Daniel 9:24-27).
It continues talking about the man of sin that he shall confirm a covenant for one week,which will be the week of the tribulation.The Jews will go back to animal sacrifices and he will step in to their temple halfway through the tribulation and tell them to stop animal sacrifices and he is their God,which he also addresses the world that he is God.
[SUP]1[/SUP] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[SUP]2[/SUP] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[SUP]3[/SUP] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[SUP]4[/SUP] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God(2 Thessalonians 2:1-4).
The man of sin steps in to the Jews temple halfway through the tribulation claiming to be God.
[SUP]31[/SUP] And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate(Daniel 11:31).
Daniel 11 talks of the power struggle to obtain the kingdom up to the man of sin that shall take away the daily sacrifice,which is three and one half years in to the tribulation,and place the abomination of desolation,as he spreads his lies and nature worship ways throughout the earth,that fits Daniel 9:27.The Bible says he will be against the holy covenant as he establishes a new covenant for one week with the Jews and then claims to be God and their Messiah halfway through the tribulation period,trying to thwart God's plan of the holy covenant,but God brings them to the truth and to the holy covenant which then the covenant that the man of sin established with them is no longer valid with the Jews and the Jews come to the truth and the man of sin persecutes all the Jews who have accepted Jesus as their Messiah.
So the 70th week will not happen until the tribulation period when God brings the Jews to the truth,at least that is what makes sense to me.
The reason why the 70th week could not have happened is because Israel was not in the truth because of their rejection of Christ so God punished them by allowing the Roman Empire to overthrow Jerusalem and the Jews were scattered in to the world.
Daniel said that the Jews have 70 weeks to get right by being in the truth which would be by accepting Christ as a nation.
Since they have 70 weeks to get right before God and they are not in that position for the Jews are not accepting Christ as a nation then the 70th week could not of happened for if it did Israel would of been right with God almost 2000 years ago which they were scattered in to the world for not accepting the truth.
So the 70th week is still to come which God is using that 7 years to allow the Gentiles that do not love Him to follow the beast kingdom and during the first half of the tribulation send 2 witnesses to the Jews to turn them to the truth that Jesus is their messiah which they then accept Christ.
So we see that since the Jews have 70 weeks to get right with God and they have not done it the 70th week will occur when God allows the Gentiles that do not love Him to follow the beast kingdom and work with Israel to turn them to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah which the world attacks Israel after the 7 years is up which is the battle of Armageddon.
So the Jews will get in the truth on the 70th week accepting Jesus as their Messiah which is a future event for they have not done it ever since Jesus was on earth until now.
Also the Bible speaks of Jesus in Daniel chapter 9,but in Daniel 9:26 it then speaks of the prince to come,which is the man of sin,that will come from the people that overthrew Jerusalem which is the Roman Empire,and continues talking about the man of sin in Daniel 9:27.
So Daniel 9:27 is not talking about Jesus but the prince to come which is the man of sin that will spread his abominations upon earth as he will be in to witchcraft and will not believe in a personal God but honor the God of forces.
The Bible says concerning the man of sin that he will step in to the Jewish temple and set up the abomination of desolation in the book of Daniel and in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 he will step in to the Jews temple and claim to be God and exalt himself above all that is called God or is worshipped.
When the 7 years begins the Jews will go back to animal sacrifices and at the halfway point the man of sin will step in to their temple and claim to be God and their Messiah and tell them to stop animal sacrificing and he will place the abomination of desolation and for the last three and one half years that he rules will spread his abominations throughout the earth.
So there is a 7 years period and he tells them to stop sacrificing animals and sets up the abomination of desolation which fits Daniel 9:27.
So Daniel 9:27 is not talking about Jesus but about the man of sin that stops the sacrifice and then causes the abominations that make desolate.
So the 70th week has not occurred because the nation of Israel are not in the truth that Jesus is their Messiah which they must do by the end of the 70 weeks,which God is saving the last week for the tribulation where He will then bring Israel as a nation to the truth the Jesus is their Messiah.
In Daniel 9:26 it talks of the prince to come,the man of sin,and continues talking about the man of sin in the next verse that he is the one that will cause the sacrifice to cease when Israel goes back to animal sacrifices,and places the abomination of desolation that is in a later chapter of Daniel.
Verse 9:26 is not talking about Jesus and does not fit Jesus because of that 7 years period,but it fits the man of sin with the 7 years tribulation period,which is when Israel will come to the truth on the 70 weeks which the Jews have to get right with God,and the man of sin will step in to their temple halfway through the tribulation,which he claims to be God three and one half years in to the tribulation,and sets up the abomination of desolation.
This is what makes sense to me and if the Jews have 70 weeks determined upon them to get right with God and accept Jesus as a nation then can someone tell me when they accepted Jesus as a nation from the time Christ was on earth until now to fulfill the 70 weeks.
They have not accepted Christ as a nation from the time Christ was on earth until now,and neither could they because God caused them to be scattered from off of Israel because of their rejection of Christ,so how can they accept Christ as a nation when they are separated from each other in different countries,and how can they accept Christ as a nation when they were not in the nation of Israel to make this possible.
But God said that he hid his face from the Jews because of their iniquities against Him but will take them out of the nations where He scattered them and bring them back to their land of Israel making them a nation again and then He will turn them to the truth and from then on they will know the LORD which will happen during the 70th week,the 7 years tribulation period.
That is the point that the Jews have 70 weeks to get right with God and accept Jesus which they have not done from the time Jesus was on earth until now so the 70th week could not of happened,but will happen during the tribulation period when God turns them to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah and at the same time allow all Gentiles that do not love Him to follow the beast kingdom.
[SUP]24[/SUP] Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
So we see that the Jews,the nation of Israel,has 70 weeks to get right with God,which can only be done if they accept Christ as a nation,which they have done yet,so the 70 weeks are not fulfilled.
[SUP]25[/SUP] Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
This is 69 weeks.
[SUP]
26[/SUP] And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
It talks of Jesus and then it talks of the prince to come,the man of sin,for he is a future person during the tribulation period.
[SUP]
27[/SUP] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate(Daniel 9:24-27).
It continues talking about the man of sin that he shall confirm a covenant for one week,which will be the week of the tribulation.The Jews will go back to animal sacrifices and he will step in to their temple halfway through the tribulation and tell them to stop animal sacrifices and he is their God,which he also addresses the world that he is God.
[SUP]1[/SUP] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[SUP]2[/SUP] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[SUP]3[/SUP] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[SUP]4[/SUP] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God(2 Thessalonians 2:1-4).
The man of sin steps in to the Jews temple halfway through the tribulation claiming to be God.
[SUP]31[/SUP] And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate(Daniel 11:31).
Daniel 11 talks of the power struggle to obtain the kingdom up to the man of sin that shall take away the daily sacrifice,which is three and one half years in to the tribulation,and place the abomination of desolation,as he spreads his lies and nature worship ways throughout the earth,that fits Daniel 9:27.The Bible says he will be against the holy covenant as he establishes a new covenant for one week with the Jews and then claims to be God and their Messiah halfway through the tribulation period,trying to thwart God's plan of the holy covenant,but God brings them to the truth and to the holy covenant which then the covenant that the man of sin established with them is no longer valid with the Jews and the Jews come to the truth and the man of sin persecutes all the Jews who have accepted Jesus as their Messiah.
So the 70th week will not happen until the tribulation period when God brings the Jews to the truth,at least that is what makes sense to me.
For $64,000 & a box of Post Toasties, tell us where the Bible says "the Church is Israel," or "Israel is the Church."
1:1 I say then, Did God cast off his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not cast off his people which he foreknew. Or know ye not what the scripture saith of Elijah? how he pleadeth with God against Israel: 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, they have digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have left for myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. 7 What then? That which Israel seeketh for, that he obtained not; but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened: 8 according as it is written, God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this very day. 9 And David saith,
Let their table be made a snare, and a trap,
And a stumblingblock, and a recompense unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see,
And bow thou down their back always.
11 I say then, Did they stumble that they might fall? God forbid: but by their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if their fall is the riches of the world, and their loss the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 But I speak to you that are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I glorify my ministry; 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy them that are my flesh, and may save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them is the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16 And if the firstfruit is holy, so is the lump: and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and thou, being a wild olive, wast grafted in among them, and didst become partaker with them of the root of the fatness of the olive tree; 18 glory not over the branches: but if thou gloriest, it is not thou that bearest the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. 20 Well; by their unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by thy faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 for if God spared not the natural branches, neither will he spare thee. 22 Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God’s goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they continue not in their unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if thou wast cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and wast grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree; how much more shall these, which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in; 26 and so all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written,
There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer;
He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 And this is my covenant unto them,
When I shall take away their sins.
28 As touching the gospel, they are enemies for your sake: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sake. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are not repented of.
1:1 I say then, Did God cast off his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not cast off his people which he foreknew. Or know ye not what the scripture saith of Elijah? how he pleadeth with God against Israel: 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, they have digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have left for myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. 7 What then? That which Israel seeketh for, that he obtained not; but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened: 8 according as it is written, God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this very day. 9 And David saith,
Let their table be made a snare, and a trap,
And a stumblingblock, and a recompense unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see,
And bow thou down their back always.
11 I say then, Did they stumble that they might fall? God forbid: but by their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if their fall is the riches of the world, and their loss the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 But I speak to you that are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I glorify my ministry; 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy them that are my flesh, and may save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them is the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16 And if the firstfruit is holy, so is the lump: and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and thou, being a wild olive, wast grafted in among them, and didst become partaker with them of the root of the fatness of the olive tree; 18 glory not over the branches: but if thou gloriest, it is not thou that bearest the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. 20 Well; by their unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by thy faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 for if God spared not the natural branches, neither will he spare thee. 22 Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God’s goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they continue not in their unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if thou wast cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and wast grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree; how much more shall these, which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in; 26 and so all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written,
There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer;
He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 And this is my covenant unto them,
When I shall take away their sins.
28 As touching the gospel, they are enemies for your sake: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sake. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are not repented of.