Is there a break in Daniel's 70 weeks? (Daniel 9:26)

[jb]

Not that this is actually relevant, but most biblical scholars think Jesus was talking about the destruction of the temple in AD 70.

The context of Matt 24 is set by the question that the disciples ask Him in Matt 24v3, which states:

Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying,"Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

They ask 3 things:

1) "when will these things be?"

2) "And what will be the sign of Your coming,"

3) "and of the end of the age?"

So, the context of Matt 24 is primarily the signs that immediately precede His 2nd Coming, He especially directs them to Daniel's 70th week prophecy (Dan 9v27, 11v31, 12v11) for the cardinal sign to look out for, when Antichrist breaks the covenant and sets up his image (the "abomination of desolation") in the Holy Place in the Temple in Jerusalem, His 2nd Coming will be three and a years later. 2Thess 2v1-12, Rev 11v1,2, 13v14,15...

So, we will not know the day or hour of His Coming BUT we will surely know the week of His 2nd Coming from this wonderful prophecy! Matt 24v33,36

QED!

Yahweh Shalom

 

[jb]

The context of Matt 24 is set by the question that the disciples ask Him in Matt 24v3, which states:

Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying,"Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

They ask 3 things:

1) "when will these things be?"

2) "And what will be the sign of Your coming,"

3) "and of the end of the age?"

So, the context of Matt 24 is primarily the signs that immediately precede His 2nd Coming, He especially directs them to Daniel's 70th week prophecy (Dan 9v27, 11v31, 12v11) for the cardinal sign to look out for, when Antichrist breaks the covenant and sets up his image (the "abomination of desolation") in the Holy Place in the Temple in Jerusalem, His 2nd Coming will be three and a years later. 2Thess 2v1-12, Rev 11v1,2, 13v14,15...

So, we will not know the day or hour of His Coming BUT we will surely know the week of His 2nd Coming from this wonderful prophecy! Matt 24v33,36

QED!

Yahweh Shalom

So, with Daniel's 70th week still future (as it covers the last 7 years of this age), there is most categorically a break between Daniel's 69th and 70th prophetic weeks!

 

[Jamal]

24:1 Nowas Jesus was going out of the temple courts and walking away, his disciples came to show him the temple buildings.24:2 And he said to them,“Do you see all these things? I tell you the truth,not one stone will be left on another.All will be torn down!”

What's hard to understand about that? Nothing.

Then the disciples asked when the temple would be destroyed and the (temple) age end, Jesus replied within their lifetime. In 70AD, it came to pass. But, instead of taking this as a wonderful example of prophecy fulfilled (along with an unbroken calendar from Daniel's 70 weeks), we have Christians running around turning eschology into a fantastical pile of steaming nonsense.

Nonsensical, even satanic, doctrine is part of the decline of the church, which is destroying faith in America. But, Jesus told us something else. The gates of Hell will not prevail against the church. That is, the church won't die. It's in decline, but I have faith that eventually it'll recover. It might take the destruction, or otherwise growing irrelevance of the state of Israel, but it'll happen.

 

[Atwood]

PRETERISM HAS PROBLEMS WITH THE SIGNS

Why doth this generation seek a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.

"Then certain of the scribes and Pharisees answered him, saying, Teacher, we would see a sign from thee. 39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet: 40 for as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

Now if you try to force the Olivet Discourse into being fulfilled with the destruction of the Temple & Jerusalem, how do you account for the above scripture? Doesn't the Olivet Discourse have signs???

Now the generation that won't pass away before the fulfillment of the prophecy cannot be the generation standing there -- it must be the generation that sees the signs, which cannot be the generation which the Lord said would never see any signs (other than that of Jonah)!



31 And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 32 Now from the fig tree learn her parable: when her branch is now become tender, and putteth forth its leaves, ye know that the summer is nigh; 33 even so ye also, when ye see all these things, know ye that he is nigh, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no one, not even the angels of heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only. 37 And as were the days of Noah, so shall be the coming of the Son of man.


27 And then shall he send forth the angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. 28 Now from the fig tree learn her parable: when her branch is now become tender, and putteth forth its leaves, ye know that the summer is nigh; 29 even so ye also, when ye see these things coming to pass, know ye that he is nigh, even at the doors. 30 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished. 31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 32 But of that day or that hour knoweth no one, not even the angels in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. 33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.


29 And he spake to them a parable: Behold the fig tree, and all the trees: 30 when they now shoot forth, ye see it and know of your own selves that the summer is now nigh. 31 Even so ye also, when ye see these things coming to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh. 32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished.

 

[Atwood]

PRETERISM CANNOT HANDLE THE GENERATION SIGNS

What's hard to understand about that? Nothing.

There is nothing hard to understand about Preterism; it is forced Alice in Wonderland interpretation.

Then the disciples asked when the temple would be destroyed and the (temple) age end, Jesus replied within their lifetime.

Now what verse do you have for that one???

"This generation shall not pass" refers to the generation that sees the signs He announced. The signs are signs of Christ's return & of the consummation of the Age, not of the Temple destruction in that context. And He also proclaimed that
NO SIGN (but of Jonah) would be given to "this generation," in reference to those standing there.

They cannot be the same generation!

 

[GaryA]

The things foretold in the Olivet Discourse cover a time span from before 70 A.D. until some point in our future.

Part of Olivet Discourse prophesy has been fulfilled. The rest of it is yet future.

Part of it pertains to Israel only. The rest of it pertains to the whole world.

 

[Jamal]

Re: PRETERISM CANNOT HANDLE THE GENERATION SIGNS

"This generation shall not pass" refers to the generation that sees the signs He announced.

As a matter of grammatical meaning, "this generation" refers to Jesus' generation. You simply refuse to believe what Jesus says.

The signs are signs of Christ's return & of the consummation of the Age, not of the Temple destruction in that context. And He also proclaimed that
NO SIGN (but of Jonah) would be given to "this generation," in reference to those standing there.

They cannot be the same generation!

And, yet, Jesus performed countless signs, as did the apostles, in that generation's day. (See, I said "that generation" because I wasn't referring to my own generation, but to another generation which has been previously referred to.) Further, if the sign of Jonah is the only sign they'll receive... When Jesus said that's the only sign they'll get, either he was talking about a sign for something else, or that sign proves the first century for the events of the Olivet discourse.

 

[dcontroversal]

The things foretold in the Olivet Discourse cover a time span from before 70 A.D. until some point in our future.

Part of Olivet Discourse prophesy has been fulfilled. The rest of it is yet future.

Part of it pertains to Israel only. The rest of it pertains to the whole world.

Who was Jesus speaking to when he gave the discourse? HIS DISCIPLES....

HIS DISCIPLES were men who had been saved, immersed and are spoken of as a church in the present context no less than two or three times....

Yes, there are yet future prophesies that will apply unto Israel, but most over look the fact that he was talking to and teaching the 1st New Testament Church when Matthew 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13 were given......just saying that is.

WHEN YOU ALL SHALL SEE....meaning...which ever church was alive and present when the end comes.......

 

[GaryA]

Part of it pertains to Israel only. The rest of it pertains to the whole world.

"Perhaps I did not use the best wording...???"

I believe that the description in Matthew 24:15-20 / Mark 13:14-18 / Luke 21:20-23 pertains to Israel -- an event and occurrence that is very specific to Israel [ the location ] -- 'let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains' and 'when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies' do not have a world-wide scope. That part of the Olivet Discourse prophecy is referring to a localized event.

The rest of it pertains to the whole world -- it has a world-wide scope.

 

[Atwood]

The things foretold in the Olivet Discourse cover a time span from before 70 A.D. until some point in our future.

Part of Olivet Discourse prophesy has been fulfilled. The rest of it is yet future.

Part of it pertains to Israel only. The rest of it pertains to the whole world.

None of it pertains to the Church, which is never mentioned -- nor the Rapture.

 

[Atwood]

Re: PRETERISM CANNOT HANDLE THE GENERATION SIGNS

[/COLOR][/SIZE]As a matter of grammatical meaning, "this generation" refers to Jesus' generation. You simply refuse to believe what Jesus says.

False, as a matter of context and grammar, "this generation" cannot refer to that of the people standing there. The people who won't pass are those who see the signs; but the generation of those standing there were told they would NOT get any sign after the resurrection. Look at the context.

 

[Atwood]

"Perhaps I did not use the best wording...???"

I believe that the description in Matthew 24:15-20 / Mark 13:14-18 / Luke 21:20-23 pertains to Israel -- an event and occurrence that is very specific to Israel [ the location ] -- 'let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains' and 'when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies' do not have a world-wide scope. That part of the Olivet Discourse prophecy is referring to a localized event.

The rest of it pertains to the whole world -- it has a world-wide scope.

Gary, if you will closely compare Luke with the other 2 gospels for the Olivet Discourse, you will see that Luke has a section that the other 2 gospels do not have.

Consider that while the destruction of Jerusalem & the temple does have parallel to the outbreak of persecution & martyrdom which follows the setting up of an idol in the Temple (abomination) parallel to the 5th Seal of Rev 6 & 2 Thes 2; the destruction of Jeru with the armies there, is quite distinct from the outbreak of persecution that necessitates flight in the middle of Daniels' 70th week (Seal 5).

 

[Atwood]

Olivet Disc Luke21

Luke addresses the Jewish War vs Rome & the Destruction of the Jerusalem where Mat & Mk are silent on this. Here is Luke's special passage:

20 But when ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that her desolation is at hand. 21 Then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains; and let them that are in the midst of her depart out; and let not them that are in the country enter therein. 22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led captive into all the nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


25 And there shall be signs in sun and moon and stars;

Note how with very broad brush the period for AD 70 - the signs of the 2nd Coming are painted.

Captive into all the nations = at AD 70 & its aftermath.

Jeru trodden down of the Gentiles:
covers the entire rest of the Church Age, though the Church is not mentioned. This down-trodding continues to this very day & has not yet ended. The Times of the Gentile Kingdoms ends with the stone in Dan 2 whacking the feet of the 4-metal image & the Kingdom of God established on earth.

flee unto the mountains is a bit parallel to the flight of Israel at the 5th Seal following the abomination in the Temple (2 Th 2). See also Revelation 12. But the flight of those who knew this prophecy at the Roman attack on Jerusalem (c. 66-70 AC), is different from the flight at the setup of the abomination yet to come in the midst of Dan's 70th week.

signs in sun and moon and stars is way in the future to AD 70. These happen near the end of the Times of the Gentiles and are yet to come. The generation standing there did not see these signs & could not because the Lord told them they would not be getting any sign.


At any rate, you may compare Luke to confirm for yourself how this material is unique to Luke (not in Mat or Mark).

 

[Jamal]

Re: PRETERISM CANNOT HANDLE THE GENERATION SIGNS

False, as a matter of context and grammar, "this generation" cannot refer to that of the people standing there. The people who won't pass are those who see the signs; but the generation of those standing there were told they would NOT get any sign after the resurrection. Look at the context.

If you won't believe me, and you can't use the Internet to learn some basic grammar, go to an English or Greek teacher and stop arguing from ignorance. What am I suppose to say to you when your refuse to understand basic grammar? Lift a finger and educate yourself.

 

[Jamal]

"Perhaps I did not use the best wording...???"

I believe that the description in Matthew 24:15-20 / Mark 13:14-18 / Luke 21:20-23 pertains to Israel -- an event and occurrence that is very specific to Israel [ the location ] -- 'let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains' and 'when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies' do not have a world-wide scope. That part of the Olivet Discourse prophecy is referring to a localized event.

The rest of it pertains to the whole world -- it has a world-wide scope.

What indicates a worldwide scope?

 

[GaryA]

The passage should not be figuratively spiritualized, since the context is explicit and makes sense taken literally...

Exactly!


Daniel 9:

[SUP]24[/SUP] Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.


The "explicit context" and "literal sense" of this verse is:

The seventy weeks are a single continual 490-year span of time -- during which all of the things listed in the verse would be fulfilled ( and, they were - all of them - 100% ) -- at the end of which the 'times of the Jews' would be over and the 'times of the Gentiles' would usher in.

Breaking the seventy-week / 490-year span of time ... breaks the simple, straight-forward prophecy --- and makes very bad doctrine out of it...

 

[GaryA]

The 70th Week of Daniel, by no stretch of imagination, has yet happened.

Only in someone's imagination has the 70th Week of Daniel not yet happened.

 

[GaryA]

The generation that will not pass away is the
generation that SEES THE SIGNS,
not the generation to which his disciples belonged.

I used to believe this myself, but then...

I believe that the phrase 'this generation' is referring to the generation of people who ''see all these things"...

Or possibly, 'this generation' IS actually referring to the "current generation" at the time this was originally written IF the word 'fulfilled' is taken to mean 'begin to come to pass':

Consider:

Strong's G1096 for "come to pass" in Revelation 1:1

1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen a) of events
3) to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage a) of men appearing in public
4) to be made, finished a) of miracles, to be performed, wrought
5) to become, be made

When I cannot find a specific definition tied to a particular usage - I generally use the first one, which is usually the most common usage. And, since most of these definitions carry with it the idea of "beginning and continuing" anyway -- I am going to suggest that the true "sense and tense" of the phrase 'Must Shortly Come To Pass' actually means "Must Shortly Begin To Come To Pass"...

And - yes - the phrase "shortly come to pass" in Revelation 1:1 and the phrase "shortly be done" in Revelation 22:6 are the same in the Greek.

"Something to think about..."

The word 'fulfilled' in Matthew 24:34 and the words 'be done' in Mark 13:30 are this same word in the Greek.

The disciples who heard the Olivet Discourse,
did not see the signs nor did the consummation of the age come, nor did Christ return in their life time.

The 'consummation' is yet future. I agree that the return of Christ is also yet future.

 

[GaryA]

Wasnt the break invented to make the rapture theory fit?

Yes - exactly and precisely. It sure seems that way, doesn't it?

 

[GaryA]

The context of Matt 24 is set by the question that the disciples ask Him in Matt 24v3, which states:

Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying,"Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

The context of Matthew 24 is set by the intent of the prophetic statements of Jesus. He actually gave them more information than what they asked for.

They ask 3 things:

1) "when will these things be?"

2) "And what will be the sign of Your coming,"

3) "and of the end of the age?"

In 'time and event' terms, your #2 and #3 actually go together.

The Matthew account does not pose three distinct questions.

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? ~ Matthew 24:3

Grammatically speaking, both 'of thy coming' and 'of the end of the world' are prepositional to 'the sign' -- both are descriptive modifications of 'what shall be the sign' -- both "go together" as two 'facets' of the same 'event' - which is to be "indicated" by 'the sign'. ( And, considering that the Second Coming of Christ actually marks 'the end of the world'... ( as related in the context of this verse ) )

So, the context of Matt 24 is primarily the signs that immediately precede His 2nd Coming, ...

The context of Matthew 24 includes a span of time from before 70 A.D. until some point in our future.