Is there ever any condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus?

valiant · Apr 15, 2017

Roughsoul1991 said:

This shows a total lack of understanding of Scripture. We are not 'given grace' (except in a secondary sense when it refers to gifts), Rather the grace of God acts towards us. God working in grace produces salvation and faith, not vice versa.

what they made shipwreck of was 'the faith' not of faith itself

valiant · Apr 15, 2017

Roughsoul1991 said:

Barnes commentary
For it is impossible - It is needless to say that the passage here Hebrews 6:4-6, has given occasion to much controversy, and that the opinions of commentators and of the Christian world are yet greatly divided in regard to its meaning. On the one hand, it is held that the passage is not intended to describe those who are true Christians, but only those who have been awakened and enlightened, and who then fall back; and on the other it is maintained that it refers to those who are true Christians, and who then apostatize. The contending parties have been Calvinists and Arminians; each party, in general, interpreting it according to the views which are held on the question about falling from grace. I shall endeavor, as well as I may be able, to state the true meaning of the passage by an examination of the words and phrases in detail, observing here, in general, that it seems to me that it refers to true Christians; that the object is to keep them from apostasy, and that it teaches that if they should apostatize, it would be impossible to renew them again or to save them. That it refers to true Christians will be apparent from these considerations.
(1) Such is the sense which would strike the great mass of readers. Unless there were some theory to defend, the great body of readers of the New Testament would consider the expression used here as describing true Christians.

(2) The connection demands such an interpretation. The apostle was addressing Christians. He was endeavoring to keep them from apostasy. The object was not to keep those who were awakened and enlightened from apostasy, but it was to preserve those who were already in the Church of Christ, from going back to perdition. The kind of exhortation appropriate to those who were awakened and convicted, but who were not truly converted, would be "to become converted;" not to warn them of the danger of "falling away." Besides, the apostle would not have said of such persons that they could not be converted and saved. But of sincere Christians it might be said with the utmost propriety, that they could not be renewed again and be saved if they should fall away - because they rejected the only plan of salvation after they had tried it, and renounced the only scheme of redemption after they had tasted its benefits. If that plan could not save them, what could? If they neglected that, by what other means could they be brought to God?

(3) This interpretation accords, as I suppose, with the exact meaning of the phrases which the apostle uses. An examination of those phrases will show that he refers to those who are sincere believers. The phrase "it is impossible" obviously and properly denotes absolute impossibility. It has been contended, by Storr and others, that it denotes only great difficulty. But the meaning which would at first strike all readers would be that "the thing could not be done;" that it was not merely very difficult, but absolutely impracticable. The word - ἀδύνατον adunaton - occurs only in the New Testament in the following places, in all which it denotes that the thing could not be done; Matthew 19:26; Mark 10:27, "With men this is impossible;" that is, men could not save one who was rich, implying that the thing was wholly beyond human power. Luke 18:27, "the things which are impossible with men are possible with God" - referring to the same case; Acts 14:8, "A man of Lystra, impotent in his feet;" that is, who was wholly "unable" to walk; Romans 8:3, "For what the law could not do;" what was absolutely "impossible" for the Law to accomplish; that is, to save people; Hebrews 6:18, "In which it was impossible for God to lie;" Hebrews 10:4, "It is not possible for the blood of bulls and of goats to take away sin;" and Hebrews 11:6, "Without faith it is impossible to please God;" in all of these instances denoting absolute impossibility.

These passages show that it is not merely a great difficulty to which the apostle refers, but that he meant to say that the thing was wholly impracticable.

Heb 6:7
For the land which hath drunk the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them for whose sake it is also tilled, receiveth blessing from God:
Heb 6:8
but if it beareth thorns and thistles, it is rejected and nigh unto a curse; whose end is to be burned.

The people involved are either good ground or bad ground and produce , or otherwise, accordingly This suggests that the one are of God and the others are not. See the parable of the sower.

v9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak:

the good ground produces the things that accompany salvation

valiant · Apr 15, 2017

know1 said:

The latter phrase gives, not a condition, but a resultant. It does not mean 'IF they walk not after the flesh', but 'as they walk not after the flesh', as the next verse confirms..

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I suggest you read a scholarly book about it. Then you will find out why. It is not a matter of quantity but quality,

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lol you have come to your decision, The world stands still.

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which Catholic Bible?

your earliest witnesses are K L and P, the earliest 6th century The early papyri don't support you. Nor does A completely

That is simply untrue

It is unimportant, See above.

valiant · Apr 15, 2017

.

This is very misleading. It was not in the original text but was included by the second reviser and then erased later .

limey410 · Apr 15, 2017

Rockrz said:

That's a lie... all sorts of references of to walking after the flesh making it possible to fall away as being sin and causing one to not enter the Kingdom of God. Just to help you out, here's a few you obviously don't know about:

Galatians 6:7,8
For he that sows to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man sows, that shall he also reap.

1 Cor 15:50
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Romans 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that does evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
But glory, honor, and peace, to every man that works good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
For there is no respect of persons with God.

MAJOR Warning from the Lord!(*This means we really should pay attention)
Hebrews 3:6-19
But Christ as a son over His own house; whose house are we, IF we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. (see Mark 4:14-20)
Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, today if ye will hear His voice,
Harden NOT your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do always err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
So I swore in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
While it is said, Today if ye will hear His voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
But with whom was He grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
And to whom sware He that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. (see James 2:14-26)

Hebrews 12:5-11
And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaks unto you as unto children, My son, despise not the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked (corrected) of him: (see John 16:8-13)
For whom the Lord loves he chastens, and scourges every son whom he receives.
If ye endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chastens not?
But if you be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but He for our profit, that we might be partakers of His holiness.
Now no chastening for the present seems to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. (see also: 1 Corinthians 11:26-32)

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Romans 8:13,14
For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do mortify (put to death) the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

John 8:34 (Companion verse to Romans 5:17 thru Romans 6:19)
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever commits sin is the servant of sin.

1 John 5:16
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

*** It's entirely possible for a "brother" to sin unto death and we should not pray for that... this is what Paul when he turned someone over to satan for the destruction of their flesh - he washed his hands of them and ceased to pray for them and the hope here is that they will reap of the corruption they have sown and come to themselves and realize they must return unto the Lord.

Warnings to CONTINUE in our Relationship with the Lord

Romans 11:13-22
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
For if the first fruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, were graffed in among them, and with them partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bear not the root, but the root thee.
Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou stand by faith. Be not high minded, but fear:
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

*Notice it says “IF you continue in His goodness”… very, very strong evidence that OSAS is not true as it is being taught in the end times church... greatly contributing to great falling away

*Companion scripture is John 8:31-32 - If you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed; and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free..

1 Timothy 4:16
Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Colossians 1:21-23
And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven.

*IF we continue in the faith… and be not moved away from the hope of the Gospel

*The Father says where there is no vision, the people perish (Proverbs 29:18) the “hope of the Gospel” is the mind of Christ, seeing things from Jesus' perspective which is the wisdom from God that comes from above instead of following the wisdom from below which is earthly, sensual, and devilish (James 3:15)

Revelation 3:5
He that overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 3:5
He that overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Some modern day preachers flat out deny this verse as though Jesus lied, or was mis-informed or something. Clearly this does not fit in to their doctrine so they have to ignore it or explain it away somehow.

Revelation 2:11
He that overcomes shall not be hurt of the second death.

Overcome = walking in the Spirit = allowing the Holy Spirit to live in us. James 4:7,8 - Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands sinners and purify your hearts you that are double minded.

Revelation 20:15
Whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So what grading system is in place for one too lose their salvation?

I hear "willfully" used all the time. But when you sin it is always willfully.

I then hear repetitive sin being the one that kicks you out? So if I mix my sin up a lot and be sure not to repeat the same ones too often, am I OK?

I sin, how much? I don't really know if its too much. What level? Depends on who I ask!!!

By you placing all of these misunderstood criteria and levels of salvation repellent sin, you actually minimize the fact that ALL SIN IS EVIL!!! (yours included) You take the magnificence of His Sacrifice and essentially trample it underfoot, that it wasn't good enough, or complete enough for me. It took the death of the Messiah to resolve the sin issue. But make no mistake it has been resolved. Thank God!

I can copy and paste a lot of scripture that support my view point, but even the unsaved can copy and paste! It really is an issue of the heart. My God has told me I am sealed, never to be forsaken, for that I am eternally grateful!

Dino246 · Apr 15, 2017

valiant said:

Do you happen to know a decent source of info on these early manuscripts? Your knowledge is broader than mine on the subject.

preacher4truth · Apr 15, 2017

know1 said:

Oh, that proves your conspiracy theory!!!!

Calm down son. It is actually you who does not want to hear the truth.

OK, I'll explain it.

Judgment and condemnation are two different words, having two different meanings, and, in this case, two differing subjects and contexts. Please learn 2 Timothy 2:15 and more about your Bible before you meld two passages together that are differing topics. Arguing over versions is the least of your worries when you make amateur mistakes as above and present false conclusions laden with error. Thank you.

preacher4truth · Apr 15, 2017

limey410 said:

So what grading system is in place for one too lose their salvation?

I hear "willfully" used all the time. But when you sin it is always willfully.

I then hear repetitive sin being the one that kicks you out? So if I mix my sin up a lot and be sure not to repeat the same ones too often, am I OK?

I sin, how much? I don't really know if its too much. What level? Depends on who I ask!!!

By you placing all of these misunderstood criteria and levels of salvation repellent sin, you actually minimize the fact that ALL SIN IS EVIL!!! (yours included) You take the magnificence of His Sacrifice and essentially trample it underfoot, that it wasn't good enough, or complete enough for me. It took the death of the Messiah to resolve the sin issue. But make no mistake it has been resolved. Thank God!

I can copy and paste a lot of scripture that support my view point, but even the unsaved can copy and paste! It really is an issue of the heart. My God has told me I am sealed, never to be forsaken, for that I am eternally grateful!

BAM! BINGO!!! DING! DING! DING, WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!!

(PLUS IT WAS FUNNY, LOL!)

Blain · Apr 15, 2017

limey410 said:

So what grading system is in place for one too lose their salvation?

I hear "willfully" used all the time. But when you sin it is always willfully.

I then hear repetitive sin being the one that kicks you out? So if I mix my sin up a lot and be sure not to repeat the same ones too often, am I OK?

I sin, how much? I don't really know if its too much. What level? Depends on who I ask!!!

By you placing all of these misunderstood criteria and levels of salvation repellent sin, you actually minimize the fact that ALL SIN IS EVIL!!! (yours included) You take the magnificence of His Sacrifice and essentially trample it underfoot, that it wasn't good enough, or complete enough for me. It took the death of the Messiah to resolve the sin issue. But make no mistake it has been resolved. Thank God!

I can copy and paste a lot of scripture that support my view point, but even the unsaved can copy and paste! It really is an issue of the heart. My God has told me I am sealed, never to be forsaken, for that I am eternally grateful!

Wow... it's like you just blocked the illogical and then sucker punched with biblical logic getting a one hit k.o.

wsblind · Apr 15, 2017

John146 said:

I want to respond before the Bible correctors do their thing.

There is condemnation to them who are in Christ. Notice, the context is condemnation coming upon those who are IN CHRIST JESUS. Condemnation can come upon believers when we walk after the flesh and not after the Spirit. Remember, Condemnation does not always mean eternal condemnation. Context will clear things up. There is temporal condemnation in this life and at the Judgment Seat of Christ where the believer will face judgment. Temporal condemnation does nothing concerning your standing in Christ. The foundation of Christ cannot be shaken. Example:

Romans 14
22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Almost the entire chapter deals with dealing with weaker brethren and how the more spiritual brethren are to put preferences aside in order not to offend a weaker brother in Christ. Notice in verse 23, this condemnation is compared to sin, not eternal punishment in hell. Another good example of temporal condemnation can be found in 1 Corinthians 11 and the Lord's supper.

I agree with you.

Your phraseology is going to throw a lot of folks off because your KJVO. But I have read enough of your doctrine to know what your saying.

valiant · Apr 15, 2017

Roughsoul1991 said:

They were people who were 'nearly there' falling away from their nominal belief.

Roughsoul1991 · Apr 15, 2017

valiant said:

Okay what happens when we have faith in Christ? Are we earning grace or being given grace. Isnts a gift given to someone?

Roughsoul1991 · Apr 15, 2017

valiant said:

Keep dancing around truth. Please explain what falling away from nominal belief is? And lets see if that holds up with what scripture says. Please post and compare what your saying to the scripture.

MattforJesus · Apr 15, 2017

There is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,for they have the Spirit of Christ.

But many are called but few are chosen.

Which we will know them by their fruits.

Love not the world,or the things in the world,and if a person does they are not of the Father,and an enemy of God.

If a person has money to help the poor and needy,and they do not do it,but concerned with their wants,Paul said,they have erred from the faith,James said,they do not have faith,and John said,the love of God does not dwell in them.

Many are called but few are chosen,which happens on earth.

God said He wants all people to come to repentance,come to the acknowledging of the truth,and be saved,and the Spirit,and bride,say,Come,and anybody that wants salvation can have it.

The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world,although it did not happen until the future,the saints have salvation in the beginning,although it came when the Lamb was slain,and for those who chose that salvation,for God's kingdom is love.

PeterJens · Apr 15, 2017

know1 said:

Is it possible for a child of God to come into condemnation?
Some might jokingly say, 'Yes, on CC'. And that would be true, but does God ever condemn those who are in Jesus?
One of the scriptures that would come into question obviously would be Romans 8:1, which I see many using.
The King James writes it like this.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

But there are other versions that leave out the latter half and write it like this.

(ASV) There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.

The funny thing about this is that most of the old text found, about 95%, agree with the KJB, and the other 5%, agree with the ASV.
Many translation of today leave out the latter half claiming that the older and more reliable text don't have it in there. The older part is true, but as for the more reliable text, that I call into question.
Have any of you looked at a Catholic bible lately? I know some of you are Catholic, and I have nothing against the people who claim to be Catholic. I just have a thing or two against the church and its doctrines, which I believe made it so that they could have power/influence over the masses. That's why they outlawed it for anyone to have a bible in the early church history.
Anyway, if you have, you would see that it too has the same verse without the latter half.
What does that have to do with the older and more reliable text?
They are Catholic texts, that the early church manipulated by attempting to erase that which was written in the codex Sinaiticus and Vaticanus. And yes, you can still see the old writing they erased on the parchment.
Those who wrote the KJB had these same text available to review, only for Spurgeon to call them corrupt.
The reason why it is important is because, with the text removed, it leads Christians to believe that they can do anything without coming into condemnation, and that they are automatically forgiven of every sins they commit.
But with the latter half in place, it would let those who are in Christ Jesus, or to those who are born again, know that they can indeed come into condemnation if they fail to walk after the Spirit and choose to walk after the flesh.
That would mean they cannot do anything they want to do without consequences, and that everything they do is not automatically forgiven and covered under the blood of Jesus without repentance.
God forbid that we should preach repentance to the church, or the body of Christ.
There are many more verses in the bible that deal with this subject, but for now, what are some of your thoughts?
Can we, the body of Christ, come into condemnation or not?

If you read the passage Paul is saying condemnation is for those who walk by the flesh,
but none if you walk by the Spirit. I can imagine they summarised this for those not very
bright.

limey410 · Apr 15, 2017

Roughsoul1991 said:

It is faith in the finished work of Jesus on the cross, that he died to forgive all sin. The gift is the Holy Spirit that resurrects us and gives us eternal life. We can only receive that gift because God cannot live in us simultaneously with sin, when we have faith in the finished work of Jesus, that sin is washed away.
It is because of God's grace that all of that could occur, because we didn't deserve it, God was still gracious enough to do it. Even while we were still sinners. Filthy rags etc etc.

PeterJens · Apr 15, 2017

Loose faith loose it all. Why should God lie? No belief no promise given.

Sully · Apr 15, 2017

limey410 said:

Wolves only know...

limey410 · Apr 15, 2017

Sully said:

Its the sins that they don't have a hard time staying away from.

Roughsoul1991 · Apr 15, 2017

limey410 said:

Do you read the scripture, verses what your saying? Is sin always willful? No we have sin and dont know it, and we sin knowing we are going against God.

Your are correct to say God judges the heart. We are warned about the dangers of apostasy. You ask how much sin. This is a ignorant question because your trying to turn our belief into a works salvation. Which is always the same tactic. Turning faith into works, turning the responsibility of man to remain faithful into God will do everything for you.

Can you prove these scriptures are not to believers?

Deliberately sinning of a believer only is a warning that the believer if not corrected could lead to apostasy. Notice this is why we dont know how much rebellion can turn a believers heart to the denial of faith. We are only told its possible and warnings to help correct, rebuke and help fellow believers to persevere and remain in faith.

We see believers fall away all the time but we do not see the hearts so we are to constantly act as if they can turn back to faith. Even though God knows the heart and God knows if they will or not. He is all seeing and knowing. A person doesnt commit apostasy in a few days. It will take time, trials, tribulations, false doctrines, deliberate sin, and free will.

We are eternally secured for who remain faithful. This is all throughout scripture. You can deny it but it wont go away. Every promise we read are for those who are faithful.

Your seal is the Spirit and since we are in Hebrews what does hebrews 6:4 say about someone who has shared in the Holy Spirit. The seal is a mark which involved in a earnest agreement which involves 2 parties not one.

Ephesians 1:12-14King James Version (KJV)

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Is there ever any condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus?

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