Is there ONLY Grace or are we seeing what we want to see?

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Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,430
0
#61
followjesus;2651091 . like theres no repentance said:
This stuff above isn't even remotely close to what the truth is in what is being said.

Here is another one about the common "mis-representations" of what some call hyper-grace. Again this was from JGIG's post used by permission.

Is Eternal Security Conditional or Unconditional?


Why I am Hyper-Grace: Answering Five Common Objections

Is Hyper-Grace “dangerous” or “imbalanced”?

Author: Jeremy White/Thursday, August 21, 2014/Categories: Jeremy White, Top Picks


Introduction:

In recent times, a label has surfaced regarding what some view as a “dangerous” or “imbalanced” teaching of the grace of God. “Hyper-Grace” is now a term being used to suggest that there are some folks (such as myself) who “take God’s grace too far” and in so doing either ignore or minimize other significant teachings of the Bible.

What follows is an attempt to address a few of the most common “warnings” some have offered regarding those of us who make much of the finished work of Christ.
Objection #1: The Hyper-Grace Gospel is Unbiblical

For starters, you may be shocked to discover that “hyper-grace” is really the only adequate description for grace in the first place, according to the Bible. For example, when Paul wrote in Romans 5:20 that “…where sin increased, grace increased all the more” he was literally referring to God’s grace as “hyper.”

The Greek term for the phrase “increased all the more” (NIV) is huper-perisseuo which literally means “super-abounded.” Hyper is simply a transliteration of the prefix “huper” in Greek and means “above and beyond” in scope or quality. The term “perisseuo” refers to that which is “in far excess of what might be expected, superfluous or gratuitous.”

So in Paul’s description of God’s amazing grace, he is literally saying that because of the abundance of sin in this world, God’s grace has super-abounded in order to rescue us from sin! Paul literally describes God’s grace as HYPER in this passage. It is super-abundant and unfathomably plentiful and powerful. In fact, a few verses later Paul would state that the very reason sin is no longer our master is because we are no longer under law, but under this hyper-abounding grace (Rom. 6:14)!

If this is what one means by “hyper-grace,” then count me in as one of the “grace-heretics!” It is a label that was applied to both Paul and Jesus by the Pharisees of their day, so I am more than happy to wear it in ours. As the late scholar D. Martin Lloyd-Jones famously pointed out (andthis is my paraphrase), "If people do not sometimes misunderstand and falsely accuse you of being soft-on-sin or against God’s law, you are not preaching the real gospel!"

Objection #2: Hyper-Grace Preachers are Soft on Sin

This is a common one, of course. The idea here is that because of our high esteem of the finished work of Christ and our insistence upon keeping our eyes fixated on Jesus as Author and Finisher of our faith (Heb. 12:2), we are either afraid to preach against sin or do not take sin seriously enough.

Far from being “soft on sin” – we who preach grace are extremely big on Jesus. Any gospel worthy of the hyper-grace label is a gospel which points all fingers toward Jesus rather than judgmentally pointing them at those He came to save.

There are definitely many contexts in which it is appropriate to talk about sin, warn about sin and preach against sin. I do this routinely in my preaching ministry, as do my friends who are also labeled as hyper-grace preachers. Sin is bad. It is ugly. It brings death to everything it touches. It grieves God. It makes us miserable. It comes with a variety of consequences.

No legitimate grace-preacher that I am aware of minimizes the reality that sin is evil, wrong, bad, unproductive and unfitting for a new creation in Christ. What we DO focus on, however, is the Answer to sin, which is Jesus – and the fact that His grace alone is precisely what delivers us from its penalty (death), its power (enslavement) and eventually even its very presence (when we live in the fullness of His heavenly kingdom one day).

I talk about sin all the time, but not as a means of manipulating, judging or condemning people. I talk about sin so as to help people understand both their daily and eternal need for Jesus as Savior and Lord. We hyper-grace preachers are simply standing with Paul on the promise that it is the grace of God which “teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, and to live soberly, righteously and godly in the present age…” (Titus 2:11-13).

Paul taught that the power of sin is the law (1 Cor. 15:56). If a person wants to ensure that they will remain in slavery to life-dominating sin and addiction, one simple way to do that is to live under a law-based mentality. A grace-saturated life, however, frees us from the grip of sin’s mastery over us. Far from being soft on sin, we take sin very seriously. So seriously that we are pointing people unapologetically to the only Source of rescue from it! That Source is not trying harder to be a good person, culturally-espoused self-help tactics or pop-psychology.

That Source is Jesus Christ and the grace He alone offers.
Objection #3: Hyper-Grace Preachers Don’t Believe in Repentance

Not only do we believe in repentance, but we seek to understand and teach it thoroughly and accurately. In the New Testament, “to repent” is a translation of the Greek verb “metanoeo” meaning “to change one’s mind or perspective.” Obviously, when we receive Christ, we have repented in the genuine sense of the term – changing our minds about our need of a Savior and receiving Christ.

Before Christ, we lived as self-sufficiently as possible, thinking that God would probably grade on a curve and accept us at least partly on the basis of our own best efforts and self-generated goodness. When we came to understand our spiritual bankruptcy and our desperate need for Christ’s forgiveness and new life, we repented (had a change of perspective) and received Christ by trusting in Him alone to rescue us.

Beyond this initial experience of “getting saved” (as we often call it), repentance is a daily lifestyle in which an ongoing “renewal of the mind” process is taking place within us. As we grow in faith and in our understanding of God through His Word and our union with His Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 6:17), we begin to replace old thinking with new thinking and false thinking with true thinking. This renewal of the mind (Rom. 12:1-3) is an integral part of the transformative process of the Spirit’s work in our lives. This is the essence of a lifestyle of repentance – taking false thoughts captive, making them obedient to (in conformity with) Christ (2 Cor. 10:5).

Paul affirmed in no uncertain terms that God’s kindness (His expressed grace toward us) is what leads to repentance (Rom. 2:4). Far from being anti-repentance, hyper-grace theology affirms repentance and the ongoing renewal of the mind as an integral part of what it means to follow Jesus under His New Covenant.

Objection #4: Hyper-Grace Preachers Are Against Confession of Sin

This is one of the most common misrepresentations of hyper-grace theology. The Biblical term “to confess” simply means “to speak the same thing as” or “to agree with.” We teach that confession is important because we should yield our minds to agreement with God about everything He reveals – including, but not limited to, sin.

What we often also teach (and this is where the rub is with some people) is that confession is not about triggering any transaction between us and God that would issue forth more forgiveness, as though God were dispensing forgiveness in various doses based upon our confessions. Forgiveness of sin is something that was provided objectively ONE time by ONE act of grace through ONE Savior who shed His blood on the cross for us 2000 years ago. As the book of Hebrews repeatedly emphasizes, He is the “once for all” sacrifice for sin.

Confession of sin then, is about humility and walking in agreement with God – not about getting more forgiveness from Him. Some will suggest that God’s forgiveness is dispensed using a “two-tiered” approach. On one level, they say, God has forgiven our sins judicially and objectively through the cross. On the second tier, however, we need to confess our sins in order to receive “relational” or“experiential” forgiveness in order to maintain close fellowship with God.

This two-tiered approach is nowhere taught in the New Testament, and has only been popularized because of two basic levels of rationale. The first is based upon a misinterpretation of two passages in the New Testament, both of which have been clearly explained in books and sermons by a host of solid gospel teachers. These two passages are Matthew 6:12 (where Jesus appears to be commanding His followers to ask for God’s forgiveness) and 1 John 1:9 (which seems to link forgiveness to confession of sin).

In my book “The Gospel Uncut: Learning to Rest in the Grace of God” I deal with these passages quite clearly, as do other authors such as Bob George, Andrew Farley, Ralph Harris, Paul Ellis, Cathy Hildebrand and Andrew Nelson. I encourage you to investigate these writings for yourself in order to understand the context in which these passages were intended to be understood.

The bottom-line is this. We hyper-grace preachers DO value confession of sin. We also practice confession of sin in our own lives. However, we understand confession to be about agreeing with God concerning the foolishness of our sin rather than begging for forgiveness based upon a humanly-invented two-tiered approach to somehow "maintaining close fellowship" with Him.

Our fellowship with God was purchased unconditionally and irreversibly by Jesus at the cross. Once we receive that fellowship by simple faith in Christ, it is our eternal possession regardless of our recent performance or track-record. As I’ve written in my book, The Gospel Uncut:

"The way I now approach confession is to simply agree with God about the foolishness of my sin. I admit to Him that my sin hurts me as well as others and that it fails to bring glory to His Name. Often I am sorrowful over the foolishness of my actions. The Apostle Paul wrote that there is a “godly sorrow that brings repentance” (2 Cor. 10:7). When I know I have sinned, I humbly admit that my sinful behavior is out of step with my new nature and identity in Him, and I ask Him to help me rest in His completed work. Now here comes the best part! After agreeing with God about my sin, I begin thanking Him for the fact that this sinful act was already forgiven at the cross. Understanding these realities has literally transformed my practice of confession, changing the experience from a guilt-ridden begging session into a dynamic, worshipful encounter in which my conscious mind (and behavior) is realigned with the grace and truth of Jesus.

So yes! By all means confess your sin to God! Agree with Him about sin and everything else He has revealed. But don’t think of confession as a means of obtaining something that Jesus Christ died “once for all” to secure for you. Remember that confession is about humility and the ongoing renewal of the mind process – and never about getting something from God that is already yours in abundance through the finished work of Christ. If you are a believer in Christ, you are NEVER out of fellowship with God. Fellowship is an identity issue, meaning that you now share "all things in common" with God as a joint-heir with Christ (Rom. 8:17)! This never has been and never will be based upon your behavioral performance and is not something that you must confess sin in order to have reinstated! Because of Christ, you are always clean and God is always close!

Objection #5: Hyper-Grace Preachers are Against God’s Law

Some take this claim so far as to suggest that we even want to throw out or ignore the Old Testament. Wow! What wild imaginations these accusers have! The truth is that we are by no means antinomian (against the law of God), nor do we disbelieve or avoid teaching the Old Testament. Most of us actually esteem the power and purpose of God’s law so highly that we understand grace to be the only way of escape from its impossibly stringent demands.

Paul shared in Romans 3 and elsewhere that God’s purposes for the law were two-fold: 1) to stop our self-righteous excuses, minimizations and justifications of our sin and 2) to reveal our desperate need of a Savior by grace through faith. The entire thrust of Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount was to bury His very self-righteous audience under the weight of one inescapable reality: “Unless your righteousness surpasses that of the world’s most stringent law-keepers (the Pharisees and teachers of the law) you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matt.5:20).

That Jesus came to “fulfill” the Law (Matt. 5:17) means that He came to keep its demands perfectly because He knew that we couldn’t and wouldn’t. He fulfilled the stringent demands of the Law on our behalf as our Substitute so that His record of perfection could be credited to our spiritual account when we received Him by grace through faith. He did what you and I couldn’t and wouldn’t, and the Sermon on the Mount is a damning indictment of anyone who thinks they can measure up to God’s standards on their own effort.

And have you heard of this “cheap grace” idea? Sometimes the term is ripped off and redefined from Bonhoeffer’s vocabulary to insinuate that the hyper-grace movement has cheapened the grace of God by making it “too easy” for people to attain. After all, we live in a world where there’s no such thing as a free lunch, right? We certainly don't believe or teach that grace is cheap. It cost Jesus His life! But we DO agree with the New Testament that His grace is FREE to those who receive it freely by faith.

The truth of the matter is that hyper-grace teachers are not guilty of promoting cheap grace at all. Rather, our critics are often guilty of promoting cheap Law! Far from being anti-law, WE are the ones who esteem God's Law so highly as to conclude that there is no escape from its condemnation apart from faith in Christ alone! The Law is an all-or-nothing proposition. To stumble in just one aspect of keeping it is the equivalent of breaking all of it (James 2:10). The Law is a ministry of death and condemnation (2 Cor. 3:7-11). The Law is not the bad guy, however. It simply points out who the bad guys are (the world, the flesh and the devil)! The Law is holy and pure and designed to show us what sin is (Rom.7:7).

But living under Law cannot save, change or transform a single heart – only grace can! And this is why we are so adamant about never mixing a law-based mentality with a grace-based mentality toward spiritual life or growth under God’s New Covenant. The New Testament repeatedly affirms that our salvation and sanctification are either completely by law or completely by grace, but cannot be a result of mixing the two.

Conclusion:

With all of that said, the idea of trying to somehow “balance grace” with anything is ludicrous according to both Scripture and plain reason. Grace, by definition, is radically IMBALANCED in our favor! If it were not, it would cease to be grace on that very basis! The term “hyper-grace” is far from insulting! It is in fact the ONLY kind of grace taught, supportedand promoted in the Bible.

God understands that His grace is open to the possibility of abuse by those who might misunderstand it. He understands that people may take His grace for granted or even at times misrepresent it as a license to sin. Paul addressed those concerns very clearly, as did Jesus and the other New Testament writers.

However, the fact that grace is open to misinterpretation and the possibility of abuse does not give us license to water it down, explain it away or cheapen its glory by adding a single measure of law into it as an attempt to stay "balanced." There is nothing balanced whatsoever about the grace of God! We rejoice in that! We celebrate that! We proclaim that without apology!

May God reveal His hyper-grace more clearly to you in the days ahead! Feel free to chime in with your thoughts below.
(For a more exhaustive treatment of this critical subject, check out the book "The Hyper-Grace Gospel" by my friend Paul Ellis )


Why I am Hyper-Grace: Answering Five Common Objections
 
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John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,794
3,573
113
#62
how bout these ones lol how do they not apply..

matthew 7:21-27"“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’


“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash


if the evildoers were prophesying in his name, driving demons out in His name, miracles in His name....id say they believed in His name right? whats the difference here? one group DID , the other Group Heard and did not do....hang on ill send you guys more to tell me why were all saved no matter if we do what were told, and btw made fully able to do through the atonement...1 sec
Kingdom of Heaven doctrine, earthly kingdom through the Davidic covenant where Christ will reign as King. That's been put on hold because of Israel's rejection of their Messiah. When the fullness of the Gentiles be come in(Romans 11), the Kingdom of Heaven doctrine will be back in play at the 2nd Advent of Christ.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,794
3,573
113
#63
the true Christian lol. How does the Christ define a "true Christian" read john 14-15 and that may explain what a true Christian is and how they are identified. ill definitely take Jesus word over joseph princes doctrine any day. truth is found in Jesus words. cant see any Christian arguing what Jesus Himself said, but I'm no ones Judge. I just trust Jesus like you are all saying you do. I trust His words as well as everything He did and does daily. bless you and greetings also.


anything that makes a person think Jesus doesn't Know how to define what a Christian is should reconsider where the wisdom came from in that. ill take Jesus definition anyday on any subject, thanks for adding tho.
There is no Christians until the death of the testator, the beginning of the new testament.
 
Jun 1, 2016
5,032
121
0
#64
This stuff above isn't even remotely close to what the truth is in what is being said.

Here is another one about the common "mis-representations" of what some call hyper-grace. Again this was from JGIG's post used by permission.

Is Eternal Security Conditional or Unconditional?


Why I am Hyper-Grace: Answering Five Common Objections

Is Hyper-Grace “dangerous” or “imbalanced”?

Author: Jeremy White/Thursday, August 21, 2014/Categories: Jeremy White, Top Picks


Introduction:

In recent times, a label has surfaced regarding what some view as a “dangerous” or “imbalanced” teaching of the grace of God. “Hyper-Grace” is now a term being used to suggest that there are some folks (such as myself) who “take God’s grace too far” and in so doing either ignore or minimize other significant teachings of the Bible.

What follows is an attempt to address a few of the most common “warnings” some have offered regarding those of us who make much of the finished work of Christ.
Objection #1: The Hyper-Grace Gospel is Unbiblical

For starters, you may be shocked to discover that “hyper-grace” is really the only adequate description for grace in the first place, according to the Bible. For example, when Paul wrote in Romans 5:20 that “…where sin increased, grace increased all the more” he was literally referring to God’s grace as “hyper.”

The Greek term for the phrase “increased all the more” (NIV) is huper-perisseuo which literally means “super-abounded.” Hyper is simply a transliteration of the prefix “huper” in Greek and means “above and beyond” in scope or quality. The term “perisseuo” refers to that which is “in far excess of what might be expected, superfluous or gratuitous.”

So in Paul’s description of God’s amazing grace, he is literally saying that because of the abundance of sin in this world, God’s grace has super-abounded in order to rescue us from sin! Paul literally describes God’s grace as HYPER in this passage. It is super-abundant and unfathomably plentiful and powerful. In fact, a few verses later Paul would state that the very reason sin is no longer our master is because we are no longer under law, but under this hyper-abounding grace (Rom. 6:14)!

If this is what one means by “hyper-grace,” then count me in as one of the “grace-heretics!” It is a label that was applied to both Paul and Jesus by the Pharisees of their day, so I am more than happy to wear it in ours. As the late scholar D. Martin Lloyd-Jones famously pointed out (andthis is my paraphrase), "If people do not sometimes misunderstand and falsely accuse you of being soft-on-sin or against God’s law, you are not preaching the real gospel!"

Objection #2: Hyper-Grace Preachers are Soft on Sin

This is a common one, of course. The idea here is that because of our high esteem of the finished work of Christ and our insistence upon keeping our eyes fixated on Jesus as Author and Finisher of our faith (Heb. 12:2), we are either afraid to preach against sin or do not take sin seriously enough.

Far from being “soft on sin” – we who preach grace are extremely big on Jesus. Any gospel worthy of the hyper-grace label is a gospel which points all fingers toward Jesus rather than judgmentally pointing them at those He came to save.

There are definitely many contexts in which it is appropriate to talk about sin, warn about sin and preach against sin. I do this routinely in my preaching ministry, as do my friends who are also labeled as hyper-grace preachers. Sin is bad. It is ugly. It brings death to everything it touches. It grieves God. It makes us miserable. It comes with a variety of consequences.

No legitimate grace-preacher that I am aware of minimizes the reality that sin is evil, wrong, bad, unproductive and unfitting for a new creation in Christ. What we DO focus on, however, is the Answer to sin, which is Jesus – and the fact that His grace alone is precisely what delivers us from its penalty (death), its power (enslavement) and eventually even its very presence (when we live in the fullness of His heavenly kingdom one day).

I talk about sin all the time, but not as a means of manipulating, judging or condemning people. I talk about sin so as to help people understand both their daily and eternal need for Jesus as Savior and Lord. We hyper-grace preachers are simply standing with Paul on the promise that it is the grace of God which “teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, and to live soberly, righteously and godly in the present age…” (Titus 2:11-13).

Paul taught that the power of sin is the law (1 Cor. 15:56). If a person wants to ensure that they will remain in slavery to life-dominating sin and addiction, one simple way to do that is to live under a law-based mentality. A grace-saturated life, however, frees us from the grip of sin’s mastery over us. Far from being soft on sin, we take sin very seriously. So seriously that we are pointing people unapologetically to the only Source of rescue from it! That Source is not trying harder to be a good person, culturally-espoused self-help tactics or pop-psychology.

That Source is Jesus Christ and the grace He alone offers.
Objection #3: Hyper-Grace Preachers Don’t Believe in Repentance

Not only do we believe in repentance, but we seek to understand and teach it thoroughly and accurately. In the New Testament, “to repent” is a translation of the Greek verb “metanoeo” meaning “to change one’s mind or perspective.” Obviously, when we receive Christ, we have repented in the genuine sense of the term – changing our minds about our need of a Savior and receiving Christ.

Before Christ, we lived as self-sufficiently as possible, thinking that God would probably grade on a curve and accept us at least partly on the basis of our own best efforts and self-generated goodness. When we came to understand our spiritual bankruptcy and our desperate need for Christ’s forgiveness and new life, we repented (had a change of perspective) and received Christ by trusting in Him alone to rescue us.

Beyond this initial experience of “getting saved” (as we often call it), repentance is a daily lifestyle in which an ongoing “renewal of the mind” process is taking place within us. As we grow in faith and in our understanding of God through His Word and our union with His Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 6:17), we begin to replace old thinking with new thinking and false thinking with true thinking. This renewal of the mind (Rom. 12:1-3) is an integral part of the transformative process of the Spirit’s work in our lives. This is the essence of a lifestyle of repentance – taking false thoughts captive, making them obedient to (in conformity with) Christ (2 Cor. 10:5).

Paul affirmed in no uncertain terms that God’s kindness (His expressed grace toward us) is what leads to repentance (Rom. 2:4). Far from being anti-repentance, hyper-grace theology affirms repentance and the ongoing renewal of the mind as an integral part of what it means to follow Jesus under His New Covenant.

Objection #4: Hyper-Grace Preachers Are Against Confession of Sin

This is one of the most common misrepresentations of hyper-grace theology. The Biblical term “to confess” simply means “to speak the same thing as” or “to agree with.” We teach that confession is important because we should yield our minds to agreement with God about everything He reveals – including, but not limited to, sin.

What we often also teach (and this is where the rub is with some people) is that confession is not about triggering any transaction between us and God that would issue forth more forgiveness, as though God were dispensing forgiveness in various doses based upon our confessions. Forgiveness of sin is something that was provided objectively ONE time by ONE act of grace through ONE Savior who shed His blood on the cross for us 2000 years ago. As the book of Hebrews repeatedly emphasizes, He is the “once for all” sacrifice for sin.

Confession of sin then, is about humility and walking in agreement with God – not about getting more forgiveness from Him. Some will suggest that God’s forgiveness is dispensed using a “two-tiered” approach. On one level, they say, God has forgiven our sins judicially and objectively through the cross. On the second tier, however, we need to confess our sins in order to receive “relational” or“experiential” forgiveness in order to maintain close fellowship with God.

This two-tiered approach is nowhere taught in the New Testament, and has only been popularized because of two basic levels of rationale. The first is based upon a misinterpretation of two passages in the New Testament, both of which have been clearly explained in books and sermons by a host of solid gospel teachers. These two passages are Matthew 6:12 (where Jesus appears to be commanding His followers to ask for God’s forgiveness) and 1 John 1:9 (which seems to link forgiveness to confession of sin).

In my book “The Gospel Uncut: Learning to Rest in the Grace of God” I deal with these passages quite clearly, as do other authors such as Bob George, Andrew Farley, Ralph Harris, Paul Ellis, Cathy Hildebrand and Andrew Nelson. I encourage you to investigate these writings for yourself in order to understand the context in which these passages were intended to be understood.

The bottom-line is this. We hyper-grace preachers DO value confession of sin. We also practice confession of sin in our own lives. However, we understand confession to be about agreeing with God concerning the foolishness of our sin rather than begging for forgiveness based upon a humanly-invented two-tiered approach to somehow "maintaining close fellowship" with Him.

Our fellowship with God was purchased unconditionally and irreversibly by Jesus at the cross. Once we receive that fellowship by simple faith in Christ, it is our eternal possession regardless of our recent performance or track-record. As I’ve written in my book, The Gospel Uncut:

"The way I now approach confession is to simply agree with God about the foolishness of my sin. I admit to Him that my sin hurts me as well as others and that it fails to bring glory to His Name. Often I am sorrowful over the foolishness of my actions. The Apostle Paul wrote that there is a “godly sorrow that brings repentance” (2 Cor. 10:7). When I know I have sinned, I humbly admit that my sinful behavior is out of step with my new nature and identity in Him, and I ask Him to help me rest in His completed work. Now here comes the best part! After agreeing with God about my sin, I begin thanking Him for the fact that this sinful act was already forgiven at the cross. Understanding these realities has literally transformed my practice of confession, changing the experience from a guilt-ridden begging session into a dynamic, worshipful encounter in which my conscious mind (and behavior) is realigned with the grace and truth of Jesus.

So yes! By all means confess your sin to God! Agree with Him about sin and everything else He has revealed. But don’t think of confession as a means of obtaining something that Jesus Christ died “once for all” to secure for you. Remember that confession is about humility and the ongoing renewal of the mind process – and never about getting something from God that is already yours in abundance through the finished work of Christ. If you are a believer in Christ, you are NEVER out of fellowship with God. Fellowship is an identity issue, meaning that you now share "all things in common" with God as a joint-heir with Christ (Rom. 8:17)! This never has been and never will be based upon your behavioral performance and is not something that you must confess sin in order to have reinstated! Because of Christ, you are always clean and God is always close!

Objection #5: Hyper-Grace Preachers are Against God’s Law

Some take this claim so far as to suggest that we even want to throw out or ignore the Old Testament. Wow! What wild imaginations these accusers have! The truth is that we are by no means antinomian (against the law of God), nor do we disbelieve or avoid teaching the Old Testament. Most of us actually esteem the power and purpose of God’s law so highly that we understand grace to be the only way of escape from its impossibly stringent demands.

Paul shared in Romans 3 and elsewhere that God’s purposes for the law were two-fold: 1) to stop our self-righteous excuses, minimizations and justifications of our sin and 2) to reveal our desperate need of a Savior by grace through faith. The entire thrust of Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount was to bury His very self-righteous audience under the weight of one inescapable reality: “Unless your righteousness surpasses that of the world’s most stringent law-keepers (the Pharisees and teachers of the law) you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matt.5:20).


Why I am Hyper-Grace: Answering Five Common Objections
haha


ha bruce commm on! I actually took time to watch and also read joseph prince. He does infact omit all of those things, you guys honestly the grace grace crowd flat out lie a lot, might wanna look into repentance.

confession of sin is it necessary bruce? can a believer "sin" if they believe even if they are sinning? do our actions determine anything regarding salvation bruce? does obedience to Jesus commands matter for salvation bruce? all of those things are taught by the gog. I actually stomached a lot of it so I could see for myself. the whole doctrine is built on saying I'm righteous, I'm blessed, I can never do wrong, I'm saved, I don't need to commit to Jesus. it omits the sermon on the mount and ANY thing that says there is a requirement on the believers part. its false false false. but again

you guys are masters of omission and twisting. and there is no cracking the grace revolution for me lol. your free to believe how you want to believe. I know what I have read and sat on a plane and watched for hours. I see jp omit everything that is commitment. Jesus is ALL about full commitment. don't be on here painting me as a liar, that's the wrong thing to do given the spirit. anyone who even takes time to look back a month or two will see the s=discussions ive had with you and that right there will show that your entire comment is false.


Jesus is this Luke 9 "23Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me. 24For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will save it. 25What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit their very self? 26Whoever is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.


He repeats this same message of full and total commitment to HIM. does that sound to you like a effortless, non committal grace only doctrine?

Jesus is 100 percent about commiting our lives to HIM. laying ourselves down, and accepting and following His teachings"
that's all He teaches. paul is no savior, He was telling you that you are new and able. that's all there is to it. Jesus is the only name available for salvation. the only life in the bible for the dead is Jesus and His words.

your dropping lower than I thought now but, bless ya still.

I don't really use the term hyper grace btw, unless I'm talking to someone who does. Grace is true, it is mistaught by the new gog doctrine, ( gog is my name for it lol) fits the bill.

and really you are the one linking yourself to this misteaching not me, I'm against the false doctrine, you seem like a good guy, I got no issue with you, accept now you've made a desperate attempt to make it like I'm lying, but I forgive ya, its a command and easy to do at this point for me so ;)

lets call peace so were not disrupting the forum. again like ive tried to imply several times since yesterday. I purposely avoid your threads and most of the grace grace threads. I was enjoying it earlier when a few bros were addin a scripture or 3 n adding , why do you all come here is it just to argue and dispute?

Ill again stick with Jesus, and make another effort for a peaceful existence with you by avoiding the conflict, we tried, theres no medium. bless ya again and let peace exist in you by possibly not commenting the gog stuff on every thread I post. I like the thing at the bottom btw about the lord wanting us to look through his eyes....
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#65
didn't say there were bones broken, I said there were nails driven through the bones in his hands and feet. do you know how many bones are in the feet? they didn't break your correct. they were pierced tho by our nails
You are adding to Scripture.
 
Jun 1, 2016
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#66
You are sorely mistaken, as the grace of God is always with us to the end. What kind of doctrine are you preaching anyway? Because its not the one of Scripture. You seem to say a lot without saying anything. The true believer in Christ is always in the process of being transformed into the image of Christ. It is a life-long process. If we walk in Him and are led by the Spirit of God, then we will sow to the Spirit and produce fruit. God's grace is always operating in the lives of those who trust in Him.

naw I'm not mistaken at all, mostly I gave you JESUS words. I'm not the one who has to say they don't apply. my doctrine is follow Jesus. Grace is true, its the doctrine as its taught. Jesus is this

luke 9 "23Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me. 24For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will save it. 25What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit their very self? 26Whoever is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.


does this seem to you like something a person doesn't commit their lives to and its all just a free gift?

the grace provided forgiveness of all sins beforehand, removed the curse through Jesus suffering and death, resurrection. paul never was teaching a new gospel or a new way to salvation, it comes through Jesus. and your right Grace is there. its like I said earlier

forgive and you will be forgiven. that's not law, that's nowhere in the law of moses. that's Jesus. all of His teachings are grace like that. forgiving is grace, turning the other cheek=grace. He gave grace, Gave His life, his spirit to us, made us new and forgiven that's the gift. its up to us to give our lives back by simply believing His words and following.

I am in no way mistaken, but again, you guys are free to believe the "gospel of grace" I'm okay wioth that, ill stick with the one who Died for me and told me to follow His commands into freedom where now I stand and walk with Him every day. if I stumble wow....I repent and move on. make sure I have no issues of unforgiveness wow what a demanding lord I have, looking to control me wow wow...Jesus yoke is good news compared to the Law, freedom is only found in Jesus. there is a rule and He is well worth Giving our lives to, as He himself said, but I'm sure you've already seen His words. so yeah I'm good to go, not mistaken even a tiny bit, because I trust Jesus
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
4,025
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#67
Love this Hymn and it talks about the wonderful grace of Jesus

1. Wonderful grace of Jesus,
Greater than all my sin;
How shall my tongue describe it,
Where shall its praise begin?
Taking away my burden,
Setting my spirit free;
For the wonderful grace of Jesus reaches me.

Refrain:
Wonderful the matchless grace of Jesus,
Deeper than the mighty rolling sea;
Higher than the mountain, sparkling like a fountain,
All-sufficient grace for even me!
Broader than the scope of my transgressions,
Greater far than all my sin and shame;
Oh, magnify the precious Name of Jesus,
Praise His Name!

2. Wonderful grace of Jesus,
Reaching to all the lost,
By it I have been pardoned,
Saved to the uttermost;
Chains have been torn asunder,
Giving me liberty;
For the wonderful grace of Jesus reaches me.

3. Wonderful grace of Jesus,
Reaching the most defiled,
By its transforming power,
Making him God’s dear child,
Purchasing peace and heaven
For all eternity—
And the wonderful grace of Jesus reaches me.
Wonderful Grace of Jesus - Hymnary.org

 
Jun 1, 2016
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#68
You are adding to Scripture.

ahhhh........ wasn't really quoting scripture magenta was I? and do you understand anatomy? its not possible that the nails didn't go through His bones. either the heel bone wich was most common in those days for a crucified victim. and actualy YOU added that I had said they were broken, I didn't, I said the nails went through them lol is this what you feel as if you can nail me with hahaha. God bless you. peace and good will.

might wanna pull up a quote of me saying his bones were broken if that's your accusation :) you added to what I said. you imagined it :)) no hard feeling tho.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,973
26,718
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#69
ahhhh........ wasn't really quoting scripture magenta was I? and do you understand anatomy? its not possible that the nails didn't go through His bones. either the heel bone wich was most common in those days for a crucified victim. and actualy YOU added that I had said they were broken, I didn't, I said the nails went through them lol is this what you feel as if you can nail me with hahaha. God bless you. peace and good will.

might wanna pull up a quote of me saying his bones were broken if that's your accusation :) you added to what I said. you imagined it :)) no hard feeling tho.
Jason, you are insisting the nails went through His bones, and that is adding to Scripture no matter how hard you try to wiggle out of it with your false accusations.
 
Jun 1, 2016
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#70
Love this Hymn and it talks about the wonderful grace of Jesus

1. Wonderful grace of Jesus,
Greater than all my sin;
How shall my tongue describe it,
Where shall its praise begin?
Taking away my burden,
Setting my spirit free;
For the wonderful grace of Jesus reaches me.

Refrain:
Wonderful the matchless grace of Jesus,
Deeper than the mighty rolling sea;
Higher than the mountain, sparkling like a fountain,
All-sufficient grace for even me!
Broader than the scope of my transgressions,
Greater far than all my sin and shame;
Oh, magnify the precious Name of Jesus,
Praise His Name!

2. Wonderful grace of Jesus,
Reaching to all the lost,
By it I have been pardoned,
Saved to the uttermost;
Chains have been torn asunder,
Giving me liberty;
For the wonderful grace of Jesus reaches me.

3. Wonderful grace of Jesus,
Reaching the most defiled,
By its transforming power,
Making him God’s dear child,
Purchasing peace and heaven
For all eternity—
And the wonderful grace of Jesus reaches me.
Wonderful Grace of Jesus - Hymnary.org


good stuff for sure, its wonderful the Grace He brought to us along with the TRUTH.


john 1:17 "For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ"

the truth is wwhat Jesus taught, it goes along with the grace, and in fact is teaching us to be graceful to others and moreso to God. good stuff that grace, wish it was understood and taught as Jesus presented it
 
Jun 1, 2016
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#71
Jason, you are insisting the nails went through His bones, and that is adding to Scripture no matter how hard you try to wiggle out of it with your false accusations.

haha no magenta do this, go do research on a crucified victim in jesus day and see where the nails went. that's just another accusation that has zero basis, find where I said His bones were broken, and youll HAVE ME....wait wait....behind you,,,theres a Mormon....lets get him!!!!

just kiddn, peace magenta, you have no ground to stand on here. in the first place, I wasn't quoting anything from Isaiah 53, I was ranting about what Jesus did for us because of Gods grace. and in the second place, I did not say what you are saying I said...wait!!! wait!! a catholic behind you, gimme a torch lets lynch em!!!

hahaha ;) just playin around. its all good if you feel " I'm misquoting scripture" on that you can hold to that false doctrine :p
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,973
26,718
113
#72
ahhhh........ wasn't really quoting scripture magenta was I?
Didn't say you were. In fact, I quoted Scripture.

and actualy YOU added that I had said they were broken,
Nope, that is a false accusation. I would appreciate if you retracted it.

might wanna pull up a quote of me saying his bones were broken if that's your accusation :) you added to what I said. you imagined it :)) no hard feeling tho.
You need to pull up this non existent quote. I said no such thing, so it is in fact you adding to what I said as well as adding to what Scripture said. You might want to get a handle on that. Just a friendly suggestion.
 
Jun 1, 2016
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#73
Didn't say you were. In fact, I quoted Scripture.


Nope, that is a false accusation. I would appreciate if you retracted it.

You need to pull up this non existent quote. I said no such thing, so it is in fact you adding to what I said as well as adding to what Scripture said. You might want to get a handle on that. Just a friendly suggestion.
magenta lol, your exact accusation was that " I was misquoting scripture" lol common sista cooommmooon....its all good whats your goal here honestly? if your a gospel of grace doctrine believer is this appropriate conduct? or does it not matter how you behave? you and anyone can see that I wasn't quoting scripture lol commmoooonnnnn .....theres a Mormon and catholic, saying to obey Jesus !!! round up the posse partner, ill grab the rope !!!

hahaha I cracked myself up there. are we done here tho??? or was I quoting a death threat there with that joke?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,794
3,573
113
#74
Acts 20:24, "But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God."

Romans 16:25-26, "Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:"

2 Timothy 2:8, "Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:"

Romans 2:16, "In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."

Ephesians 3:2, "If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:"

Paul was given an abundance of revelations by Jesus Christ that had never been known since the world began. God used Paul as a chosen vessel to reveal to the world the full implications of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ and the doctrine for those who would believe the gospel and be saved. By following Paul, we follow Jesus Christ and what He revealed to him specifically for the Church Age.
 
Jun 1, 2016
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#75
Didn't say you were. In fact, I quoted Scripture.


Nope, that is a false accusation. I would appreciate if you retracted it.

You need to pull up this non existent quote. I said no such thing, so it is in fact you adding to what I said as well as adding to what Scripture said. You might want to get a handle on that. Just a friendly suggestion.

lol I don't pull up quotes "your adding to scripture" was the first and second my bad. "your adding to scripture" was the quote 65 and 69, and I wasn't quoting scripture magents, and have absolutely no need to "wiggle" out of anything with you, or your group. are you having a terrible day or something?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,973
26,718
113
#76
lol I don't pull up quotes "your adding to scripture" was the first and second my bad. "your adding to scripture" was the quote 65 and 69, and I wasn't quoting scripture magents, and have absolutely no need to "wiggle" out of anything with you, or your group. are you having a terrible day or something?
Saying/insisting the nails went through His (Jesus') bones is adding to Scripture. That seems simple enough. Are you having trouble comprehending simple things? That happens to me sometimes. For instance, I might need to double check, which is left and which is right? Even after checking, I might pick the wrong one. It happens. I am getting old. LOL. Gosh, whom are you lumping me in with now? My group? Who might they be?
 
Jun 1, 2016
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#77
Acts 20:24, "But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God."

Romans 16:25-26, "Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:"

2 Timothy 2:8, "Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:"

Romans 2:16, "In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."

Ephesians 3:2, "If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:"

Paul was given an abundance of revelations by Jesus Christ that had never been known since the world began. God used Paul as a chosen vessel to reveal to the world the full implications of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ and the doctrine for those who would believe the gospel and be saved. By following Paul, we follow Jesus Christ and what He revealed to him specifically for the Church Age.
so yeah I gues those few cancel out the 99 others spoken by Jesus ??? for the 12ooth time. Grace its allllll grace. Grace is not taught as God teaches it. the gospel of grace, omits Jesus because Jesus treaches full commitment on the part of the believer. I'm not gonna continue with the scriptures there throughout the thred. full commitment, Love god with ALL our hearts and soul, mind and strength, follow Jesus commands, all of it is full commitment, laying down our self in order to follow Jesus. its all grace, feee gift of new life, free gift of righteousness that is found in the truth of Jesus.do you guys feel compelled to come against anyone saying what Jesus said? Like anyone who quotes 14-16 john or the million other scriptures that say obey?

that's because of the doctrine that convinces people theres nothing to do, it goes so far that it says Jesus words aren't for Christians. because why? because Jesus says something totally different than the gog doctrine. if a doctrine is saying " Jesus words aren't for a Christian" do you not see the issue there? I do.

I will follow the truth, because of the Grace. Ill trust Jesus words on all things, it proves itself ulike any other doctrine. BUT for maybe the 5th time, you are all free to believe as you wish, I'm no ones authority, judge, anything else. I do Jesus, I follow Jesus, I trust Jesus, I believe Jesus. becauswe God made is possible through Grace. and also His teachings continue Grace.

supply all we need for godly living as the intention of grace is actually for.

titus 2:11-12 "For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. it teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age...


so whats the purpose of Grace then? to teach us to say NO to sin, AND to LIVE upright Godly lives.....

that's found in Jesus. its amazing how many "Christians" have an issue with what Jesus says repeatedly. I follow Jesus, I do not worship grace, I'm sorry but no, I accepted the grace along woith the truth that is in Jesus, that we are all commanded to walk in
 
Jun 1, 2016
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#78
Saying/insisting the nails went through His (Jesus') bones is adding to Scripture. That seems simple enough. Are you having trouble comprehending simple things? That happens to me sometimes. For instance, I might need to double check, which is left and which is right? Even after checking, I might pick the wrong one. It happens. I am getting old. LOL. Gosh, whom are you lumping me in with now? My group? Who might they be?
ughh I submit magenta you got me, god bless ya.
 
Jun 1, 2016
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#79
Saying/insisting the nails went through His (Jesus') bones is adding to Scripture. That seems simple enough. Are you having trouble comprehending simple things? That happens to me sometimes. For instance, I might need to double check, which is left and which is right? Even after checking, I might pick the wrong one. It happens. I am getting old. LOL. Gosh, whom are you lumping me in with now? My group? Who might they be?
oim not lumping you my bad, God loves you dearly and without measure that's for sure the truth that we both know. peace and much good blessing to you. apology if I offended ya,
 
Jun 1, 2016
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#80
Boy I think I'm learning this place, saying to obey Jesus puts you in a good place to learn reflexes and avoid the firey darts, even if you take a few in the buttocks. haha I think I may have forgotten my own name.....:p