Is there such a thing as an atheist?

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nl

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2011
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...here's a question: Does God tell you things in your dream that are new to you? Are dreams places of revelation with an upper case 'R'? Can information be imparted to you in dreams that is totally revelatory to mankind. Can you acquire knowledge that the next Christian might not know, or is God only going to tell you things that you already know, and that can readily be found in scripture?
Those things could happen to someone. I make no claim that they have happened to me.

I do believe these renderings of Solomon's Dream and Prayer for Wisdom - 1 Kings 3:5–15; 2 Chronicles 1:7–13. We seem to be responsible for our thoughts and responses even when we are sleeping and dreaming. Solomon did well to ask for wisdom and understanding. Solomon started well as king but he did not finish well.
 
J

Jda016

Guest
Personal, internal experiences that others cannot observe do not provide substantiation of faith claims, so I can’t use Paul Washer’s experience to help buttress a belief I don’t share. The claim of Matthew and Luke is that God is like a shepherd who cares more for the missing members of his flock than he does for those who are not lost. God, Jesus tells us, is like the shepherd who will not cease looking for his lost sheep until he has found it, and there will be more rejoicing in Heaven over finding this one lost soul than for the hundred that are not lost (Matt 18:12 ff, and Luke 15:3 ff). Yet it is not surprising, I am frequently told, that God has not shown himself to me because I don’t believe in him. The true shepherd does not care what the sheep thinks of him, he only wants to retrieve his lost sheep.

If there is no God, then it doesn’t matter whether I believe or not, but it will still matter to believers who think God is not reaching out because we atheists don’t believe he exists; but even when I did believe and sought the Spirit to provide lasting confirmation (ie. I was looking to get hit by Washer’s logging truck), still there was no intervention. I can either accept Believers accusations that the fault is mine, or I can relent and say, ‘Well, maybe I was wrong to believe.’ If there is a God I accept that he can make me believe, I can also accept that he can choose to reveal himself, but I don’t accept that scripture counts as that revelation. Scripture is not the substantiation of belief in God, it is the claim that requires substanti.
Washer was making a statement to Christians, that they couldn't think themselves saved if they had no desire to follow or obey God's words. The idea of being hit my a semi-truck is to show the magnitude of change in their lives once they have encountered the Living God.

For instance, many years ago, a street pastor named David Wilkerson preached to gangs. One gang member in particular, Nikki Cruz, got saved. This produced such a radical (semi-truck hitting) change in his life that he continues as an evangelist today. Nikki Cruz was also no ordinary gang member. His parents were heavily into witchcraft and did unspeakable things and he himself had murdered several people as well as commit many other horrendous crimes. But he was washed and cleansed by the blood of Jesus and his life was forever altered. That is, of course, just one "semi-truck hitting" testimony of which there are thousands.

Side note: we have evidence, but it is not 100% proven I don't think, that the leader of Jesus' Roman crucifixion squad, later turned his life over to Christ and believed Jesus to be the Son of God. This is quite radical, because crucifixion is all these Roman "death squads" ever did. Their sole purpose in life was to crucify people. They did not fight or do anything else, they were literally executioners of the worst kind. It is a powerful testimony to me of the uniqueness of Jesus Christ. Even the centurion testifies, "When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, "Surely he was the Son of God!"(Matthew 27:54).

you said,
"Personal, internal experiences that others cannot observe do not provide substantiation of faith claims"
I think these internal experiences do produce outwards observable claims that do provide substantiation of faith claims.

I know the skeptic can simply say that some people can make powerful choices to change. However, I think it is remarkable there there are SO MANY testimonies like Nikki Cruz that produced such a monumental change all in the name of Jesus Christ. I think too of the man who wrote the song "Amazing Grace" (I forget his name) but he used to be a slave owner and was a terrible master, but Christ changed Him and that is why he wrote the words, "Amazing Grace, How sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me, I once was lost, but now am found, was blind, but now I see." I think the key for many of these testimonies is how blown away people are by the level of forgiveness they receive from God, that it produces such a lasting and permanent change.
 
J

Jda016

Guest
In regards to dreams, visions, and prophecies, I do believe that God gives personal "revelation" to people that another Christian may not know. This usually regards something pertaining to the individual's life. Again, there are many testimonies of God telling People things before they happen. That is a lot of what the Bible is predicated upon. The Edomites, Babylonians, Assysrians, Hitties, and others were all prophesied to be completely and utterly destroyed. These prophecies often were uttered when these nations were in great power and yet they became true.

There actually was debate as to whether the Hitties even existed which threw the Bible into question, until archeology discovered Hitite ruins.

Moses actually prophesied that the Israel would be captured and that they would be scattered throughout the earth. This happened with the Babylonian captivity and the Roman destruction in 70 AD.

"Deuteronomy 28:64:


Moses, writing ca. 1400 B.C., predicts the scattering of the Jews “from one end of the earth to the other.” This was fulfilled 721 BC when the Northern Kingdom of Israel was captured by the Assyrians, in 586 BC when the Southern Kingdom of Judea was conquered by the Babylonians, and in 70 AD when Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans. And to this day, there are still Jews who are scattered “among all peoples.”


Deuteronomy 29:24-29:


Moses predicts the Babylon captivity of Israel, which occurred in 607-587 B.C." (Prophetic Reliability of the Bible)
 

nl

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2011
933
22
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Back to science...


  • Ptolemy's astronomical worldview was dominant in science for centuries. This was a geocentric view where heavenly bodies revolved around the earth. Ptolemy's dates were AD 90 - AD 168. This had also been the view of earlier Babylonian astronomers. Into the Middle Ages, Ptolemy's text on astronomy was the authoritative text on astronomy.


  • Later, Nicholas Copernicus (1473-1543) helped the bring things forward with his heliocentric view that the heavenly bodies of the solar system revolved around the sun.

Incidentally, the Bible never taught that the earth was the center of the universe. This is unlike the scientific text of Ptolemy whose astronomical views prevailed for centuries.

Science was missing information in earlier centuries. It's safe to say that science is missing information now.
 
J

ji

Guest
I started this life as a Christian and have given Christianity serious study since that time. What sections of this discussion do you think I am missing?
Things that need to applied with your heart,its not scientific..its Spiritual...
But i would like to ask you what made you go away from Christianity?
 
T

TodayJunior

Guest
Even Dawkins said that he was 99.99% sure that there is no God.....but doesn't that, by definition, make him agnostic, because he can't be 100% sure?
"The God Delusion" by Dawkins page 51. Cycel told me this earlier in the discussion. I quoted him in post 686, I believe.
No, Dawkins never says this. He has a scale of 1-7, 1 being absolutely certain that God exists and 7 being absolutely certain that God doesn't exist. Dawkins says he's a 6.

Just wanted to clear up the misrepresentation.
 
J

Jda016

Guest
No, Dawkins never says this. He has a scale of 1-7, 1 being absolutely certain that God exists and 7 being absolutely certain that God doesn't exist. Dawkins says he's a 6.

Just wanted to clear up the misrepresentation.
6. De facto atheist. Very low probability, but short of zero. "I don't know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there."

so, basically, he is 99.99% sure there is no God.....
 
P

paulsfam4

Guest
atheism is a religion! they believe in man and science. humanism... a world without God
 
Dec 25, 2009
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When Christ was born in Bethlehem, Roman King Herod ordered the slaughter of all infants there aged two and younger. Joseph and Mary and Jesus fled to Egypt. These events also were prophesied in the Bible many centuries earlier. See Micah 5:2, Matthew 2:16-18 fulfillment of Jeremiah 31:15, Hosea 11:1.
The historicity of this slaughter is disputed.

Jeremiah 31 speaks quite a bit about the new covenant that is supposedly coming but Jesus, and the action of his followers, do not align with the prophecies made in it. Namely Jeremiah 31:33-34, which claims that none of the Jewish people would be able to deny God or the covenant because the truth will be written in their hearts. However, we don't see all of the Jewish people accepting the covenant that Jesus has brought forth according to the New Testament stories.

When I did a full reading of the bible I was at a loss because I did not feel that the predictions made in the old testament were met with the events in the new. Later I began to look up what prophecies that Christians claim that Jesus fulfilled in the tales told about him in the New Testament. One of my biggest problems with all of it was it read more like fan-fiction than prophecy. I did not feel like many of the cited passages in the Old Testament seemed like prophecies, and many Jewish scholars do not accept that they were messianic prophecies either. It seemed more like writers trying to make stories that were continued from Old Testament tales while also sharing several parallels in the manner of storytelling and themes.

I do not accept either the Old Testament or the New Testament writings as historical documents. I do think it is interesting to compare the books of the bible to see the cultural shifts that were happening in those time periods which can be traced through the themes and writing styles within the stories. It would be impossible for me to come to the conclusion that anything in the bible is true based solely on referencing the bible, and I think this is the case with many atheists. This is why I believe that citing supposedly fulfilled prophecies is a lost cause unless it has support from sources.
 
Feb 7, 2014
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The historicity of this slaughter is disputed.

Jeremiah 31 speaks quite a bit about the new covenant that is supposedly coming but Jesus, and the action of his followers, do not align with the prophecies made in it. Namely Jeremiah 31:33-34, which claims that none of the Jewish people would be able to deny God or the covenant because the truth will be written in their hearts. However, we don't see all of the Jewish people accepting the covenant that Jesus has brought forth according to the New Testament stories.

When I did a full reading of the bible I was at a loss because I did not feel that the predictions made in the old testament were met with the events in the new. Later I began to look up what prophecies that Christians claim that Jesus fulfilled in the tales told about him in the New Testament. One of my biggest problems with all of it was it read more like fan-fiction than prophecy. I did not feel like many of the cited passages in the Old Testament seemed like prophecies, and many Jewish scholars do not accept that they were messianic prophecies either. It seemed more like writers trying to make stories that were continued from Old Testament tales while also sharing several parallels in the manner of storytelling and themes.

I do not accept either the Old Testament or the New Testament writings as historical documents. I do think it is interesting to compare the books of the bible to see the cultural shifts that were happening in those time periods which can be traced through the themes and writing styles within the stories. It would be impossible for me to come to the conclusion that anything in the bible is true based solely on referencing the bible, and I think this is the case with many atheists. This is why I believe that citing supposedly fulfilled prophecies is a lost cause unless it has support from sources.
It depends on the understanding.
 
Dec 25, 2009
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I'm sure there are many ways that the passage can be interpreted and it might be possible to make it align in some way with Christianity, especially if someone says that some of the passages are referring to after Jesus' second coming. In any case, the fact that so many interpretations can be made would imply that the meaning of the texts aren't clear.
 
Feb 7, 2014
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I'm sure there are many ways that the passage can be interpreted and it might be possible to make it align in some way with Christianity, especially if someone says that some of the passages are referring to after Jesus' second coming. In any case, the fact that so many interpretations can be made would imply that the meaning of the texts aren't clear.
It is not clear because of their foundation. The bible states that we are to be of the same mind and judgment. If we cannot understand and get this simple foundation right, we will always have varying interpretations. The bible is made in such a way that will give all who read it what they are looking for, and thus from the same book you can have one that believes that there is a trinity and one that believes that there is no such thing. Because both views can be supported with scripture, it is vital that we have the foundation correct first.

If you do not read the bible from the perspective that all men will be saved, it will lead you through many a broad path.
 
Feb 7, 2014
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What is this foundation that you are referring to?
The same mind and judgment, that we all belong to the same source. If I die too, then I am no better than who I may consider the worst man on earth if he deserved his fate and I didn't.

No. You want to see God, then get rid of money and by it respect of persons. Men will begin to again love their neighbors as themselves.
 

nl

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2011
933
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The historicity of this slaughter is disputed.
Skepticism breeds a type of ignorance. Facts acknowledged by others are disputed and denied by the skeptic. Therefore, the skeptic knows less than others because facts acknowledged by others are disputed and denied by the skeptic.

Knowing less can be convenient because facts can be messy things. While facts are disputed, they can be ignored. Once facts are acknowledged, they often require a response.

Conscience is a response to available knowledge. Conscience = con + science = with knowledge. When we know less, our conscience has fewer requirements and chosen behaviors have fewer constraints.

Pharoah was drowning Hebrews boys when Moses was born. Moses was put into the river like the other boys but in the case of Moses, he was put into a floating basket on the river. From there, he was retrieved by Pharoah's daughter and received care in Pharoah's house from Pharaoh's daughter (Exodus 2). This was a remarkable Providence. Some will know this. Some will dispute it. This was an earlier "slaughter of the innocents" that happened 1500 years earlier at the time of the the birth of Moses rather than at the time of the birth of Jesus Christ.

A unique attribute of the slaughter at the time of Jesus Christ was that it had been prophesied.

‎Mt 2:16 Then when Herod saw that he had been tricked by the magi, he became very enraged, and sent and slew all the male children who were in Bethlehem and all its vicinity, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had determined from the magi. ‎17 Then what had been spoken through Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: ‎18 “A VOICE WAS HEARD IN RAMAH, WEEPING AND GREAT MOURNING, RACHEL WEEPING FOR HER CHILDREN; AND SHE REFUSED TO BE COMFORTED, BECAUSE THEY WERE NO MORE.”

The Bible contains two accounts of a slaughter of innocent baby boys. One happened around the birth of Moses and one happened around the birth of Jesus Christ. Read and weep could even be the response of some. Even now, some read of the sufferings and crucifixion of Jesus Christ and lament and mourn. Read and dispute could be the response of others. Freedom of choice in this matter is yours but freedom can be a messy thing because there are choices to make and a potential accountability to face for the choices made.

The sufferings of Jesus Christ on the cross are remembered by some in communion with others in the sacrament of the bread and the wine. The sufferings of Christ are unknown to some and disputed or ignored by others. Freedom of choice is yours in what you acknowledge and how you respond. But, there is a responsibility that goes along with such freedom if and when you are called to give an account of your use of such freedoms.

Prayer: Lord, have mercy.
 
Dec 25, 2009
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Pharoah was drowning Hebrews boys when Moses was born. Moses was put into the river like the other boys but in the case of Moses, he was put into a floating basket on the river. From there, he was retrieved by Pharoah's daughter and received care in Pharoah's house from Pharaoh's daughter (Exodus 2). This was a remarkable Providence. Some will know this. Some will dispute it. This was an earlier "slaughter of the innocents" that happened 1500 years earlier at the time of the the birth of Moses rather than at the time of the birth of Jesus Christ.
No historian at the time wrote about the "massacre of the innocents" that is talked about in the Gospel of Matthew. Not even Josephus, who wrote a lot about King Herod, mentioned the supposedly slaughter. I will be fair and say that the slaughter isn't an outrageous claim as killing a few infants may not have been such a big deal in that time.

A unique attribute of the slaughter at the time of Jesus Christ was that it had been prophesied.
Since there is no historical documentation of the massacre, it may very well be the case that it was an invention of the anonymous author of Gospel of Matthew in order to make parallels between Jesus and Moses.
 
Dec 9, 2013
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atheism is a religion! they believe in man and science. humanism... a world without God
Sorry to be nitpicky but you are wrong, "Atheism" itself is not and can not be a religion, it is the rejection of a belief or more broadly the rejection of a religious belief concerning a god.

"Atheists" or people that subscribe to atheism may form groups which adhere to common worldviews or philosophies such as secular humanism. You may interpret those groups as following a "religion" or behaving "religiously" but understand that just because one is an atheist does not mean that they follow these worldviews or philosophies.

An example is a theist who believes in a god yet may not be a christian or even associate with any major religion.
Would you say that Theism itself is a religion? If no then in same way Atheism is not a religion regardless if certain atheists form "religious groups".
 
Jan 18, 2014
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There are a couple of ponts to address here.

The same mind and judgment, that we all belong to the same source. If I die too, then I am no better than who I may consider the worst man on earth if he deserved his fate and I didn't.

No. You want to see God, then get rid of money and by it respect of persons. Men will begin to again love their neighbors as themselves.
This in itself is a fine example of truth being biased by belief. In so many parts, the writings of the bible are vague enough to allow for interpretation. It reminds me of the indian parable of the blind men and the elephant.

In various versions of the tale, a group of blind men (or men in the dark) touch an elephant to learn what it is like. Each one feels a different part, but only one part, such as the side or the tusk. They then compare notes and learn that they are in complete disagreement.
The stories differ primarily in how the elephant's body parts are described, how violent the conflict becomes and how (or if) the conflict among the men and their perspectives is resolved.
In some versions, they stop talking, start listening and collaborate to "see" the full elephant. When a sighted man walks by and sees the entire elephant all at once, they also learn they are blind. While one's subjective experience is true, it may not be the totality of truth. If the sighted man was deaf, he would not hear the elephant bellow.

Now this of course applies to scientific observations and theories also. But they make no claim of absoluteness and unlike the bible can be rewritten when called into question. I can't imagine, mostly due to revelations, that the same could be said for the bible ;)

Skepticism breeds a type of ignorance. Facts acknowledged by others are disputed and denied by the skeptic. Therefore, the skeptic knows less than others because facts acknowledged by others are disputed and denied by the skeptic.

Knowing less can be convenient because facts can be messy things. While facts are disputed, they can be ignored. Once facts are acknowledged, they often require a response.

Conscience is a response to available knowledge. Conscience = con + science = with knowledge. When we know less, our conscience has fewer requirements and chosen behaviors have fewer constraints.
Now this I thoroughly disagree with. You say the sceptic is the ignorant one. But I do not see how this be the case? Let me offer an analogy:

I blindfold you and take you to a room. I remove the blindfold allowing you see within the confines of the room. There is a single window and a door.

I say to you "Outside the window is a small garden which leads to a street with a yellow car parked on the road."

You look out of the window and see that what I have said is mostly true. You would call the car orange.

I say to you "Through that door is a red room with a fireplace at it's centre. Inside is the most useful of objects."

You attempt to open the door but it is locked. I say "The door will only be unlocked when you really need that object".

So. the mind of a person who had faith in me would accept my answer without question.

The logical believer would accept the testimony as probable having been exposed to an element which can be substantiated by looking out of the window.

The sceptic would accept the window observation but would not accept the next room statement until such time as it could be observed.

The latter is a scientific model. But like any good model, it is open to scrutiny through future observation. The former is true of any world religion including Christianity. So I argue to you, is not the wise man the one asks questions? The one who will follow but not do so blindly? As per my previous statement, there are people on this very site or are questioning and debating the meaning of the bible even if they do not question its authenticity. Does this not make them sceptics?

There is also a question of Facts Ignored while disputed. Well I argue that surely while a fact is in dispute, it is in fact, not a fact! We do not ignore these statements but any being of logic should question them being submitting them to fact. Now throughout antiquity, various religions have been unkind to people who question the established order and this continues to today.

The sufferings of Jesus Christ on the cross are remembered by some in communion with others in the sacrament of the bread and the wine.
Once again. I think you should look into the stories of Dionysus. Verified by tableture writings of the period, this is a story from Greek and Later Roman Pagen Mythology which tells an incredibly similar tale to the tale of the last supper yet were written 200 years prior to the birth of Christ. We could theorise:

That part of the tale emerged during the amalgamation of writings during the first conference of Nicea in order to amalgamate the roman Pagan belief system into the popular and notably militant Jewish belief in Jesus in order to bring peace to the roman empire.
or
Demons travelled back in time and fed these stories to the ancient greeks so could later be used to call the bible into dispute.
or
It is one heck of a coincidence!!

Please understand, atheism is not a religion or a choice. It is merely the realisation that statements offered by faith systems are non-reliable and the honesty to go looking for other answers as opposed to accepting blindly. Of course Christianity tries to establish a foundation of ignorance by saying that the pursuit of knowledge was the original sin. GENESIS-3. As a result some of our greatest thinkers in history were imprisoned, outcast or put to death for merely questioning the Words of the Bible. This immorality is a 'fact' often 'ignored' by those of the Christian Faith.

I offer once again that the Bible is not a reliable historical document. Therefore, for quoting it as evidence is nonsensical.
Personal internal experiences are also no form of evidence. As are testimonies with Christian (or any other religious) Bias. People embellish, modify and sometimes lie about events all the time. I have scoured the web for information on miracles and faith healing and have yet to find non-bias witness testimony or independent medical or scientific confirmation for any event.

Ladies and gentlemen.