Is there such a thing as an atheist?

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Sep 14, 2013
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Look, I'm genuinely sorry if I came off as flippant. Knee jerk responses is something I should maybe avoid in future.

I think we need to have a proper discussion. So please answer this for me.

Many people have said that if it wasn't for god then we'd all be going around raping and murdering each other. As an atheist I don't do that... So regardless of my belief, are you saying that I don't do those things because god instilled those basic morals in me anyway?

It's not a trap question or anything. Just think I need more clarification before I hastily post again.
 
Jun 30, 2011
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Heard this listening to Ravi Zacharias, as he quotes a Physics professor at Cambridge, turned Christian - Scientist will one day come to the mountain, sadly to find Theologians have been there for centuries

same guy also compared the right circumstances in the first pico-seconds as if hitting a 1 inch by 1 inch square, with a bullet from the other side of the universe
 
J

Jda016

Guest
Which does not negate the rightness of aligning with the truth nor the wrongness of not aligning with the truth.

If I say X is X and another person comments that X is X and X really is X then their bias is, in reality, justified.

A bias may or may not be justified. Your posts suggest to me that you possess an equally strong bias only against the information being presented not for it. So it's rather hypocritical of you to criticize their bias while ignoring your own.

Furthermore, I'd argue this entire line is a red herring to the discussion and the discussion would be more relevant if you did not make these kinds of posts at all.
Bravo!

I could not have said it better myself.

sincerely,

Jda016confirmation-bias
 

mustaphadrink

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2013
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Many people have said that if it wasn't for god then we'd all be going around raping and murdering each other. As an atheist I don't do that... So regardless of my belief, are you saying that I don't do those things because god instilled those basic morals in me anyway?
A good question which I will answer as I understand God. He created us in his image. That by the way is the reason we are different to animals as they were not created in his image. That means we have characteristics that animals don't have. We pray, animals don't. Animals eat other animals if they are hungry. We don't eat humans if we are hungry. We use heat to cook food. Animals don't. The only thing that I can think of that makes us worse than animals is that we kill our offspring in the womb, animals don't.

Being created in his image means that we all have the potential for his characteristics to govern our lives. What stops that happening is sin which in turn produces rebellion. Atheism is nothing more than rebellion against God's nature.

There are two attributes that have an affect on us. God's common grace and His personal grace. God's common grace applies to the atheist as well as the believer. For example, the rain falls on the farm whether the farmer is a christian or an atheist. If he exercised his personal grace, it would only fall on the christian farmer's farm. So common grace is not directed. It is given to all.

Personal grace is directed grace to particular people or persons as in if my child is sick and I pray for her healing and she is healed that is personal grace.

Add to that our conscience which is given by God to us for our benefit in particular and for mankind in general. And this is the rub with atheism. You say there is no God but the evidence is there in you. When you do that which is right, your conscience which God gave you is coming into play. To say that you have a conscience created out of nothing is to say the least poppycock. It had to come from somewhere. So your conscience is the God part of you. Nothing you can do about it as you are born with it.

When a man goes off the rails he is deadening his conscience through sin and rebellion. Often it is not a conscious act. It is something that is built over time and one day they snap and someone is dead.

Despite what the homosexuals and social revisionists say, a happy family i.e. married mum and dad, children, relations etc. are the most effective socialisers of children in society. They stand the best chance of doing well if that is what they are born into and brought up by. There are exceptions to the rule but they are exceptions not the rule.

As a teacher, I found that the children from broken homes were more trouble than children from intact families.

Another fact is that marriage as opposed to other forms of living together is the best tamer of man's emotions and animal instincts. When marriage breaks down and alternatives replace it is when society breaks down. I have just read a book which says that about 80% of teenagers who fall foul of the law come from a broken family.

The evidence then is indisputable. Do things God's way and you have a harmonious society. Do things your own way and you have a society that breaks down.

The other fact that we choose to ignore is that since we have decided we don't need God, we have created our own world of death, destruction, barbarity, carelessness, stress, depression, despair etc all of which are on the rise and in some cases, in epidemic proportions. For instance, there are more wars going on worldwide now than there were in all of the last century. need I say more.
 

nl

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2011
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...are you saying that I don't do those things because god instilled those basic morals in me anyway?
Theologically, the term used is "common grace".
+++
Common grace is a theological phrase which describes God’s bounty poured out on all men and women regardless of their faith or righteousness. In our present passage it describes God’s gifts of rain and grain, both of which come into the hands of the saved and the unsaved (Ps. 145:9; Matt. 5:45; Luke 6:35). We also see common grace in the Spirit’s restraint of sin in the world...Common grace also explains why unsaved people can be so pleasant and kind, sometimes even more gentle than members of God’s family. That is because God’s common grace curbs the devastating effects of sin in the world so it does not reach its fullest extent...

Source: Gangel, K. O. (1998). Acts (Vol. 5, pp. 240–241). Nashville, TN: Broadman & Holman Publishers. [Commentary on Acts 14:17]
+++
I have been near some traumatic events (forest fires, riots) where emergency services like police and fire get overwhelmed and some people are either evacuated from their homes by the authorities or choose to leave voluntarily like refugees. In situations like these, incidents of looting do increase because the police / law enforcement are not available to respond and can't be everywhere at once. Looting increases, I think, because the opportunity increases to get away with it without getting caught by the authorities or stopped by anyone else.

The fear of the Lord does help to restrain evil (Proverbs 16:16). However, many non-religious and nominally religious people have lived exemplary lives and given much in service to their communities.
 
J

Jda016

Guest
It seems though that even common grace begins to fall apart when you have a society that outlaws any notion of serving God, such as what Lenin and Stalin did.

Any form of government that outlaws any worship of God is going to have its roots in Athiesm.
 
Aug 25, 2013
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If someone claims to have had a dream or vision that contradicts the Bible, then it is to be rejected.
Then that would solve the problem, perhaps, but I suspect so long as people think they are getting messages from Heaven in their dreams then there is always a chance they will find a way to integrate it into their thinking.

Jda said:
This is what Joseph Smith did with the Latter Day Saints and is why it is a cult.
Indeed, if this is what Joseph Smith did then his actions prove my point; but I thought his message came not from dreams, but from golden tablets?

Oh, did you know that in a number of his proclamations Constantine the Great called Christianity a cult? And this was after he converted.

Jda said:
The Mormons also believe in something called "progressive revelation." In other words any "prophet" (which all presidents of the LDS are considered prophets) can make any claim that contradicts anything previously said and can be fully accepted.
Interesting. The Gnostics considered this a sign of spiritual maturity.

Jda said:
Christians do not have "progressive revelation" which means nothing new can be said that contradicts God's word.
What if they have a dream that they believe better informs God's word?
 
Sep 14, 2013
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A good question which I will answer as I understand God. He created us in his image. That by the way is the reason we are different to animals as they were not created in his image. That means we have characteristics that animals don't have. We pray, animals don't. Animals eat other animals if they are hungry. We don't eat humans if we are hungry. We use heat to cook food. Animals don't. The only thing that I can think of that makes us worse than animals is that we kill our offspring in the womb, animals don't.

Being created in his image means that we all have the potential for his characteristics to govern our lives. What stops that happening is sin which in turn produces rebellion. Atheism is nothing more than rebellion against God's nature.

There are two attributes that have an affect on us. God's common grace and His personal grace. God's common grace applies to the atheist as well as the believer. For example, the rain falls on the farm whether the farmer is a christian or an atheist. If he exercised his personal grace, it would only fall on the christian farmer's farm. So common grace is not directed. It is given to all.

Personal grace is directed grace to particular people or persons as in if my child is sick and I pray for her healing and she is healed that is personal grace.

Add to that our conscience which is given by God to us for our benefit in particular and for mankind in general. And this is the rub with atheism. You say there is no God but the evidence is there in you. When you do that which is right, your conscience which God gave you is coming into play. To say that you have a conscience created out of nothing is to say the least poppycock. It had to come from somewhere. So your conscience is the God part of you. Nothing you can do about it as you are born with it.

When a man goes off the rails he is deadening his conscience through sin and rebellion. Often it is not a conscious act. It is something that is built over time and one day they snap and someone is dead.

Despite what the homosexuals and social revisionists say, a happy family i.e. married mum and dad, children, relations etc. are the most effective socialisers of children in society. They stand the best chance of doing well if that is what they are born into and brought up by. There are exceptions to the rule but they are exceptions not the rule.

As a teacher, I found that the children from broken homes were more trouble than children from intact families.

Another fact is that marriage as opposed to other forms of living together is the best tamer of man's emotions and animal instincts. When marriage breaks down and alternatives replace it is when society breaks down. I have just read a book which says that about 80% of teenagers who fall foul of the law come from a broken family.

The evidence then is indisputable. Do things God's way and you have a harmonious society. Do things your own way and you have a society that breaks down.

The other fact that we choose to ignore is that since we have decided we don't need God, we have created our own world of death, destruction, barbarity, carelessness, stress, depression, despair etc all of which are on the rise and in some cases, in epidemic proportions. For instance, there are more wars going on worldwide now than there were in all of the last century. need I say more.
Do you think psychopaths are people with serious mental shortcomings or are they possessed by kind of demon?
 
J

Jda016

Guest
Then that would solve the problem, perhaps, but I suspect so long as people think they are getting messages from Heaven in their dreams then there is always a chance they will find a way to integrate it into their thinking.


Indeed, if this is what Joseph Smith did then his actions prove my point; but I thought his message came not from dreams, but from golden tablets?

Oh, did you know that in a number of his proclamations Constantine the Great called Christianity a cult? And this was after he converted.


Interesting. The Gnostics considered this a sign of spiritual maturity.


What if they have a dream that they believe better informs God's word?
Well, Jospeh Smith had a vision that lead him to the tablets (I kind of clumped dreams and visions together, sorry about that).
These tablets were supposedly written by Jews who somehow migrated to North Amercia around 600 B.C. (Just did a recent study about Mormonism).

I did not know about the Constantine quote claiming Christianity was a cult! That does not surprise me though, because Joseph Smith declared that every form of Christianity before him was an abomination to God and that he had only the right version.

Basically, Mormonism is a mixture of New Age and Christianity as Catholicism is a mixture between Paganism and Christianity.

It is interesting that Gnostics thought of "progressive revelation" as maturity. "Progressive revelation" is in a sense, relativism. Basically, whatever you now want to be the "right way" you just make up. There are ministers, today who are trying to incorporate this into Christianity with Universalism. Instead of holding to the absolute truth that Christ is the only way to Heaven, they want to say that all religions lead to God. Ironically this is an insult to all religions as each one claims exclusivity.

It sure would be terrible if something like "progressive revelation" was applied to government constitutions. At any moment someone could come along and take away your "inalienable rights." I suppose Hitler kind of did this with the Jews and Stalin did it with the Ukrainians.

I always think of relativism or progressive revelation is like standing on shifting sand. One moment you are standing tall and the next your sinking beneath it.
 
J

Jda016

Guest
Oh, Cycel, I think I forgot to answer your last question in regards to whether dreams or visions can give us clarity about God's word. I believe they can, yes. Dreams and visions that are of the Holy Spirit will always agree with the words of the Bible.
 
J

Jda016

Guest
Do you think psychopaths are people with serious mental shortcomings or are they possessed by kind of demon?
While I can not answer for Mustaphadrink, I can give you my opinion. (Which you may or may not want, I'm not sure) :D

but I believe a little of both. Jesus healed many people that were possessed by demons. Many of them had terrible seizures or other "fits." If there were brain scans back then, I imagine they would show something completely different before and after Jesus healed them of the demon.

Even though demons are spirits, they do have the ability to affect the physical body.

I also believe that there are people affected by demons and then there are people possessed by them. The possession case is far more severe and we rarely hear of any outside of horror movies in the West. However, if you go to a place like South Asia you will find stories of such possessions being quite common.
 
Aug 25, 2013
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Oh, Cycel, I think I forgot to answer your last question in regards to whether dreams or visions can give us clarity about God's word. I believe they can, yes. Dreams and visions that are of the Holy Spirit will always agree with the words of the Bible.
So if in a dream God provided you with information specific to some historical event mentioned in the Bible, but it was information beyond that which scripture provided, you would refuse to accept said information on the grounds that it could not be found in scripture?
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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Look, I'm genuinely sorry if I came off as flippant. Knee jerk responses is something I should maybe avoid in future.

I think we need to have a proper discussion. So please answer this for me.

Many people have said that if it wasn't for god then we'd all be going around raping and murdering each other. As an atheist I don't do that... So regardless of my belief, are you saying that I don't do those things because god instilled those basic morals in me anyway?

It's not a trap question or anything. Just think I need more clarification before I hastily post again.
I am glad to hear the love in your heart, and somehow it is in you, and I rejoice over that. Thank you
 
P

phil112

Guest
So if in a dream God provided you with information specific to some historical event mentioned in the Bible, but it was information beyond that which scripture provided, you would refuse to accept said information on the grounds that it could not be found in scripture?
You are postulating a non-event.
 
Jan 18, 2014
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Ok, here we go....

A good question which I will answer as I understand God. He created us in his image. That by the way is the reason we are different to animals as they were not created in his image. That means we have characteristics that animals don't have. We pray, animals don't. Animals eat other animals if they are hungry. We don't eat humans if we are hungry. We use heat to cook food. Animals don't. The only thing that I can think of that makes us worse than animals is that we kill our offspring in the womb, animals don't.
Humans don't eat humans if hungry? Exhibit A. Survival Canabalism. When the society reared human being reverts back to his or her earlier animal state. Add to that the historical gross inaccuracies made by early european and christian slavers that the people of africa or the native americans were animals or an inferior species which were to be in servitude to their own. http://www.churchsociety.org/crossway/documents/Cway_104_AfricanSlavery.pdf

Being created in his image means that we all have the potential for his characteristics to govern our lives. What stops that happening is sin which in turn produces rebellion. Atheism is nothing more than rebellion against God's nature.
atheism
Line breaks: athe|ism
Pronunciation: /ˈeɪθɪɪz(ə)m /
NOUN


[MASS NOUN]
Disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.


Origin


late 16th century: from French athéisme, from Greek atheos, from a- 'without' + theos 'god'.



There are two attributes that have an affect on us. God's common grace and His personal grace. God's common grace applies to the atheist as well as the believer. For example, the rain falls on the farm whether the farmer is a christian or an atheist. If he exercised his personal grace, it would only fall on the christian farmer's farm. So common grace is not directed. It is given to all.
once again confirmation bias. Making nature fit the storyline.

Personal grace is directed grace to particular people or persons as in if my child is sick and I pray for her healing and she is healed that is personal grace.
If Wises were Horses. Unfortunately it has been my findings with people of orthodox religious ilk that they will happily find every pleasant coincidence to be an act of God.As we know, this little self illusion can be blown out to all grandeur over the passage of time. In terms of praying for a sick child, I could see as a parent the want to pray as a last resort but there are still too many theist who rely on prayer over medicine and end up murdering their own children. Please look at this link: Revealed Religion is Killing Children


Add to that our conscience which is given by God to us for our benefit in particular and for mankind in general. And this is the rub with atheism. You say there is no God but the evidence is there in you. When you do that which is right, your conscience which God gave you is coming into play. To say that you have a conscience created out of nothing is to say the least poppycock. It had to come from somewhere. So your conscience is the God part of you. Nothing you can do about it as you are born with it.

When a man goes off the rails he is deadening his conscience through sin and rebellion. Often it is not a conscious act. It is something that is built over time and one day they snap and someone is dead.
I disagree. My moral judgement of right or wrong was developed over time by my parents and environment and my own personal experiences. This is true of every human I know. There is tangible evidence which is repeatable through observation. such studies could not be claimed for divine morality.

Bronfenbrenner, Urie. "The role of age, sex, class, and culture in studies of moral development." (1962): 3-17.

Despite what the homosexuals and social revisionists say, a happy family i.e. married mum and dad, children, relations etc. are the most effective socialisers of children in society. They stand the best chance of doing well if that is what they are born into and brought up by. There are exceptions to the rule but they are exceptions not the rule.

As a teacher, I found that the children from broken homes were more troubled than children from intact families.

Another fact is that marriage as opposed to other forms of living together is the best tamer of man's emotions and animal instincts. When marriage breaks down and alternatives replace it is when society breaks down. I have just read a book which says that about 80% of teenagers who fall foul of the law come from a broken family.
This, I will agree with you sir. i am a teacher also. However, a happy family does not have to be a Christian one, I know of more examples than I can count of children going off the rails who have over-religious parents who they cant talk to openly. In fact I was in school with 5 children of vicars who ALL went off the rails. Equally, I know children of parents who are civil partnered, or have one biological parent and another parent who has stepped in after a precious partner left or was asked to leave. Children of had working and loving single parents. So many I would say to negate these as exceptions. I firmly believe that having both parents can only be a good thing provided the parents are good people, if not, a bad family unit can do as much damage if not more by staying than a broken family. That figure is not stated if you consider that 54% of all families in america are broken:

Broken Homes in the United States Are at Alarming Level, Study Finds

As 76% of americans identify themselves as christians this should raise some eyebrows on here. Whereas only 6% of Americans are atheists.

The evidence then is indisputable. Do things God's way and you have a harmonious society. Do things your own way and you have a society that breaks down.
I seem to remember the Nazi's saying something similar...

The other fact that we choose to ignore is that since we have decided we don't need God, we have created our own world of death, destruction, barbarity, carelessness, stress, depression, despair etc all of which are on the rise and in some cases, in epidemic proportions. For instance, there are more wars going on worldwide now than there were in all of the last century. need I say more.
1898-1901 Boxer Rebellion
economic issues and the disputes between the Chinese and foreign missionaries in the wake of the Opium Wars (1839–1842 and 1856–1860). After the legalization of the propagation of Christianity in China around 1860, foreign missionaries were very active in Shandong. But none were more disruptive than the German Society of the Divine Word led by Johann Baptist von Anzer. This missionary order entered Shandong in the 1880s and was aggressive in its intervention in secular disputes and arrogant toward the Chinese. But it attracted converts by virtue of its power to offer protection and support, and the friction between the Christians and the local communities escalated quickly in many areas of Shandong and other parts of China, especially the north, leading to the Boxer Rebellion.
1899-1902 Boer War
The war came as a result of British restrictions which had been placed on the Northern expansion of the Boers in an effort to placate the native African population, who were at this time resisting any European expansion. The Boers resisted and defied British rule and continued their Northern expansion, and the power struggle evolved and progressed until serious hostilities erupted.
1904-1905 Russo-Japanese War
1) Russian ambitions in Asia. Russia wanted trading rights with China and sought bases in Korea and Manchuria.


2) The emergence of Japan as a Pacific power. While Japan had no problems being an imperial power themselves, they did have problems with European countries, such as Russia, being imperial powers in Asia. This is similar to the United States pursuing imperial, or at least imperial-like, policies in Central and South America under the Monroe Doctrine.


3) The need for Russia to unite its people. The Czarist government was under tremendous political pressure to reform and needed an outside threat to take the pressure off.


4) The Russian need for a warm water port.


1910-1920 Mexican Revolution
1912-1913 First and Second Balkan Wars
1914-1918 World War I
1915-1918 Armenian Genocide
1917 Russian Revolution
1918-1921 Russian Civil War
1919-1921 Irish War of Independence
1927-1937 Chinese Civil War
1933-1945 Holocaust
1935-1936 Second Italo-Abyssinian War (also known as the Second Italo-Ethiopian War or the Abyssinian War)
1936-1939 Spanish Civil War
1939-1945 World War II
1945-1990 Cold War
1946-1949 Chinese Civil War resumes
1946-1954 First Indochina War (also known as the French Indochina War)
1948 Israel War of Independence (also known as the Arab-Israeli War)
1950-1953 Korean War
1954-1962 French-Algerian War
1955-1972 First Sudanese Civil War
1956 Suez Crisis
1959 Cuban Revolution
1959-1973 Vietnam War
1967 Six-Day War
1979-1989 Soviet-Afghan War
1980-1988 Iran-Iraq War
1990-1991 Persian Gulf War
1991-1995 Third Balkan War
1994 Rwandan Genocide
Total for 20th Century = 31

I'm not going to fill this thread and list them all but look here:
Every battle in the Bible | Constantly Reforming
Total for Period of Old Testament = 88

Secondly the majority of these conflicts have to do with resources. Look at this Graph:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-oyO5TwZ72...E/HYQZ970NObo/s640/world-population-chart.jpg
You don't have to be a statistician to see the different in world populace, and as reources become scare, conflict will increase. This is the human animal in action.

....thats all for now. Sleepy time. Sorry for the long post all but do think on these points and read the articles.
 
Jan 18, 2014
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I also put it to you all. That, were Jesus to return to the world tomorrow, None of you would know who he was. If he told you, you would disbelieve him as just another eccentric preacher or worse a false prophet. He may well have been a simple man who's stories grew out of proportion.

I offer to you, the founder of Aikido, Morihei Ueshiba. This ittle article shows how a simple human being can attain almost mystical status as teaxhings are passed through the ages.

http://www.shobukan.dk/dokumenter/osensei.PDF
 

JesusLives

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2013
14,554
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Isn't god himself responsible for the death of nearly 3 million people in the bible alone?
I don't see it like this. If we humans had not sinned there would have never been a death on this earth. So how can we blame God for killings and death when God just gave one simple directive in the Garden of Eden - Do not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil or you will die. I see it as a human fault not Gods.
 

JesusLives

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2013
14,554
2,176
113
I also put it to you all. That, were Jesus to return to the world tomorrow, None of you would know who he was. If he told you, you would disbelieve him as just another eccentric preacher or worse a false prophet. He may well have been a simple man who's stories grew out of proportion.

I offer to you, the founder of Aikido, Morihei Ueshiba. This ittle article shows how a simple human being can attain almost mystical status as teaxhings are passed through the ages.

http://www.shobukan.dk/dokumenter/osensei.PDF
I have to disagree with you a bit on this one. Jesus only came as a quiet baby once when He comes again we are all going to know about it as the bible says as lightening shines from the east to the west so shall the coming of the Son of man be. He will come in the clouds and every eye will see Him even those that pierced Him. He will come with a shout, with the voice of the arch angel. Trumpets will be blowing and an earthquake will be shaking things up. So when Jesus comes again there is no way we are not going to know He is here. Some of us may not like that He has returned but there will be those who will say Low this is our God we have waited for Him and He will save us. It is a choice one has to make every day Yes or No.
 
J

Jda016

Guest
So if in a dream God provided you with information specific to some historical event mentioned in the Bible, but it was information beyond that which scripture provided, you would refuse to accept said information on the grounds that it could not be found in scripture?
I would be skeptical of it, however I wouldn't entirely discount it.

Dreams and visions generally are for the personal life of a Christian in terms of guidance and understanding.

Dreams and visions also may point to a future event. I think I mentioned this before, but there were prophecies of the fall of the USSR. Some people may have felt this in a dream or vision. The person shouldn't totally reject this, but pray about it instead.

So for instance, say someone had a vision in the 70's that the USSR was going to crumble. This dream may be God's way of getting people to pray for the fall to come soon.

God doesn't need our prayer to accomplish His Will, however He often desires that people pray for the things that He shows them.

there is a verse in Amos 3:7 that doesn't directly apply to dreams or visions, but it is interesting How God has chosen to reveal His plan.

"Surely the Sovereign LORD does nothing without revealing his plan to his servants the prophets."
 
J

Jda016

Guest
Hmmm apparently evolutionists believe in dreams and visions too...

"Seeking visions might seem light-years away from scientific inquiry. Yet the most creative paleontologists can be described as visionaries, and many respected scientists have described important theoretical breakthroughs that came to them as revelations while they slept or daydreamed." Adrienne Mayor, Fossil Legends of the First Americans, Princeton press, 2005, p. 329.

she went on to say:

"This hyperaware dream state is called 'lucid dreaming' or 'power dreaming' by neuropsychologists. Paleontologist who trust their dreams about the meaning of fossils are perhaps not so unlike Native American discoverers of fossils during vision quests. Certainly paleontology solving the mystery of stone creatures that will never be seen walking the earth-inspires dreams and theoretical narratives" (329).