Is there such a thing as eternal security?

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Gaming_Drummer

Guest
#1
Something I've been having trouble understanding recently is whether there is such a thing as eternal security. In other words, if salvation is permanent or not.

The thing that confuses me is that there are verses like Ephesians 2:8-9 which state that salvation is by faith, not works. Then, there are verses like 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 that list certain types of people who won't enter Heaven. Well here's the thing...not only does Paul mention at least once in the Bible that he struggles with sin, but don't all true Christians still struggle with sin at least a little bit? This is what confuses me...for example, it only takes one instance of adultery to become an adulterer/adulteress. People who are true Christians can sometimes make these mistakes. But does this mean they lose their salvation since adultery is one thing listed that can prevent someone from entering into Heaven?

The fact is, nobody does everything right 100% of the time. Granted, people grow as they walk with Christ, but sometimes we all stumble. If one instance of making a mistake put someone into the category of adulterer, thief, or another one of those categories listed in Corinthians, does that mean they are destined for Hell? Or do verses like Corinthians 6:9-11 refer to people who are unsaved only? Obviously the Christian life is marked by coming out of these sinful activities, but even true Christians make mistakes. Even Peter and Paul made mistakes.

I'm confused...
 
Feb 17, 2010
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#2
Gaming_drummer, who says there is not one person on theis earth that does not fall or stumble. Not the Bible! The Bible says... 2 Peter 1:10... Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
I believe this.... Jesus said come to me and I will give you rest.... That rest is non existing when we stumble and fall and sin. It has to be a perfect rest...
Jesus says... If I make you free you are free indeed.... What does Jesus make us free from? Sin and EVIL!
No my friend Jesus says in HIM is no sin, and all believers are IN HIM AND HE IN THEM! There is no sin or mistakes in the picture!

Eph 4:11 to 13 says this..... Remember a saint is already a holy person... holy means NO SIN!...
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Let me ask you if God deliver a person from evil, how delivered is this person? And look what the Bible says about God delivering...
2 Peter 2:9... The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
If God delivers you out of temptation, do you think you can fall for that temptation? NOPE!
 
Dec 1, 2012
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#3
Something I've been having trouble understanding recently is whether there is such a thing as eternal security. In other words, if salvation is permanent or not.

The thing that confuses me is that there are verses like Ephesians 2:8-9 which state that salvation is by faith, not works. Then, there are verses like 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 that list certain types of people who won't enter Heaven. Well here's the thing...not only does Paul mention at least once in the Bible that he struggles with sin, but don't all true Christians still struggle with sin at least a little bit? This is what confuses me...for example, it only takes one instance of adultery to become an adulterer/adulteress. People who are true Christians can sometimes make these mistakes. But does this mean they lose their salvation since adultery is one thing listed that can prevent someone from entering into Heaven?

The fact is, nobody does everything right 100% of the time. Granted, people grow as they walk with Christ, but sometimes we all stumble. If one instance of making a mistake put someone into the category of adulterer, thief, or another one of those categories listed in Corinthians, does that mean they are destined for Hell? Or do verses like Corinthians 6:9-11 refer to people who are unsaved only? Obviously the Christian life is marked by coming out of these sinful activities, but even true Christians make mistakes. Even Peter and Paul made mistakes.

I'm confused...
You will always have confusion until you approach it the way that it's meant to be seen. All men are saved but here we being children of the flesh cannot enter. It's our minds that are transformed in shedding useless weights and burdens holding us down. Who's a christian or a muslim. Who's good or bad then we ALL die like those before us. Here it is thousands of years and 7 billion people later, we're arguing over the same dead issues. Going to church on sunday/saturday. Eating pork, being gay. These things are of wrath, seeming as how we all should know that these things are why we die to begin with.
 
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Repentionofignorance

Guest
#4
The only way to truly lose your salvation is to fall away forever, which is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. If course, we all fall down, but if fall away and never return, then you are in danger of hell fire. Because to fall away and never return, it is impossible to repent and be forgiven, because it is liken to cricketing the Son of God again, putting Him to an open shame. Do you know how you know you never did it? If your worried about it, then you have never done it =) only people who have done it, or people who are not saved do not care
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#5
Works unfold because of His power in you. If you start with whatever faith you have, He will let you grow gradually in works, and in victory over sin. He has timing and method all figured out, and He will look the other way on things you are not ready to overcome yet (the mistakes). Just set your desire on Him, and decide you don't want to do things He doesn't like. Do what you can to do whatever you think is pleasing to Him. The rest is His problem, and He is very good at solving it. He wants you in heaven, because He created you for His love. After a while, you will see the progress in your life, and know how He does it, so you'll see what I'm talking about.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#6
Something I've been having trouble understanding recently is whether there is such a thing as eternal security. In other words, if salvation is permanent or not.

The thing that confuses me is that there are verses like Ephesians 2:8-9 which state that salvation is by faith, not works. Then, there are verses like 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 that list certain types of people who won't enter Heaven. Well here's the thing...not only does Paul mention at least once in the Bible that he struggles with sin, but don't all true Christians still struggle with sin at least a little bit? This is what confuses me...for example, it only takes one instance of adultery to become an adulterer/adulteress. People who are true Christians can sometimes make these mistakes. But does this mean they lose their salvation since adultery is one thing listed that can prevent someone from entering into Heaven?

The fact is, nobody does everything right 100% of the time. Granted, people grow as they walk with Christ, but sometimes we all stumble. If one instance of making a mistake put someone into the category of adulterer, thief, or another one of those categories listed in Corinthians, does that mean they are destined for Hell? Or do verses like Corinthians 6:9-11 refer to people who are unsaved only? Obviously the Christian life is marked by coming out of these sinful activities, but even true Christians make mistakes. Even Peter and Paul made mistakes.

I'm confused...

Salvation and Eternal Life are TWO DIFFERENT things.

Look at this passage...

2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2Pe 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

In verses 3 and 4 Peter specifically teaches that God has given us everything we need that pertain to life and godliness and that we have been called to glory and virtue. He then speaks of the great promises through which we may be partakers in the "divine nature" having ESCAPED the "corruption in the world through lust."

The question to ask yourself is HAVE YOU escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust? For one must first have escaped that before they can be partakers of the divine nature.

Peter then teaches that having escaped this corruption that we are to then diligently add to our faith and that if we do in fact do this then abundant entrance into the kingdom shall be ministered to us. Notice that this is a parallel to this statement...

Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

See how verse 7 above parallels what Peter was teaching? If one adds to their faith in the manner Peter describes then they will be "patiently continuing in well doing seeking for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life."

There IS eternal security in the sense that God will grant us entrance into the kingdom IF WE CONTINUE. This is why Peter would say something like this...

1Pe 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
1Pe 5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
1Pe 5:3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
1Pe 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
1Pe 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
1Pe 5:6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:
1Pe 5:7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.
1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
1Pe 5:9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
1Pe 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

Paul stated this...

Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Php 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
Php 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

We are secure in this sense...

Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

But that is a conditional promise in the context that we must REMAIN and CONTINUE. If we are to WALK AWAY then that work will not be performed in us.

You see God works in us to will and to do (Php 2:13) but we have to work fully in the application (Php 2:12, note: "work out" means "work fully, work to completion.") which is why both Jesus and James taught that we must be DOERS of the word and not hearers only (Mat 7:24-27, Jam 1:21-22).

If you study Hebrews 11 you'll clearly see that FAITH is the "doing aspect" which dynamically and effectually makes grace effectual. Noah BUILT the ark by faith but God authored the blueprints by which he built off. The working together with God (2Cor 6:1) ensured that the grace was not received in vain. This is why the Bible teaches that God is the "author of salvation of those who obey Him" (Heb 5:9), without obedience there is no righteousness (Rom 6:16) and thus no holiness (Rom 6:19) and the end of holiness is eternal life (Rom 6:22). This is why the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ (Rom 6:23), if one does not "abide in Christ" which means they are walking after the Spirit in submission to the will of God then there will be no eternal life for them.

The grace that saves teaches us how we should live (Tit 2:11-12) and when we yield to it purity of heart is the result (Act 15:9). Hence we are saved by grace THROUGH faith. When the Bible says it is "not of works" it is in the context of the "works of the law" which can only cleanse the outside of the cup and not the inner man.

Many false teachers take the "not of works" and imply that it is "not of a WORKING FAITH." They are in error for faith IS a work (1Th 1:3) and faith work by love (Gal 5:6) and it is through the exercise of a faith that works by love that one FULFILLS the righteousness of the law (Rom 8:4) with the law having been established in the heart (Rom 3:31). This is how "our righteousness is to exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees."

Righteousness comes by walking in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ (Rom 8:2) whereby we are vessels willingly yielded to God with Him manifesting through us.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.


So going back to an early point, make sure you have first escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust (2Pet 1:3-4). It is lust which draws men into sin (Jam 1:14-15, Gen 3:6) and a Christian who goes through a broken godly sorrow and repentance (2Cor 7:1-11) and dies WITH Christ (Rom 6:4-7) is set free from the dominion of sin and thus no longer yield to the lusts of the flesh (1Pet 4:2) and sin in that way (1Pet 4:1). A Christian has crucified their flesh with the passions and desires (Gal 5:24).

So summing up we die with Christ putting off the old man so that we can be raised up by God as a new man. We are then to run the race by adding to our faith as we will mature more and more into the image of Christ. Do this and you will assuredly be granted entrance into the kingdom.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#7
Salvation and Eternal Life are TWO DIFFERENT things.
one. would you stop your cut and paste books. they do not support your case.
two. salvation IS eternal life. if we do not have life, we are dead in sin, and are not saved.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#8
one. would you stop your cut and paste books. they do not support your case.
two. salvation IS eternal life. if we do not have life, we are dead in sin, and are not saved.
My cutting and pasting of scripture from e-sword must really annoy you.

Eternal life is the "end of holiness" and not the beginning. That is what the Bible teaches.

Eternal life is a promise and the ultimate saving of the soul comes at the end of the race, not before it is finished. The scriptures warn not to be draw back due to this precept. Thus you have to "patiently continue in doing good."

1Jn 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
1Jn 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
Heb 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.


You may not like me quoting scripture, for in doing so, my posts contradict your ongoing fallacious rhetoric.


Don't be deceived for the unrighteous will most certainly not inherit the kingdom.Therefore...

Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
 
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crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,707
3,650
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#9
God is eternal, God is secure...yes there is such a thing as eternal security. It is found in Jesus the Eternal One and not in us. When we quit navel gazing
and turn our trust upon Him we rest in His Everlasting, Everloving arms. The law will turn you inward but the Gospel being extra-nos (outside ourselves) will keep our sinful paws from soiling that treasure which is reserved in heaven.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#10
My cutting and pasting of scripture from e-sword must really annoy you.

Eternal life is the "end of holiness" and not the beginning. That is what the Bible teaches.
yeah it does. because they do not prove your point, all your doing is spouting alot of scripture which you think supports you when it does not.

God said we HAVE (past tense) eternal life. thus it is not a future thing,m it is a present tense thing.. If you don;t like it. go yell at God, he is the one your calling a liar.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#11
yeah it does. because they do not prove your point, all your doing is spouting alot of scripture which you think supports you when it does not.

God said we HAVE (past tense) eternal life. thus it is not a future thing,m it is a present tense thing.. If you don;t like it. go yell at God, he is the one your calling a liar.
Which specific scripture are you going to try and isolate out of context to prove that?

Quote it please so I can clearly illustrate your fallacy.


The Bible teaches precept upon precept, here a little and there a little. The scripture is also not of any private interpretation. I have seen you many times take a snippet of scripture and apply it in such away as if to imply that is negates what other scriptures plainly state.

So please use the scriptures to prove your assertion so I can unpack it for all the readers. Then people can make up their own minds as to whether one of us is speaking the truth.

John 3:16? 1Jn 5:11?
 
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starfield

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2009
3,393
58
48
#12
Something I've been having trouble understanding recently is whether there is such a thing as eternal security. In other words, if salvation is permanent or not.

The thing that confuses me is that there are verses like Ephesians 2:8-9 which state that salvation is by faith, not works. Then, there are verses like 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 that list certain types of people who won't enter Heaven. Well here's the thing...not only does Paul mention at least once in the Bible that he struggles with sin, but don't all true Christians still struggle with sin at least a little bit? This is what confuses me...for example, it only takes one instance of adultery to become an adulterer/adulteress. People who are true Christians can sometimes make these mistakes. But does this mean they lose their salvation since adultery is one thing listed that can prevent someone from entering into Heaven?

The fact is, nobody does everything right 100% of the time. Granted, people grow as they walk with Christ, but sometimes we all stumble. If one instance of making a mistake put someone into the category of adulterer, thief, or another one of those categories listed in Corinthians, does that mean they are destined for Hell? Or do verses like Corinthians 6:9-11 refer to people who are unsaved only? Obviously the Christian life is marked by coming out of these sinful activities, but even true Christians make mistakes. Even Peter and Paul made mistakes.

I'm confused...
One who has been truly regenerated by God and has the His Spirit indwelling in them will demonstrate faith in God by being obedient to Him and will not go back into their old defiant lifestyle. 2 Cor 5:17-18 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation. Yes Christians do make mistakes and can make wrong judgments but our lifestyle should not be characterized by flagrant premeditated sins rather the righteousness of God should seen in us. A believer that finds themself constantly falling into sin, gratifying carnal desires, needs to re-examine their life and ask God for sanctification. When God sanctifies you, you will distaste the ungodly things that you once loved, you feel that inner passion and burning for God to always do His will. Remember that it is God's will that we are sanctified and holy. He wants to be in a harmonized relationship with us but when we are living in sin it is disharmony and it angers Him.

We can be assured of our salvation, no one can lay any charge against us, and there is security in Jesus Christ as long as we continue to walk with Him but nowhere in the scriptures declares that there is security in sin or one can be in right standing with God whilst in rebellion against Him. One can die spiritually even over one act of adultery or stealing, but fortunately it is not a permanent state or at least it does not have to be, the door of grace and mercy is always open for you to return to the Savior and receive forgiveness from God.

By the faithfulness and mercy of God, all the Israelites escaped Egypt, which symbolizes salvation from sin and were baptized into Moses in the Red Sea and cloud (symbolizing baptism by water and Spirit), however not all the multitudes who left Egypt entered Canaan because of unbelief. So this shows that God does not wink at sin. He is a jealous God and declared in His word that He will not give His glory to anyone. No one can serve the master of sin as well as the Master of righteousness. The act of fleeing from Sodom and Gomorrah can be likened to salvation but then Lot's wife looked back (backslid) because she had affection for the world, the old wicked life in Sodom, and became a pillar of salt. King David was in an unjustified state when he committed adultery and murder and if he refused to repent and died in that state he would have gone to Hell.

Ezekiel 18:20- The soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Matt 10:33- But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Matt 25:8-12
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
The carelessness of five of the virgins disqualified them from the marriage.

Luke 9:62- And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.
Once we start to follow Jesus we should not turn back into the world of sin or else we will not be fit for the kingdom of God.

Luke 12:45-46 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for h
im, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. He was the servant of his lord but then because of his wickedness his lord was going to appoint him his portion with unbelievers- hell.

Luke 15:24- For this my son wasdead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
This is the account of the prodigal son. Notice that he was considered spiritually dead while in his wayward ways but when he returned to his father he became spiritually alive.

1 Cor 3:17- If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. This cannot be addressing unbelievers as their bodies are not the temple of God. It is addressing believers.

1 Tim 4:1- Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;


Rev 3:16- So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Being a Christian is more than saying "I have faith, I'm saved". Do you love God? Do you obey Him? Do you deny the flesh through the power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in you or do you make provision for the flesh? Do you take up your cross daily and follow Jesus? Are you being the salt of the earth and an ambassador for Christ? Can Christ call you a good and faithful servant?

These are what true believers who love God and want to enter His kingdom will do:
Matt 24:12-13 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Phil 2:12- Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.


Heb 5:9- And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Heb 12:2- Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Heb 12:14- Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

1 Tim 6:12- Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

Jude 1:3- Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#13
Which specific scripture are you going to try and isolate out of context to prove that?

Quote it please so I can clearly illustrate your fallacy.


The Bible teaches pJohn also says God has given us eternal life (not that he might, he has given) recept upon precept, here a little and there a little. The scripture is also not of any private interpretation. I have seen you many times take a snippet of scripture and apply it in such away as if to imply that is negates what other scriptures plainly state.

So please use the scriptures to prove your assertion so I can unpack it for all the readers. Then people can make up their own minds as to whether one of us is speaking the truth.

John 3:16? 1Jn 5:11?
well lets see. John tells us we can KNOW WE HAVE eternal life. how could he say that if it is not true? he also says he has given it to us, not that we might get it..

Jesus himself in john 3 says whoever believes in him HAS eternal life and will never die (meaning it is given at th emoment of faith)

in john 6 he says the same thing, they will never hunger thirst, never die, live forever, and wait for it, here it comes.. ARE PROMISED HE WILL RAISE THEM ON THE LAST DAY.. so you see. all these things are given BEFORE he ressurection. not after like you want to claim.

Paul tells us in eph that one we trust christ and the gospel. we are sealed with the spirit until the ressurection, and this is our guarantee. this is eternal life.

you can post long passages again, but no one reads them. and in order to refute this, you have to refute language, has in never interpreted might have, or will have, it is present tense for a reason.
 

superdave5221

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
1,409
31
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#14
well lets see. John tells us we can KNOW WE HAVE eternal life. how could he say that if it is not true? he also says he has given it to us, not that we might get it..

Jesus himself in john 3 says whoever believes in him HAS eternal life and will never die (meaning it is given at th emoment of faith)

in john 6 he says the same thing, they will never hunger thirst, never die, live forever, and wait for it, here it comes.. ARE PROMISED HE WILL RAISE THEM ON THE LAST DAY.. so you see. all these things are given BEFORE he ressurection. not after like you want to claim.

Paul tells us in eph that one we trust christ and the gospel. we are sealed with the spirit until the ressurection, and this is our guarantee. this is eternal life.

you can post long passages again, but no one reads them. and in order to refute this, you have to refute language, has in never interpreted might have, or will have, it is present tense for a reason.
Hello EG,

Believe me brother, I am a lot closer to agreeing with you on this topic than I used to be, as your eloquent arguments have done much to convince me, as well as additional biblical studying. However.....

Let's take a look at the Parable of the Sower.

Matthew 13: 1 That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. 2 Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore. 3 Then he told them many things in parables, saying: "A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up.

1. The above are the people who counted the gospel as worthless and ignored it.

5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow.
6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.

2. These were people who gladly accepted the gospel because they were looking for that which would profit them and provide for their worldly needs, and not quickly finding it, they abandoned their belief.

7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants.

3. These were those who accepted the gospel, until their worldly needs and problems became more important than their spiritual needs.

8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop--a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 He who has ears, let him hear."

4. These were the ones who accepted the gospel and are in the kingdom of God today.

Are you saying that only those represented by verse 8 were ever saved to begin with? And those, who all of us know examples of, who represent verses 5-7 and who populate our churches in ever greater numbers today, were never saved?

Luke 9: 62 Jesus replied, "No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God."

Also, consider the following:

Luke 9: 49 "Master," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us." 50 "Do not stop him," Jesus said, "for whoever is not against you is for you."

Matthew 7: 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. 21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

How is it possible to perform miracles and drive out demons (IN JESUS' NAME), and not be saved? Does being saved require more than the faith that it would take to perform miracles and cast out demons in Jesus' name?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#15
Hello EG,

Believe me brother, I am a lot closer to agreeing with you on this topic than I used to be, as your eloquent arguments have done much to convince me, as well as additional biblical studying. However.....

Let's take a look at the Parable of the Sower.

Matthew 13: 1 That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. 2 Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore. 3 Then he told them many things in parables, saying: "A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up.

1. The above are the people who counted the gospel as worthless and ignored it.

5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow.
6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.

2. These were people who gladly accepted the gospel because they were looking for that which would profit them and provide for their worldly needs, and not quickly finding it, they abandoned their belief.

7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants.

3. These were those who accepted the gospel, until their worldly needs and problems became more important than their spiritual needs.

8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop--a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 He who has ears, let him hear."

4. These were the ones who accepted the gospel and are in the kingdom of God today.

Are you saying that only those represented by verse 8 were ever saved to begin with? And those, who all of us know examples of, who represent verses 5-7 and who populate our churches in ever greater numbers today, were never saved?
Yes, We have all the examples. In the first example, we have people who hear it. and outright reject it, like you said.

In the second we have people who heard the gospel. and gladly accepted it, but since it had no root (it was mere belief and not faith, thus they were not connected to the vine) So when things got rough, they left, because it was not satisfying their needs.

in the third, We have people who hear the gospel, But instead of coming out of the world (the weeds) they continued to stay in the world. and the world choked them out (this would be like someone saying he came to Christ, then being ridiculed by his friends and family for doing so.. And since again his faith had no root. He was easily taken away)


One thing you will notice. Only the 4th group produced fruit. This is because it was watered by the Vine (Christ) and their faith was real (think of james, faith without works is dead) as shown by their fruit (work)

Luke 9: 62 Jesus replied, "No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God."
Also, consider the following:

Luke 9: 49 "Master," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us." 50 "Do not stop him," Jesus said, "for whoever is not against you is for you."

Matthew 7: 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. 21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

How is it possible to perform miracles and drive out demons (IN JESUS' NAME), and not be saved? Does being saved require more than the faith that it would take to perform miracles and cast out demons in Jesus' name?

there is one point to look at in that passage. Jesus said HE NEVER KNEW THEM. Can someone be saved at one time, then lose that salvation and not ever personaly known God (when they were saved) so would Jesus not be lieing when he said he never knew them.

as for the verses. there is nothing in the first that says the person was saved, He only looked partway forward. the other was back. He did not have faith

the second. Nothing says that man was not saved, In fact jesus said he was not against the disciples. so he would not have been against christ would he? I would say he was saved.

For the third. we see people trying to work to earn salvation. The works they CLAIMED to have done was their excuse and reasoning God should save them. Not their faith in Christ. A person who was truely saved would not use these excuses of their great deeds and boast of themselves. They would say But Lord. I trusted you with my life and my eternity.. Where did I go wrong in my faith?
Of course that would never happen, Because one who has real faith will never be told depart from me, for I never knew you.
 

superdave5221

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
1,409
31
48
#16
One thing you will notice. Only the 4th group produced fruit. This is because it was watered by the Vine (Christ) and their faith was real (think of james, faith without works is dead) as shown by their fruit (work)

So here you are saying that in order to produce works, (fruit), they have to be saved and watered by the vine. Yet below, you are saying that other persons, who produced the more difficult fruit (miracles, casting out demons, prophecy) using the name of Jesus Christ, is not watered by the vine in whose name they are empowered. This seems odd.



there is one point to look at in that passage. Jesus said HE NEVER KNEW THEM. Can someone be saved at one time, then lose that salvation and not ever personaly known God (when they were saved) so would Jesus not be lieing when he said he never knew them.

I don't have a perfect answer to this. But in the context of their fruit, as you say from above watered by the vine of Christ, it would seem that they did know him at one time. Perhaps Jesus uses the term "never" to point to the fact that He has never known them in eternity.


For the third. we see people trying to work to earn salvation. The works they CLAIMED to have done was their excuse and reasoning God should save them. Not their faith in Christ. A person who was truely saved would not use these excuses of their great deeds and boast of themselves. They would say But Lord. I trusted you with my life and my eternity.. Where did I go wrong in my faith? Of course that would never happen, Because one who has real faith will never be told depart from me, for I never knew you.


But the works (fruit) that they did would not be possible without being, as you say, watered by the vine of Jesus Christ. I know of no Christians in my life who have performed miracles or exorcised demons in the name of Christ, as these people did. As you say, the others in the example of the Parable of the Sower, would not be able to perform these works.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,707
3,650
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#17
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God [be] for us, who [can be] against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#18
God is eternal, God is secure...yes there is such a thing as eternal security. It is found in Jesus the Eternal One and not in us. When we quit navel gazing
and turn our trust upon Him we rest in His Everlasting, Everloving arms. The law will turn you inward but the Gospel being extra-nos (outside ourselves) will keep our sinful paws from soiling that treasure which is reserved in heaven.
good post crossnote!:)
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#19
Something I've been having trouble understanding recently is whether there is such a thing as eternal security. In other words, if salvation is permanent or not.

The thing that confuses me is that there are verses like Ephesians 2:8-9 which state that salvation is by faith, not works. Then, there are verses like 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 that list certain types of people who won't enter Heaven. Well here's the thing...not only does Paul mention at least once in the Bible that he struggles with sin, but don't all true Christians still struggle with sin at least a little bit? This is what confuses me...for example, it only takes one instance of adultery to become an adulterer/adulteress. People who are true Christians can sometimes make these mistakes. But does this mean they lose their salvation since adultery is one thing listed that can prevent someone from entering into Heaven?

The fact is, nobody does everything right 100% of the time. Granted, people grow as they walk with Christ, but sometimes we all stumble. If one instance of making a mistake put someone into the category of adulterer, thief, or another one of those categories listed in Corinthians, does that mean they are destined for Hell? Or do verses like Corinthians 6:9-11 refer to people who are unsaved only? Obviously the Christian life is marked by coming out of these sinful activities, but even true Christians make mistakes. Even Peter and Paul made mistakes.

I'm confused...
Psalm 32:5
Then I acknowledged my sin to you and did not cover up my iniquity. I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the LORD"--and you forgave the guilt of my sin. Selah

Psalm 51:2
Wash away all my iniquity and cleanse me from my sin.

Proverbs 28:13
He who conceals his sins does not prosper, but whoever confesses and renounces them finds mercy.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
 
P

psychomom

Guest
#20
The reason it's a new and better covenant is because it's founded on better Promise(s), yeah? :) (Heb. 8:6)

It's not about what we do, or don't do. It's not about us, at all.
It's about The Promise Keeper, and the fact He does keep His promises. ♥
It's about a covenant mediated by Christ (not angels).
It's about a Sacrifice that was perfect, and eternal.

Can we 'undo' the blood offering of Christ for His people?
Can we remit sin back to people whose sins have been forgiven and forgotten by God?
Is man, and the work of man, more powerful than God?

I'm thinking 'no'. :)
-ellie