Is tithing imposed on the gentiles in the new covenant?

[AllenW]

It is- they have a building to meet in to shelter them from the elements, complete with electricity, and a pew to sit on. Any member in need of food or clothes will not be overlooked, if they are, how can the love of God be in that congregation? But if the minister is spending his time studying and preparing sermons, how can he also work to provide for his family? If he chooses to work also, or chooses not to accept his God-given portion- that's up to him, but it is rightfully his, God provides it for him. Are you jealous? Does not God also provide for you? Does not the minister also have to give back to God from which He has provided? If another member is blind they might feel the same way- why does he get sight and I don't? Like Job said, the Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away, but I will love and honor Him the same no matter what.

Hi PurerInHeart (then who?)
I see how easily I have caused you to misunderstand me and I am sorry for that.
Let's see if I can say it better.
I must ask at this point where in the Bible does it say we are to give money to church organizations for any purpose at all?
Where does it say we are to pay a salary and benefits to a pastor?
Where does it say we are to use God's money to do that?
Since I am a New Testament Christian, please use New Testament verses to justify it.
I'll save you the time.
There are none.
So what you are trying to say is that there are Old Testament Laws that apply to New Testament giving.
Why?
Because the New Testament doesn't tell us how to give?
Sorry, read your Bible and learn the truth and stop trying to change what is says to justify what you choose to believe.
If you feel a pastor needs to be supported, fine.
But using God's money to support him?
You have a long way to go to show biblical support for that.

You think because I refuse to support a pastor's lifestyle that I don't give to God?
I give more to God now than at any time in my life because I now understand giving and what God expects of me.
If I choose to support a pastor or a church organization, I will do that out of my own money, not God's money.
It would be wise to learn the difference.
Joining a church and paying for it is no different than joining a club.
You pay dues, participate in activities as a volunteer, raise money for good causes, and have great fellowship together.
I think a lot of these private clubs do a better job at this than most church organizations do.

I see your entire post is based in the Old Testament.
Try leaving in the New Testament.
All the answers are there.
And Jesus gives us freedom.

 

[PurerInHeart]

A: I can just go and feed the hungry myself and minister to them directly.
B: God spoke directly to people in the Old Testament. Hence, the sacrifices.
C: The original tithes were the land.
D: If a guy works minimum wage to feed his family of four (him, his wife, and two kids), and they sometimes don't even have enough to live, it's still expected to give money he doesn't even have? As said above, I think God would know what constitute as an emergency (my kids and wife will starve) versus not an emergency (I want to buy a brand new tv).

A: How brave you are to tell God that you can distribute His money for Him, that He has no say so over His money. You can choose to also help the poor out of your own money- that's freelance giving. But you cannot take God's money and tell Him where He may spend it.

B: You don't think God requires sacrifice in the New Testament? "If you are about to give your offering to God, and there remember you brother or sister has something against you, first go make amends with them, then you can give your offering." (I'm paraphrasing).

C: Yes, they had to tithe everything- their money, their land, their animals, etc. In the New Testament, in speaking of money, Jesus says give to Cesar what is Cesar's and give to God what is God's.

D: The righteous shall live by faith. But God says if you have an emergency, such as your mother in need of a doctor, go ahead and use your offering for that. If your family needs food or clothes, Jesus said look how He clothes the grass of the fields and feeds the birds of the air, how much more will God provide for you? If you have an ongoing problem, speak to the elders. God gave them the job of making sure we go by scripture, and the deacons to make sure no one in need is overlooked. Again, in such matters, God knows our intentions. But when He says to give in church, and we choose not to, we better have a good reason- like you said, if we just wanted a new tv- that's not a good reason. I've seen the church give a member money for needs, and he went and bought cigarettes and alcohol.

 

[FranC]

Where in the bible does it say that? In 1 Timothy 2:9 He tells women not to wear expensive clothes. This is at least a 'expensive no', can you find anywhere it says 'expensive yes'? (In the New Testament)

Hi PureInHeart,

1 Timothy 2:9

It says:
"Likewise I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments." NASB

What he's saying is that women should be sensible in manner and clothing. Christian women should not be NOTICED for how they wear their hair or because of their clothes or jewels.

I believe even a wealthy person could dress in expensive clothes but still be modest. I mean, if someone is making millions of dollars a year, she's not going to her nearest Kohl's to buy clothes. This is not sinful. It is the INTENT that counts. If one is doing is to "show off" then it is sinful, if one is dressing in expensive clothes because it's normal for them - it cannot be a sin.

Woman wore braided hair back then to show their status in society. THIS is what Paul is telling Timothy is wrong. He said to be "modest". Not to be showy.

I believe there's a difference.

Fran

 

[jsr1221]

A: How brave you are to tell God that you can distribute His money for Him, that He has no say so over His money. You can choose to also help the poor out of your own money- that's freelance giving. But you cannot take God's money and tell Him where He may spend it.

B: You don't think God requires sacrifice in the New Testament? "If you are about to give your offering to God, and there remember you brother or sister has something against you, first go make amends with them, then you can give your offering." (I'm paraphrasing).

C: Yes, they had to tithe everything- their money, their land, their animals, etc. In the New Testament, in speaking of money, Jesus says give to Cesar what is Cesar's and give to God what is God's.

D: The righteous shall live by faith. But God says if you have an emergency, such as your mother in need of a doctor, go ahead and use your offering for that. If your family needs food or clothes, Jesus said look how He clothes the grass of the fields and feeds the birds of the air, how much more will God provide for you? If you have an ongoing problem, speak to the elders. God gave them the job of making sure we go by scripture, and the deacons to make sure no one in need is overlooked. Again, in such matters, God knows our intentions. But when He says to give in church, and we choose not to, we better have a good reason- like you said, if we just wanted a new tv- that's not a good reason. I've seen the church give a member money for needs, and he went and bought cigarettes and alcohol.

A: If I see a homeless man and I have 20 dollars, God isn't going to stop me in my tracks and say "Hey, see that man? See that 20 dollars in your wallet? Give it to him and get him something to eat?" God puts people in our paths, hence the homeless man, and God would expect me to use it on the homeless guy.

B: If I pissed off somebody where he or she does not want anything to do with me, I don't go make amends by giving that person money. That's not what that verse says. You tried paraphrasing but took Scripture way out of line on that one.

C: Jesus never specifically tells us to pay money. That cheerfulness is turning into obligation, which God doesn't want. It ultimately defeats the purpose of being a "cheerful giver."

D: If a family of four works minimum wage, there won't be any leftovers for offerings. An offering is anything about ten percent. So if they only have enough to make ends meet and not enough for tithe, how on Earth do you expect on offering?

E: You missed this point.

 

[PurerInHeart]

Hi PureInHeart,

1 Timothy 2:9

It says:
"Likewise I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments." NASB

What he's saying is that women should be sensible in manner and clothing. Christian women should not be NOTICED for how they wear their hair or because of their clothes or jewels.

I believe even a wealthy person could dress in expensive clothes but still be modest. I mean, if someone is making millions of dollars a year, she's not going to her nearest Kohl's to buy clothes. This is not sinful. It is the INTENT that counts. If one is doing is to "show off" then it is sinful, if one is dressing in expensive clothes because it's normal for them - it cannot be a sin.

Woman wore braided hair back then to show their status in society. THIS is what Paul is telling Timothy is wrong. He said to be "modest". Not to be showy.

I believe there's a difference.

Fran

It is sinful. Knolls should be good enough. I asked my biological mother for fifty dollars for groceries so I could feed myself and my toddler. She said she can't, yet right away bought an $800 dog. Michael Jackson bought a vase for millions of dollars- how insulting to God's people- that a dog and a vase are more valuable then they are? How can someone spend so extravagantly when there are so many in need? That is NOT what Jesus would do.

 

[willfollowsGod]

First of all do not use the word imposed, the tithe is not imposed on anyone. Since you addressed the question, in such terms I am not going to answer the poll until it is less loaded. It is a general model, you can give 10% or more. Like the tithe given to Melchizedek by Abraham in Genesis 14:18-20 and there are other verses in the Bible that talk about a tithe. In fact it is similar to giving the best that you can give to God such as when Abel gave his offering to God, the firstfruits of his flock and not just a bunch of fruit that Cain gave and it was not accepted.

Genesis 14:18-20
Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. He was priest of God Most High, and he blessed Abram, saying,


“Blessed be Abram by God Most High,
Creator of heaven and earth.
And praise be to God Most High,
who delivered your enemies into your hand.”
Then Abram gave him a tenth of everything.

Malachi 3:8-10
“Will a mere mortal rob God? Yet you rob me.


“But you ask, ‘How are we robbing you?’


“In tithes and offerings. You are under a curse—your whole nation—because you are robbing me. Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the Lord Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it.

Leviticus 27:30
“‘A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the Lord; it is holy to the Lord.

Numbers 18:21
“I give to the Levites all the tithes in Israel as their inheritance in return for the work they do while serving at the tent of meeting.

P.S. This a verse that can be used to defend some pastors taking a commission for preaching the word of God.

Those are my two cents. Thanks. God bless.

 

[PurerInHeart]

Hi PurerInHeart (then who?)
I see how easily I have caused you to misunderstand me and I am sorry for that.
Let's see if I can say it better.
I must ask at this point where in the Bible does it say we are to give money to church organizations for any purpose at all?
Where does it say we are to pay a salary and benefits to a pastor?
Where does it say we are to use God's money to do that?
Since I am a New Testament Christian, please use New Testament verses to justify it.
I'll save you the time.
There are none.
So what you are trying to say is that there are Old Testament Laws that apply to New Testament giving.
Why?
Because the New Testament doesn't tell us how to give?
Sorry, read your Bible and learn the truth and stop trying to change what is says to justify what you choose to believe.
If you feel a pastor needs to be supported, fine.
But using God's money to support him?
You have a long way to go to show biblical support for that.

You think because I refuse to support a pastor's lifestyle that I don't give to God?
I give more to God now than at any time in my life because I now understand giving and what God expects of me.
If I choose to support a pastor or a church organization, I will do that out of my own money, not God's money.
It would be wise to learn the difference.
Joining a church and paying for it is no different than joining a club.
You pay dues, participate in activities as a volunteer, raise money for good causes, and have great fellowship together.
I think a lot of these private clubs do a better job at this than most church organizations do.

I see your entire post is based in the Old Testament.
Try leaving in the New Testament.
All the answers are there.
And Jesus gives us freedom.

1 Corinthians 16:2- On the first day of the week we are to give so that no house to house collections need to be made.

1 Timothy 5:17,18 Proves preachers still get money from the offerings in the New Testament, not only them but elders and teachers.

 

[FranC]

Every member of the congregation has a right to know how church funds are being distributed. At our congregation we get a printout of offings made, and where that money went.

Again, it is giving to God- not giving to the minister. When Cain and Abel brought their sacrifice to the alter, were they bringing it to a man? No, they were bringing it to God. God accepted Abel's offering, but not Cain's offering. How then can you have hope that God will accept your offering, being that there isn't even one there?

Its God's business what He does with HIS money- whether it is to feed the hungry, provide for the minister, or build a tabernacle like He did in the Old Testament. Do you know His people contributed so much gold that they had to be told to stop because it was too much? Can you imagine that today? Members giving so much that they are told please, it's too much?

Jesus says give to Cesar what is Cesar's (taxes for the land in which we live) and give to God what is God's (church offerings). If you do not give God His portion, without good reason - like your mother being sick, that is in fact stealing from God! You are talking about the minister's greed (even though God decides to give him that money), what about your greed that has no excuse at all?

PureinHeart,

I believe that in your response to AllenW, above, you are incorrectly explaining a scripture.

First, it would be nice if you could actually post the verse so it could be readily available for us to read.

The verse you are referring to is Mathew 22:15-21
In your reply you state:
Jesus says give to Cesar what is Cesar's (taxes for the land in which we live) and give to God what is God's (church offerings)

When Jesus told the Pharisees that we are to render unto Caeser what is Caeser's and to God what is God's, He did NOT mean church offerings, as in your quote above -highlighted and underlined.

If you check Mathew 22:21 you'll find that Jesus exact words are:
"Then render to Caeser the things that are Caeser's; and to God the things that are God's."

He was holding a Roman coin at the time. So the coin belonged to Caeser. Rome stamped the coins, and they wanted taxes to be paid with them. So the coins belonged to Caeser and they should be rendered back to him.

But the coin did not belong to God. God did not stamp the coin. And so this would not be one of the things
that we should render to God.

God is spirit. He does not need money. This is what He needs:

Our desire to please Him
Our recognition of Him as our Lord
Our good behavior
Our Godly life
Our praise
Our affection
Our thanksgiving
Our service
Doing our part in the Kingdom of God.

MAN needs money. To pay expenses associated with running a building or a ministry. Some are so huge that they need millions of dollars every month. As I stated in an earlier post, we are under the New Covenant and are only required to give what we give joyfully and from the heart.

As far as helping our fellow man - we will each decide for ourselves how we can best accomplish this; some might decide to work through a church; and some might decide to do this on a personal level. I know a man in my town who pays his bills and buys food and then gives everything away to needy person. It is his right to do this if this is how he feels God wants him to help his neighbors. It's not our place to tell anyone HOW they are to help God's work here since we are his hands and feet.

Fran

 

[willfollowsGod]

The NT shows that a Christian is not a Gentile

Actually, the New Testament does not show that a Christian is not a Gentile. Since the majority of those who are Christians today can be classified as Gentiles, since a lot of us are not Jews. Some are but not all. Thanks. God bless.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

And someone asked "Is tithing imposed on the gentiles in the New Testament"?
Does what I say here sound like it comes from God?

From Satan, not God. I only wish you had answered your own question with that.

 

[PurerInHeart]

PureinHeart,

I believe that in your response to AllenW, above, you are incorrectly explaining a scripture.

First, it would be nice if you could actually post the verse so it could be readily available for us to read.

The verse you are referring to is Mathew 22:15-21
In your reply you state:
Jesus says give to Cesar what is Cesar's (taxes for the land in which we live) and give to God what is God's (church offerings)

When Jesus told the Pharisees that we are to render unto Caeser what is Caeser's and to God what is God's, He did NOT mean church offerings, as in your quote above -highlighted and underlined.

If you check Mathew 22:21 you'll find that Jesus exact words are:
"Then render to Caeser the things that are Caeser's; and to God the things that are God's."

He was holding a Roman coin at the time. So the coin belonged to Caeser. Rome stamped the coins, and they wanted taxes to be paid with them. So the coins belonged to Caeser and they should be rendered back to him.

But the coin did not belong to God. God did not stamp the coin. And so this would not be one of the things
that we should render to God.

God is spirit. He does not need money. This is what He needs:

Our desire to please Him
Our recognition of Him as our Lord
Our good behavior
Our Godly life
Our praise
Our affection
Our thanksgiving
Our service
Doing our part in the Kingdom of God.

MAN needs money. To pay expenses associated with running a building or a ministry. Some are so huge that they need millions of dollars every month. As I stated in an earlier post, we are under the New Covenant and are only required to give what we give joyfully and from the heart.

As far as helping our fellow man - we will each decide for ourselves how we can best accomplish this; some might decide to work through a church; and some might decide to do this on a personal level. I know a man in my town who pays his bills and buys food and then gives everything away to needy person. It is his right to do this if this is how he feels God wants him to help his neighbors. It's not our place to tell anyone HOW they are to help God's work here since we are his hands and feet.

Fran

It is very difficult on my iPad to copy and paste. I have to highlight many times cause it keeps disappearing before I can press copy, and I have to keep refreshing the page. I have to put them all together in a word document first, cause I can't do them all at once, and this site only gives you a short time to edit. It is almost easier to go back and forth from the word document to the Internet and type it out word for word. By that time people have moved on to a new subject. It is really difficult for me, when people can just type in the scripture address I give them. But I'll do it this time…


1 Corinthians 16:2 On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with your income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made


1 Timothy 5:17, 18 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. For Scripture says, "Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain," and "The worker deserves his wages.”

 

[FranC]

1 Corinthians 16:2- On the first day of the week we are to give so that no house to house collections need to be made.

1 Timothy 5:17,18 Proves preachers still get money from the offerings in the New Testament, not only them but elders and teachers.

You're quoting 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy for showing how we're to live?

Are you serious? You'd like to go back to how the early Christians lived?
I truly doubt it!! God killed someone for stealing from the pot!
See Acts 5:1-6 Ananias and Sapphira

And the first day of the week is coming up, Sunday, put your money aside!!
I doubt any of us would want to live as the early Christians did. It might even be the ideal way, but no longer possible, for whatever reason.

Do you know about Hippie Communes back in the 60's? They didn't work. We're too far from the originals and the sin nature affects everything.

Fran

 

[FranC]

It is very difficult on my iPad to copy and paste. I have to highlight many times cause it keeps disappearing before I can press copy, and I have to keep refreshing the page. I have to put them all together in a word document first, cause I can't do them all at once, and this site only gives you a short time to edit. It is almost easier to go back and forth from the word document to the Internet and type it out word for word. By that time people have moved on to a new subject. It is really difficult for me, when people can just type in the scripture address I give them. But I'll do it this time…


1 Corinthians 16:2 On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with your income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made


1 Timothy 5:17, 18 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. For Scripture says, "Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain," and "The worker deserves his wages.”

No PureinHeart-

Corinthians and Timothy are just above and it's not the post I was referring to in the reply you have in the quote box.

In that one you were referring to Mathew 22:15-21

Fran
Get to a computer!!

 

[PurerInHeart]

You're quoting 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy for showing how we're to live?

Are you serious? You'd like to go back to how the early Christians lived?
I truly doubt it!! God killed someone for stealing from the pot!
See Acts 5:1-6 Ananias and Sapphira

And the first day of the week is coming up, Sunday, put your money aside!!
I doubt any of us would want to live as the early Christians did. It might even be the ideal way, but no longer possible, for whatever reason.

Do you know about Hippie Communes back in the 60's? They didn't work. We're too far from the originals and the sin nature affects everything.

Fran

Are YOU serious? Christ established His church and it is to remain the same until He comes again. Do you follow a man-made doctrine? We must follow the bible only. God says, "They worship Me in vain, teaching as doctrine the commands of men."

 

[FranC]

It is sinful. Knolls should be good enough. I asked my biological mother for fifty dollars for groceries so I could feed myself and my toddler. She said she can't, yet right away bought an $800 dog. Michael Jackson bought a vase for millions of dollars- how insulting to God's people- that a dog and a vase are more valuable then they are? How can someone spend so extravagantly when there are so many in need? That is NOT what Jesus would do.

I won't explain again. If you don't get it, you don't get it.
Not everyone is your mom, BTW.

And you're a WWJD person?

I hope you apply that standard to EVERYTHING you do!

Fran

 

[jsr1221]

I won't explain again. If you don't get it, you don't get it.
Not everyone is your mom, BTW.

And you're a WWJD person?

I hope you apply that standard to EVERYTHING you do!

Fran

Why have the need to wear a 15,000 dollar jacket, though, or buy so many cars to not even drive just because one can? I think if a person has a lot of money, that shouldn't all of a sudden change in a lifestyle. I get my clothes from Walmart, and darn it if I ever am blessed enough to have a lot of money, I am going to continue getting my clothes from Walmart. Why people feel the need to buy expensive stuff just because they have the money is beyond me. And yes, that is materialism which equates to sin.

 

[PurerInHeart]

I won't explain again. If you don't get it, you don't get it.
Not everyone is your mom, BTW.

And you're a WWJD person?

I hope you apply that standard to EVERYTHING you do!

Fran

Every christian should ask themselves what would Jesus do? We are to take up our cross and follow Him. It's kinda hard to follow someone if you don't consider what they do or where they're going and how.

Yes, lol, I do- that's what the bible says, "...and WHATEVER you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of Jesus Christ, giving thanks to God the Father through Him." (Somewhere in Colossians chapter three).

 

[FranC]

Are YOU serious? Christ established His church and it is to remain the same until He comes again. Do you follow a man-made doctrine? We must follow the bible only. God says, "They worship Me in vain, teaching as doctrine the commands of men."

Huh??

Are you aware of what the original church looked like and how it functioned?
Christians were persecuted. They were hunted down and killed. They had to meet secretly.
They sold their homes and pooled their money and lived all together.
They had to hide in tunnels and meet in people's homes to have Communion and share God's word.
They had to pray no one would find out.
They were looked upon as crazy people
And cannibals because they ate the body and blood

Check out the history of the early church.
I doubt you would have liked to be there.

Fran

 

[PurerInHeart]

Huh??

Are you aware of what the original church looked like and how it functioned?
Christians were persecuted. They were hunted down and killed. They had to meet secretly.
They sold their homes and pooled their money and lived all together.
They had to hide in tunnels and meet in people's homes to have Communion and share God's word.
They had to pray no one would find out.
They were looked upon as crazy people
And cannibals because they ate the body and blood

Check out the history of the early church.
I doubt you would have liked to be there.

Fran

They were in a situation, but it is the same church today. I've had church service in homes, in buildings, and in church buildings. Yes any congregation of Christ's church has the possibility of persecution- even to the point of imprisonment or death.

 

[FranC]

Every christian should ask themselves what would Jesus do? We are to take up our cross and follow Him. It's kinda hard to follow someone if you don't consider what they do or where they're going and how.

Yes, lol, I do- that's what the bible says, "...and WHATEVER you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of Jesus Christ, giving thanks to God the Father through Him." (Somewhere in Colossians chapter three).

God bless you for this PureinHeart.
I'm sure your intentions are good - but we all have our own walk with God and we should be mindful of that when speaking with different people.
Most here are strong Christians and you probably won't do much damage, but what if you meet a new Christian and tell them they can't have a nice car or expensive clothing? That sounds very legalistic. Legalism kills Spirituality.

2 Corinthians 3:6
"...for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."

Fran