Is Ultimate Release from Hell Possible?

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MadHermit

Junior Member
May 8, 2018
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#21
melach,
As expected you are jumping the gun. The current topic is Jesus' teaching about release from Hell. The relevant of your claim about Revelation will be refuted when the teaching of Revelation later becomes the thread's focus.
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
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#22
i will keep up with the topic and will read your take on the verse i quoted.

the current topic is Jesus' teaching about release from hell, but brother, where does Jesus teach such a thing? the parable of not being led out until you paid the last penny is not going to eradicate the clear teachings like Matthew 25:46, Revelation 14:11 and many others.

the only way out of hell is resurrection, only to be then cast along with death and hades [hell] into the lake of fire. this is what i believe the Messiah and his apostles taught.
 

Waggles

Senior Member
Sep 21, 2017
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#23
Mark chapter 9 (Weymouth)
42 "And whoever shall occasion the fall of one of these little ones who believe, he would be better off if, with a millstone round his neck, he were lying at the bottom of the sea.
43 If your hand should cause you to sin, cut it off: it would be better for you to enter into Life maimed, than remain in possession of both your hands and go away into Gehenna, into the fire which cannot be put out.
45 Or if your foot should cause you to sin, cut it off: it would be better for you to enter into Life crippled, than remain in possession of both your feet and be thrown into Gehenna.
47 Or if your eye should cause you to sin, tear it out. It would be better for you to enter into the Kingdom of God half-blind than remain in possession of two eyes and be thrown into Gehenna,
48 where their worm does not die and the fire does not go out.
(ESV)
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, [Gehenna]
48 ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’
 

Waggles

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Sep 21, 2017
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#24
Isiah 66: (ESV)
24 “And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”
 

selfdissolving

Well-known member
Jun 29, 2018
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#25
Notice how posters freeze like Bambi in the headlights before the texts I've posted and then duck them in favor of other more exclusive sounding texts, even though I've said that the relevance of these texts will be carefully considered after I dis\cuss the positive texts for release from Hell. When dogmatic souls find certain texts threatening, they stop thinking and simplstically cline to more familiar texts that support their misguided agenda. .
What kind of exclusive texts are we talking about here Duke.

Texts are always better when their exclusive.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
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#26
Hell - a simple mistake.

What do people live for? Themselves, pleasure, indulgencies, envy, suffering of others.
What happens when all of this is removed? No recognition, no pampering, no exaltation,
no domination, no winning just the truth about them and their existance.

A lot of people cannot cope with 1 day alone, by themselves.
Imagine an eternity of just this. This very situation sends some insane.

So meeting the ultimate being of love, purity, consistency, truth, strength, humbleness,
clarity, infinite beauty. All ones imperfections shown up, all the contradictions seen.

In this place, people will become ghosts, empty vessels without foundation and nothing
will stop them falling apart. There is literally no place for them to go, because nothing
hangs together.

So the mistake is that there is a place of rebellion and safety in fighting the King.
It is just self destruction, a house of sand descending on itself.

So one should fear total exposure and having to be totally consistent, with no place
to find safety. This is where the people of light dwell, not out of pride or boasting
or desire to prove anything, but because God has brought them and changed them to
be people of the Kingdom. So when people say there is like a comparison between
heaven and hell, there is none. It is the place of life and the place of emptiness and
just weeping with no end.
 

Waggles

Senior Member
Sep 21, 2017
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#27
Judgment Before the Great White Throne (ESV)
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.

12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.

13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.

14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Are there any scriptures that state how and when those thrown into the lake of fire come out?
 

MadHermit

Junior Member
May 8, 2018
388
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#30
Waggles: "Isaiah 66: (ESV) 24 “And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

No modern academic commentary on Isaiah interprets this verse as a reference to Gehenna or Hell. That's ;partly because there is not a single reference to Hell in the OT. In fact, the only clear OT evidence for a belief in life after death is found in Daniel 12:1-3. So Isaiah 66:24 does not imply eternal conscious postmortem suffering. Keep that in mind when you consider Jesus' secondary application of Isaiah's worm imagery in Mark 9:48.

Posthuman: "do you trust your human sense of judgement enough to judge what God can and cannot do? i don't.
i think that would be the apex of arrogance."

Well, an honest seeker must first assess whether biblical revelation is minimally moral and rationally credible. If the NT concept of Hell implies a morally monstrous God, then that is a good reason to dismiss the Bible as a compilation of myths and vindictive threats designed to justify a religion shaped by a fear-mongering cultural bias. Ah, but the NT can be defended from that legitimate scruple and I will continue to provide such a defense in my next planned post. So stay tuned.

Well. as expected no one here has directly come to terms with my exegesis of the Gospel texts that imply possible release from Gehenna or, for that matter, the contemporary rabbinic meaning of a postmortem Gehenna. so I'LL move on to a demonstration of how Peter embraces this more hopeful teaching by Jesus.
 

MadHermit

Junior Member
May 8, 2018
388
143
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#31
2. The possibility of ultimate release from Hades or Hell is implied by 3 NT texts that undermine the claim that ultimate salvation depends on a formal profession of faith in Christ in this earthly life. As famed Christian writer C. S. Lewis elegantly and succinctly put it: "The gates of Hell are locked from the inside."

(1) As Jesus' apostle. Peter understands well how Jesus teaches a potentially limited consignment to Hell. In 1 Peter 3:19 “prison” is an image of the abode of the evil dead from the time of Noah. This focus is due to Peter’s use of the Great Flood as an image of baptism. The assumption is that these evil dead can respond to Christ’s preaching and thus be redeemed:

“…He [Christ] went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison, who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah…(3:19)”

Some try to evade this implication by absurdly identifying “the spirits in prison” as the Nephilim. But this interpretation is precluded by the resumption of “the spirits of the dead” in the phrase “the Gospel was preached even to the dead” and the use of “spirit” in 4:6:

“…the Gospel was proclaimed even to the dead, so that, though they had been judged in the flesh, as everyone is judged, they might live in the spirit as God does.”

(2) Members of the original Corinthian church mourn the fact that deceased unrighteous family members have missed out on salvation. So, with Paul’s approval, they practice a ritual of proxy baptism for their unrighteous discarnate loved ones. Paul views this ritual as a small part of the process by which God will ultimately become “everything to everyone:”

“…so that God may be all in all (Greek: panta en pasin” =“everything to everyone”). Otherwise, what will those people do who receive baptism in behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf (1 Corinthians 15:28-29)?"

The Jewish background of such proxy baptism is a redemptive ritual performed by Judas Maccabaeus during a key battle against the Syrian Greeks. In 2 Maccabees 12:39-46 [a book in the Catholic OT), Judas and his soldiers find small idols in the clothing of slain Jewish freedom fighters and conclude that their deaths are punishments for idolatry. But then they pray for their salvation and finance a sin offering in their behalf:
“He [Judas Maccabaeus] also took up a collection…and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering …For if he had not expected that those who were fallen would rise from the dead, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead…Therefore, he made atonement for the dead, so that they might be delivered from their sin.”

(3) Paul teaches the possibility of salvation for pagans who have never heard the Gospel:

“To those who by patiently seeking to do good seek for glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life…When Gentiles who do not possess the Law do instinctively what the Law requires, these…are a Law to themselves. They show that what the Law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness (Romans 2:7, 14-15).”

Their lack of access to God’s written Torah allows them to be exempt from guilt through violation of that Law: “…sin is not reckoned when there is no law (Romans 5:13).” In their case ignorance can be a valid excuse: [Paul:] “God has overlooked the times of human ignorance, but now He commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30).” This teaching represents an application of Jesus’ principle that God judges us on the basis of how much spiritual light we have received: “From everyone to whom much has been given, much will be required (Luke 12:48).”
1 Reply
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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#32
(1) As Jesus' apostle. Peter understands well how Jesus teaches a potentially limited consignment to Hell. In 1 Peter 3:19 “prison” is an image of the abode of the evil dead from the time of Noah. This focus is due to Peter’s use of the Great Flood as an image of baptism. The assumption is that these evil dead can respond to Christ’s preaching and thus be redeemed:

“…He [Christ] went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison, who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah…(3:19)”
I posted this some time back, but will put it here too:

[quoting from commentary]

[Gaebelein on 1 Peter 3] "The chief question is: Did our Lord go to Hades in a disembodied state? In fact, all depends on the question of what is the true meaning of the sentence, “quickened by the Spirit.” Now, according to the interpretations of the men who teach that the Lord visited Hades, the spirits in prison, during the interval between His death and the morning of the third day, He descended into these regions while His dead body was still in the grave. Therefore, these teachers claim that His human spirit was quickened, which necessitates that the spirit which the dying Christ commended into the Father’s hands had also died. This is not only incorrect doctrine, but it is an unsound and evil doctrine. Was the holy humanity of our Lord, body, soul and spirit dead? A thousands times No! Only His body died; that is the only part of Him which could die. The text makes this clear: “He was put to death in flesh,” that is, His body. There could be no quickening of His spirit, for His spirit was alive. Furthermore, the word quickening, as we learn from Ephesians 1:20 and Ephesians 2:5-6, by comparing the two passages, applies to His physical resurrection, it is the quickening of His body. To teach that the Lord Jesus was made alive before His resurrection is unscriptural. The “quickened by the Spirit” means the raising up of His body. His human spirit needed no quickening; it was His body and only His body. And the Spirit who did the quickening is not His own spirit, that is, His human spirit, but the Holy Spirit. Romans 8:11 speaks of the Spirit as raising Jesus from among the dead.

"We have shown that it was an impossibility that Christ was in any way quickened while His body was not yet raised, hence a visit to Hades is positively excluded between His death and resurrection. There is only another alternative. If it is true that He descended into these regions, then it must have been after His resurrection. But that is equally untenable. The so-called “Apostle’s Creed” puts the descent between His death and resurrection and all the other theorists follow this view. We have shown what the passage does not mean. It cannot mean a visit of the disembodied Christ to Hades, for it speaks of the quickening by the Spirit, and that means His physical resurrection."

-- https://biblehub.com/commentaries/gaebelein/1_peter/3.htm
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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#33
^ EDIT: sorry, I grabbed the wrong section, so will put the one I had intended, here:

[quoting from commentary]

"What, then, does the passage mean? It is very simple after all. He preached by the Spirit, or in the Spirit, that is, the same Spirit who raised Him from among the dead, the Holy Spirit of life and power, to the spirits who are now in prison. But when the preaching occurred they were not in prison. And who were they? All the wicked dead for 4,000 years? The text makes it clear that they are a special class of people. They were living in the days of Noah. It is incomprehensible how some of these teachers, misinterpreting this passage, can teach that it includes all the lost, or angels which fell, or the righteous dead. The Spirit of God preached to them, that is, the Spirit who quickened the body of Christ, the same Spirit preached to the generation of unbelievers in the days of Noah. The time of the preaching, then, did not occur between the death and resurrection of Christ, but it took place in Noah’s day. Christ was not personally, or corporeally present, just as He is not present in person in this age when the gospel is preached; His Spirit is here.

"So was He present by His Spirit in the days of Noah. It is written: “My Spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years” (Genesis 6:3). His Spirit was then on the earth. In long-suffering God was waiting for one hundred and twenty years while the ark was preparing. His Spirit preached then. But He needed an instrument. The instrument was Noah; in him was the Spirit of Christ and as the preacher of righteousness (2Peter 2:5) he delivered the warning message of an impending judgment to those about him, who did not heed the message, passed on in disobedience, were swept away by the deluge and are now the spirits in prison. As the Spirit of Christ was in the prophets (1Peter 1:11) testifying beforehand of the suffering of Christ and the glory that should follow, so the Spirit of Christ preached through Noah. This is the meaning of this passage, and any other is faulty and unscriptural."

--Gaebelein, https://biblehub.com/commentaries/gaebelein/1_peter/3.htm

[end quoting; bold and underline mine]
 

Waggles

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#34
2. The possibility of ultimate release from Hades or Hell is implied by 3 NT texts that undermine the claim that ultimate salvation depends on a formal profession of faith in Christ in this earthly life.
But none of what you write of and cite refers to the judgement of eternal life or eternal damnation.
Those in the grave; in Sheol; in Hades: will rise up on the last day - all will stand before Christ Jesus and bend the knee and confess that Jesus is God and Lord of lords.
But ultimately there will be judgement unto eternal consequences or recompence for what a person has done & not done in their life.
This is different to what you are writing of as in the end hell shall give up all of its dead (spirits of the deceased).

The Final Judgment (ESV)
31 When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels
46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
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#35
I didnt say was my place to judge Im just saying what the bible says and asking you to think about it.
Ok?

Whatever conclusion you come up with you got to be happy about, ask God and He will answer you, the thing is as Jesus was dying on the cross their were two other people dying and being crucified at the same time, yet he only spoke to one of them, and its recorded for us that conversation. One believed and the other mocked. Is it anyones guess what happened to the one who mocked Jesus?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#36
Posthuman: "do you trust your human sense of judgement enough to judge what God can and cannot do? i don't.
i think that would be the apex of arrogance."

Well, an honest seeker must first assess whether biblical revelation is minimally moral and rationally credible. If the NT concept of Hell implies a morally monstrous God, then that is a good reason to dismiss the Bible as a compilation of myths and vindictive threats designed to justify a religion shaped by a fear-mongering cultural bias. Ah, but the NT can be defended from that legitimate scruple and I will continue to provide such a defense in my next planned post. So stay tuned.
just to clarify, are you saying that yes, you consider yourself both qualified and morally obligated to judge God?

and if you don't like what He says, you eisegete?
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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#37
Hell is not the lake of fire. Hell is the holding place of the dead
until the final judgement following the resurrection of all.
Hell is going to be thrown into the lake of fire.
Death is the last enemy to be abolished.
It does into the lake of fire also.


Jesus holds the keys to life and death :love:
This is what i believe from scriptures also..

The doctrine that people will be saved from the eternal Lake of Fire after they are cast into it on the day of the final judgement is just a ear tickling false doctrine.. Eternity is eternity, thats forever and ever..
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#38
Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

the term aionios, for ever and ever, means everlasting. the Lord said He gives the sheep 'eternal life'[aionios] and the goats eternal judgment[aionios].-Matthew 25:46

if we say the eternal ends for goats, then brethren, are we not obligated to say our eternal life ends as well? God forbid, may it never be! brethren we must be careful in the way we handle the Scriptures, lest we be found giving the nations a false sense of security. i plead to everyone who is reading this, today is the day of salvation, repent and believe the gospel, tomorrow is not promised to any of us.
I would disagree. Its not the eternal, that ends but the temporal. If we say the temporal ends for goats, then we are in agreement with God. Life ends for those who do not have the born again Spirit of Christ. They will never rise to new spirit life on the last day..

Hell is the living suffering or sacrifice that we suffer without Christ, (no daily sabbath rest ...as in give us today our daily bread. ) beginning the day one is born.... human kind goes forth telling lies. Its what lying creature do suffer the wage of sin continuing to fall short of the glory of God all the days of their life on earth. .

No relief or rest for those who do mix faith in what they do see or hear coming from God in respect to the temporal seen .

Two kinds of mercy. One a new heart, and eternal spirit that will be raised on the last day. And the other their corrupted flesh returns to the dust from where it was formed and the corrupted temporal spirit return to the father who gave it for a specific time period . God does not give mercy to one and the other must suffer forever and ever without end. That would make our God merciless. .

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Everyone who is reading this, today is the day of salvation, repent and believe the gospel, tomorrow is not promised to any of us.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#39
eternally grateful: "Lol So you want to teach and tell the world to go on eat drink and be merry, We can get out of hell (lake of fire) after we go there. We do not have to repent and receive the gift of eternal life in this lifetime

Why do Fundamentalist create a crude caricature of opposing positions to avoid the hard work of honest and open critical engagement?
Consignment to Hell is the most tragic fate possible, regardless of whether one's sojourn there is eternal. So to duck the issue and "eat, drink, and be merry" would be the ultimate folly. Please think more deeply and consider the case that will be laid out before you.

eternally grateful: "Yeah go ahead with that. I doubt God will look favorably on you when you try to explain to him why he has to let people out of hell who commited the unpardonable sin. Which jesus said will NEVER be forgiven, in this lifetime or the next."

I of course will consider the meaning of that text in detail when I have finished with the positive texts that support my case.
Its like our life on earth. Paul considered all his massive sufferings a momentary light affliction because HE KNEW it was only temporary.

Thats what your offering the world.. a temporary affliction

Your also offering them the opportunity to REJECT Christ, and eventually GET to HEAVEN.

The penalty of sin is death, Whoever dies in that state (spiritually dead) will REMAIN in that state,

God created a place just for the spiritually dead. Sadly he created it for sstan and his demons who left, but those of the human race who are ALSO left in that spiritually dead state will go there with them. Because there is no other place to go.
Hell is not the penalty of sin, It is where those who are DEAD because of the penalty of sin go.

Since at that time, there will be NO WAY to bring a perosn from spiritual death to life (its too late) There is NO WAY POSSIBLE they can be let out of hell.

Instead of tryign to fight funamentalism or whatever it is you hate (I am not a fundamentalist by the way) why do you not study the bible for once and see WHY you are mistaken?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#40
Isaiah 66: (ESV) 24 “And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

No modern academic commentary on Isaiah interprets this verse as a reference to Gehenna or Hell.
Ellicott does.
Benson does.
Barnes does.
Brown does.
Poole does.
Jarchi does.
Gill does.

How many I gotta look up for you?

But more importantly than anything else, Jesus does.
((Mark 9:44-46))