Is Universalsim in Opposition to the Bible?

[preacher4truth]

But preacher.

You said im wrong because God elected because of belief and all that.
But look at the verse it says elect according to FOREKNOWLEDGE of God?

how about it?

God doesn't elect because of belief. Just think about that, what you are suggesting. We only believe by the same power that resurrected Christ from the dead, Ephesians 1:19. This is not then some inherent ability to believe or use free will to believe.

Brother, foreknowledge does not state anywhere in Scripture that it is due to God seeing who would choose him. That would make salvation not a gift, but a reward. Think about it. I know these things are not easy, but we have to undo some of our thinking in order to see the glorious truth of the Gospel and his Sovereign grace.

 

[Sketch]

If we live long enough we all sin.. But there is a time of innocence when little ones do not have the knowledge of Good and Evil.. This was revealed in the OT during the time of Exodus when the Hebrews first refused to go into the promised land and God forced them to wander the wilderness for 40 years so that all the generation that had refused to go into the promised land would die in the wilderness.. The people then said that God was being unjust to their little ones who took no part in the rebellion.. Gods response to their protest was as follows:: I have Bolded the important statement::

Deuteronomy 1:
34 "And the LORD heard the voice of your words, and was wroth, and sware, saying, {35} Surely there shall not one of these men of this evil generation see that good land, which I sware to give unto your fathers, {36} Save Caleb the son of Jephunneh; he shall see it, and to him will I give the land that he hath trodden upon, and to his children, because he hath wholly followed the LORD. {37} Also the LORD was angry with me for your sakes, saying, Thou also shalt not go in thither. {38} But Joshua the son of Nun, which standeth before thee, he shall go in thither: encourage him: for he shall cause Israel to inherit it. {39} Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it. {40} But as for you, turn you, and take your journey into the wilderness by the way of the Red sea."

So God Himself declares that there are little ones who do not yet have the Knowledge of good and evil.. Before Adam and Eve obtained the knowledge of good and eviol from the tree of good and evil they where totally acceptable to God.. God declares His creation which included Adam and Eve Good.. They only became corrupt and in need of the atonement of Jesus After they came to the knowledge of good and evil..

Anyone born in Adam's race is born into sin. We are sinners at birth. At conception even. As I understand it.
Sin entered the world through one man. (Rom.5:12)

The children in the passage you quoted were innocent of the transgressions of the parents who were prohibited to entre the promised land.

 

[Hevosmies]

Did Moses have a relationship with God?
Abraham? (shall I continue?)
Did either of them know Jesus before they died?
Where did they end up?

Not biblical? Read it again.

Romans 2:14-15
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

They did know Jesus yes.

Jesus is God.

 

[Sketch]

It does not matter what alternate scenario you come up with in regard to what happened in regard to Cornelius.. He still had to accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ to be saved..

We read the account of Cornelius take close note of the Part i will Bold..

Acts 10
10 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian [a]Regiment, 2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave [b]alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always. 3 About [c]the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, “Cornelius!”4 And when he observed him, he was afraid, and said, “What is it, lord?”So he said to him, “Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God. 5 Now send men to Joppa, and send for Simon whose surname is Peter. 6 He is lodging with Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the sea. He will tell you what you must do.

So there was something Cornelius Had to do to be saved.. What did Peter bring to Cornelius and his household ??? The Gospel of the LORD Jesus Christ which Cornelius had to believe in and Trust to be saved..

Yes, that's how it turned out.
But I am asking about all the other Cornelius' out there that never hear the gospel?
The ones that "fear" God and are devout.

And what about the Faith chapter hall of fame? (Heb.11) How many are "Christians"? (none)

 

[Sketch]

They did know Jesus yes.

Jesus is God.

Now you arguing on my side. Thanks. lol

There we go. To have a relationship with God is to have a relationship with Jesus.
Is that not salvation?

John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

 

[dcontroversal]

That's why I said some may be surprised that their name is written in the book.

Is Moses in the book? Abraham? The Prophets? David?
Did any of them receive Jesus before they died?
What about those Christ preached to when he descended to the heart of the earth? Preaching in Hades?
Saved before they died, or after?

Why do you ask such foolish questions? The bible is clear and all those named above LOOKED FORWARD to the CROSS in FAITH and were obviously SAVED.....

Geesh........He did not preach in HADES as he told the thief clearly that they would be in Paradise, Abraham's BOSOM which was the holding area of the SAVED until Christ resurrected and took CAPTIVITY with HIM.......

O.T. SAINTS looked forward to the cross in faith-->MESSIAH/JESUS<--N.T. SAINTS look back to the cross in FAITH

BOTH were saved by FAITH

Therefore we conclude that ABRAHAM was JUSTIFIED by FAITH without the deeds/works of the law!

Can I ask a serious question....are you really interested in truth and spreading truth or just in being obstinate and causing division and or leading people astray?

Not being mouthy just asking.......!

 

[jaybird88]

John 14: 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

It means universalism is false.. Because universalism says there are. Other ways.

What is the correct way? "Through" Jesus means what exactly?

 

[jaybird88]

Romans 1.

Not hearing the name of Jesus is no excuse. The HS is sent to the whole world to convict them of sin righteousness and judgement

If someone is positive to his convictions and asks God for truth, God will go out of his way to send them the truth.

What's the point of sending a missionary to someone that already has the spirit? What's that person going to do that the spirit can't already do

 

[Sketch]

Therefore we conclude that ABRAHAM was JUSTIFIED by FAITH without the deeds/works of the law!

Can I ask a serious question....are you really interested in truth and spreading truth or just in being obstinate and causing division and or leading people astray?

Not being mouthy just asking.......!

There we go. Abraham is the father of faith. Salvation was brought forward from the OT.
Not through Moses, but through Abraham.

Just because you and I do not always agree is no reason to think I am against the truth. (which has many definitions, I suppose)
And I certainly do not want to cause division, or lead people astray. I am certainly no more obstinate than you. So...

And just to clear, I would never counsel anyone away from Christ claiming they can find mercy from God without him.
I am just saying that there may be cases where an individual has a saving relationship with God that doesn't fit our paradigm.
This does not in any way support Universalism. But addresses a larger question about God's final judgment.

 

[IsaiahX]

Interesting, so God isn't eternal or everlasting either. He's just been around for a long time.

Just applying your error consistently.

The word aionos can mean forever or age-long. However, we wouldn't assume that sin or death is everlasting as it is in opposition to God. Believing anything in opposition to God is eternal is dualism. We can assume God is eternal but sin is not.

 

[Lillywolf]

The verse I just provided (Romans 10:13) stated that any who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved. There is no reason to assume that promise does not apply to the afterlife.

This next verse supports that the wrath of God is for remedial purposes, not eternal punishment (Malachi 3:2).

I don't see it. Can you share how you think Malachi 3, not just verse 2, supports your belief ?

 

[dcontroversal]

The word aionos can mean forever or age-long. However, we wouldn't assume that sin or death is everlasting as it is in opposition to God. Believing anything in opposition to God is eternal is dualism. We can assume God is eternal but sin is not.

Tell me what the following verse states about what God does and then tell me how long it lasts....

New American Standard Bible
I know that everything God does will remain forever; there is nothing to add to it and there is nothing to take from it, for God has so worked that men should fear Him.

King James Bible
I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

 

[Endoscopy]

So, to answer the topic title question: Is Universalsim in Opposition to the Bible?

Yes and no.

Yes, because doctrinally, Universalism is in opposition to the Bible.
The doctrines of Universalism are not Bible-based. They are in fact in opposition.
Universalism is a response to the claim that there is only one way.
It stands as a contrary position to the doctrine of the Bible. Universalism is a social gospel.
A warm, fuzzy, feel-good rebuttal to the Bible message.

No, because need to leave room for God's judgment.
Not that there is any value in Universalism. But there is value in the mercy and compassion of God.
And his ability to know each person completely and to judge accordingly.

Those who have taken the hardline approach to this, need to consider the words
of the third scripture at the bottom of this post. Same measure.

Romans 12:19
Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord.

Romans 14:4
Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

Matthew 7:2
For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

Keep in mind the prophecy of the time of judgment. There will be those professing their works for Jesus. He replies "Begone, I never knew you." works doesn't save. Only grace by faith in Jesus saves. At that point those who have never placed their faith in Jesus will be condemned. This is the fatal flaw of universalism.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I smell an agenda here

if universalism was a choice, Jesus had never needed to step into our time zone

 

[Endoscopy]

I agree.
There is no salvation in Universalism.
And actually, Universalism is anti-biblical and anti-God.

But there is a broader issue here.
It is about the final judgment of individuals.
In each case, God has the option to show mercy, or to require justice.
We may be in for some surprises in that regard.

Even our own salvation depends on a relationship with God.
If someone has the relationship, even outside of biblical parameters,
who are we to say which way that might go?

Jesus already answered that question. Read my previous post.

 

[Endoscopy]

God doesn't elect because of belief. Just think about that, what you are suggesting. We only believe by the same power that resurrected Christ from the dead, Ephesians 1:19. This is not then some inherent ability to believe or use free will to believe.

Brother, foreknowledge does not state anywhere in Scripture that it is due to God seeing who would choose him. That would make salvation not a gift, but a reward. Think about it. I know these things are not easy, but we have to undo some of our thinking in order to see the glorious truth of the Gospel and his Sovereign grace.

This is the quinquarticular controversy. Calvinism vs Arminianism.

Quinquarticular Controversy
The diametrically opposed Calvinist and Armenian 5 points

Reformed/Calvinism
TULIP
1. Total depravity
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perserverance of the Saints

Armenianism
1. Free will or Human ability
2. Conditional election
3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
4. The Holy Spirit can be Effectually Resisted
5. Falling from Grace

For a deeper discussion of the differences go to these web sites,

https://www.gotquestions.org/Calvinism-vs-Arminianism.html

Arminianism vs Calvinism Controversial Passages
https://www.xenos.org/essays/calvinism-arminianism-controversial-passages

There are denominations adhering to Calvinism, Arminianism, and parts of each creating a spectrum of different views of these issues.

Calvinism Armenianism debate
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Calvinist–Arminian_debate

Biblical Defense of Calvinism
https://www.fivesolas.com/tulipscriptures.htm

Biblical Defense of Arminianism
http://www.evidenceunseen.com/theology/calvinism-versus-arminianism/biblical-defense-of-arminianism/

 

[Locutus]

Biblical Defense of Locutism

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locutism

 

[preacher4truth]

The word aionos can mean forever or age-long. However, we wouldn't assume that sin or death is everlasting as it is in opposition to God. Believing anything in opposition to God is eternal is dualism. We can assume God is eternal but sin is not.

All you're showing is you'll use a double or triple standard and assumptions to dress up your error. Heretics like you should be banned, but that's just my opinion.

Oh, I forgot to add, in your error, applied consistently, eternal life isn't really eternal. It's just for a long time. Then *zaaaaaapppp* it's over.

 

[Lillywolf]

I think that which fabricates identity as pastor of the word should be banned. Instead, the powers that be determine often enough they're to be an example in the practice of discernment among the saints on board. We know them to be not so, and by their word of mouth rotten fruit shows they are entirely false.

As many of us have noticed, there are thousands of denominations under the umbrella of Protestantism. All this started to occur after the Reformation. And with the history of cults in the world, Christian cults at that, we've pretty much realized the Bible can be used to sustain any fiction any creator of the latest belief wants to use it for. Does that mean it is God's truth? Of course not.

The words in scripture that tell us the sins of the world were taken upon Christ on the cross is part of what sustains Universalism. Even among Universalist Christians there are differences of opinion as to what sustains the belief.
When you encounter that which is hostile toward the denomination, does it make you wonder? How anyone could be angry, some even hate filled judging by their remarks when in conversation on the topic, that God so loved the world......that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have immortal life.

More than any of those other verses that have and can be applied to sustain Universalism, now wait, watch someone accuse me of being one, (I'm not), this verse is the most compelling as that which convinces the Universalist.

1 Timothy 4:10
For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.


John 12:32
"And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

Here's my opinion. Like others, it is like unto noses. Everyone has one, some are just more pronounced than others.


If you are a Universalist Christian and have accepted Christ as your savior, you have faith Jesus is savior of the world and you repented, are redeemed as a new creation in Christ, the holy spirit of the Father indwells you and guides you to all truth, as the scriptures say, and you were baptized by water and in the spirit, you're saved!
If you see the world and love the world enough to see God loving the world enough to have inspired Paul to write that letter to Timothy, so be it. Your belief doesn't save the world. Your belief, and what Jesus died to guarantee due to God's grace calling you to his son, is what saves you! And that my dear sister and brother is what matters.

The one's that hate on you for that don't.

 

[Deade]

I agree with everything except the provision made in the bolded.....those who come before GOD at the Great White Throne are lost....there is NO second chance....if they leave this world without confessing Christ their goose is cooked......

And yet this prophecy in Daniel suggest that not all in the second resurrection are condemned.

Dan. 12:2 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

Rev. 20:5 'But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.'

Rev. 20:11-13 "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."