It is not a sin to lie to do what is right - but is a sin when done to do what is wrong

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MyrtleTrees

Junior Member
Sep 5, 2014
437
145
43
#1
I believe the Bible reveals that there is both a right time to lie and a wrong time to lie. Here are some examples of situations in which it looks right to lie:
To save a life or lives. Think of when Rahab lied to protect the 2 spies who came to spy out Jericho. Think of when Elijah lied, when those (Syrians, I think) pursing his life, asked where "Elijah" was. Think of when Michael, David's wife, saved David's life, by putting an image in his bed. Think of the attempt of one of his sons to take over the kingdom - a time in which 2 of David's men were kept from being killed, by hiding in an empty well. Think of how the apostle Paul once escaped from persecutors, by being let out of the city - in a basket and via a window - I'm sure if anyone pursuing his life questioned that household about his whereabouts - they'd have been willing to lie about his whereabouts. Think of how Jesus said Lazarus was sleeping, when really - he was dead.
Here are some examples in which it was wrong to lie, since it was for the purpose of sin:
Think of Adam and Eve, who lied a number of times in the event in which they'd eaten from the forbidden tree. Think of Cain, who lied about the whereabouts of Abel, whom he'd murdered. Think of Herod, who told the wise men he was happy to hear the news of the birth of Jesus. Think of how lying about people in a damaging way - was forbidden by the 10 commandments. Think of how the Bible warns us against false prophets. Think of how the devil is said to be a liar - we can be absolutely certain all his purposes for lying are all evil and with wrong intentions.
 

Corban

Active member
Jun 11, 2020
482
205
43
69
#2
I believe the Bible reveals that there is both a right time to lie and a wrong time to lie. Here are some examples of situations in which it looks right to lie:
To save a life or lives. Think of when Rahab lied to protect the 2 spies who came to spy out Jericho. Think of when Elijah lied, when those (Syrians, I think) pursing his life, asked where "Elijah" was. Think of when Michael, David's wife, saved David's life, by putting an image in his bed. Think of the attempt of one of his sons to take over the kingdom - a time in which 2 of David's men were kept from being killed, by hiding in an empty well. Think of how the apostle Paul once escaped from persecutors, by being let out of the city - in a basket and via a window - I'm sure if anyone pursuing his life questioned that household about his whereabouts - they'd have been willing to lie about his whereabouts. Think of how Jesus said Lazarus was sleeping, when really - he was dead.
Here are some examples in which it was wrong to lie, since it was for the purpose of sin:
Think of Adam and Eve, who lied a number of times in the event in which they'd eaten from the forbidden tree. Think of Cain, who lied about the whereabouts of Abel, whom he'd murdered. Think of Herod, who told the wise men he was happy to hear the news of the birth of Jesus. Think of how lying about people in a damaging way - was forbidden by the 10 commandments. Think of how the Bible warns us against false prophets. Think of how the devil is said to be a liar - we can be absolutely certain all his purposes for lying are all evil and with wrong intentions.
Or, those who lied did what we all do - rely on human methods to achieve what God could have done by being the Master of circumstances. Haman (Book of Esther) is about to commit genocide. A lie might have saved the Jews, but God just caused insomnia in a king. But I don't want to play the hero. I sometimes "rearrange" the truth for instance if my wife's feelings are going to get bashed. But I would never claim a lie to be good. Expedient maybe ... Good ... well ....
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
3,965
1,660
113
#3
"Think of how Jesus said Lazarus was sleeping, when really - he was dead."
I don't believe that Jesus lied. Who knows how these things are seen by God. He can easily raise anyone from the dead so to Him it's like sleep, I think that the Bible calls death "sleep" in many places because of resurrection.
 

lenna

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2020
1,281
788
113
#4
Think of how Jesus said Lazarus was sleeping, when really - he was dead.

no

read the NT. the term sleeping is used for believers who have died in this life but are waiting for eternal life when they shall all be raised from the dead

are you trying to find an excuse to lie about something? ;)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
28,270
8,721
113
#5
"He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to Him all live"
 

MyrtleTrees

Junior Member
Sep 5, 2014
437
145
43
#6
no

read the NT. the term sleeping is used for believers who have died in this life but are waiting for eternal life when they shall all be raised from the dead

are you trying to find an excuse to lie about something? ;)
No I'm not at all looking for an excuse to lie about anything. I just mean that I can see a need for it in some cases, like when people have evil intentions against us or others - whom I think we should prayerfully try to protect. However if one thinks it is a sin to lie in all cases - though I can't see it the way they do - I do see that God wants us all to obey Him in all matters. So a person must obey his or her conscience, as Corrie Ten Boom's family did, if they feel it is wrong to lie in all cases and aren't able to see that it is ok in some cases.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
3,077
957
113
#7
I don't believe that Jesus lied. Who knows how these things are seen by God. He can easily raise anyone from the dead so to Him it's like sleep, I think that the Bible calls death "sleep" in many places because of resurrection.
The bible calls death sleep only in the OT because that is the way God saved those who used the sacrificial system as God asked them to--for the atonement of their sin. When Christ came that promise of salvation was completed and perfected so in the NT death is not spoken of as sleep any longer, but the man crucified with Christ would be with him that day.
 

lenna

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2020
1,281
788
113
#8
No I'm not at all looking for an excuse to lie about anything. I just mean that I can see a need for it in some cases, like when people have evil intentions against us or others - whom I think we should prayerfully try to protect. However if one thinks it is a sin to lie in all cases - though I can't see it the way they do - I do see that God wants us all to obey Him in all matters. So a person must obey his or her conscience, as Corrie Ten Boom's family did, if they feel it is wrong to lie in all cases and aren't able to see that it is ok in some cases.

oh did you know Corrie Ten Boom? I don't think so

I was obviously joking, which is why I put the little smiling winky face.
 

MyrtleTrees

Junior Member
Sep 5, 2014
437
145
43
#9
Or, those who lied did what we all do - rely on human methods to achieve what God could have done by being the Master of circumstances. Haman (Book of Esther) is about to commit genocide. A lie might have saved the Jews, but God just caused insomnia in a king. But I don't want to play the hero. I sometimes "rearrange" the truth for instance if my wife's feelings are going to get bashed. But I would never claim a lie to be good. Expedient maybe ... Good ... well ....
Many don't understand this concept, I think, in the scriptures. There's a huge difference between lying for the sake to do evil - and for the sake of doing what's right and good in a situation. And I have seen numbers of cases in the Bible in which righteous people lied for a good cause. But am also aware of cases where it was wrong to lie. It was wrong, for example - for Abraham to lie to Pharaoh, about Sarah being his sister. It's true she was his sister, but his saying this was for the purpose of hiding the fact that they were also husband and wife. He exposed her to dangers he was not right to expose her to in this case. But think of Jesus who told Martha that Lazarus was "sleeping." She and others thought He meant exactly that and no more! He wanted to hide the truth for the time being, but for a good, wholesome purpose - to teach them a more effective lesson about His ability to do miracles.

John 11:11-14

11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.

13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
KJV
 

MyrtleTrees

Junior Member
Sep 5, 2014
437
145
43
#10
oh did you know Corrie Ten Boom? I don't think so

I was obviously joking, which is why I put the little smiling winky face.
No, I didn't personally know Corrie Ten Boom. But my mom, when I was a teenager - read the story to my family during lunch times. I remember she felt it was wrong to lie about the whereabouts of the Jews that were hiding in their house. And so she obeyed her conscience, which is what we all should do, if we know no better about what is right or wrong as to what should be done, according to what the Bible says on that subject. It is a sin to disobey one's conscience. But my conscience doesn't tell me that it is a sin, and I sincerely see it that way, according to what I see in the scriptures on that subject. So for me, it is not a sin to lie, in the right circumstances. Though NEVER
 

MyrtleTrees

Junior Member
Sep 5, 2014
437
145
43
#11
I don't believe that Jesus lied. Who knows how these things are seen by God. He can easily raise anyone from the dead so to Him it's like sleep, I think that the Bible calls death "sleep" in many places because of resurrection.
But Martha and the others thought Jesus meant that Lazarus was only sleeping. So it was a lie. But for a good, righteous, wholesome purpose.

John 11:11-14

11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.

13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
KJV
 

MyrtleTrees

Junior Member
Sep 5, 2014
437
145
43
#12
Or, those who lied did what we all do - rely on human methods to achieve what God could have done by being the Master of circumstances. Haman (Book of Esther) is about to commit genocide. A lie might have saved the Jews, but God just caused insomnia in a king. But I don't want to play the hero. I sometimes "rearrange" the truth for instance if my wife's feelings are going to get bashed. But I would never claim a lie to be good. Expedient maybe ... Good ... well ....
A person must not act against their conscience. Many feel it is wrong to lie in all cases. But I see it to be otherwise, in the Bible. Think of how Jesus said Lazarus was sleeping, when really - he was dead. He later explained that He meant that Lazarus was dead. But at first, they all thought He meant that Lazarus had only been sleeping.

John 11:11-14

11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.

13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
KJV
 

soberxp

Senior Member
May 3, 2018
410
56
28
#13
but truth is that she really is his sister.
 

MyrtleTrees

Junior Member
Sep 5, 2014
437
145
43
#14
No, I didn't personally know Corrie Ten Boom. But my mom, when I was a teenager - read the story to my family during lunch times. I remember she felt it was wrong to lie about the whereabouts of the Jews that were hiding in their house. And so she obeyed her conscience, which is what we all should do, if we know no better about what is right or wrong as to what should be done, according to what the Bible says on that subject. It is a sin to disobey one's conscience. But my conscience doesn't tell me that it is a sin, and I sincerely see it that way, according to what I see in the scriptures on that subject. So for me, it is not a sin to lie, in the right circumstances. Though NEVER
The bible calls death sleep only in the OT because that is the way God saved those who used the sacrificial system as God asked them to--for the atonement of their sin. When Christ came that promise of salvation was completed and perfected so in the NT death is not spoken of as sleep any longer, but the man crucified with Christ would be with him that day.
But Jesus' friends hadn't known what He meant when He said Lazarus was sleeping. Not until He explained to them what He meant:

John 11:11-14

11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.

13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
KJV

Also, think of how Jesus purposely used parables when teaching the crowds of people, so that only those who sincerely sought for God - would be enabled to understand them. Parables are stories with hidden meanings. Jesus explained the parables to His disciples, but wouldn't explain them to the general crowds. Something similar today, is the word, "Jargon." Organisations have terms that those outside of their organisations don't understand. Also slang, which not all people can understand correctly.

Matt 13:34-35

34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
KJV
 

Corban

Active member
Jun 11, 2020
482
205
43
69
#15
Many don't understand this concept, I think, in the scriptures. There's a huge difference between lying for the sake to do evil - and for the sake of doing what's right and good in a situation. And I have seen numbers of cases in the Bible in which righteous people lied for a good cause. But am also aware of cases where it was wrong to lie. It was wrong, for example - for Abraham to lie to Pharaoh, about Sarah being his sister. It's true she was his sister, but his saying this was for the purpose of hiding the fact that they were also husband and wife. He exposed her to dangers he was not right to expose her to in this case. But think of Jesus who told Martha that Lazarus was "sleeping." She and others thought He meant exactly that and no more! He wanted to hide the truth for the time being, but for a good, wholesome purpose - to teach them a more effective lesson about His ability to do miracles.

John 11:11-14

11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.

13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
KJV
I agree with what you have said, but judge that Sarah was not in danger. Had the matter run its natural course, Sarha would have been wife of a king, Abraham would have been bestowed with gifts and a direct connection to the royal house, and Pharoah would have got a desired woman. The danger was to God. Once Sarah was "taken", God would not have been able to fulfill His Promise. Although He had not yet said it, His immutable council was that Sarah would carry the line of both Isaac and Jesus FROM Abraham - not an Egyptian. The attack is always on the "seed of the woman". Egyptians come from Ham (Ps.105:23 etc.). Ham's seed was cursed to serve. His line could never bring forth kings.

As to our Lord saying that Lazarus "slept", I judge that He did not lie in the slightest. He alone could use that term for death since He:
  1. had the power to lay down His own life AND take it up again (Jn.10:17-18)
  2. has the power to resurrect men (1st Cor.15:45)
  3. has power over death (Rev.1:18)
That is, since all men will be resurrected (1st Cot.15:22), God may use the term "sleep" - for they will wake. If there was no resurrection then we could discuss our Lord misleading us. But we have another bit of information. In John 11:14, "Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead", the word "plainly" does not imply a correction from what was false. Its meaning is that Jesus spoke with "boldness" or "bluntly" (Strong's Greek & Hebrew Dictionary). It would seem from this word that "asleep" is a true term designed to comfort. I judge that our Lord reveals death as sleep as a true reflection of the man's condition, and this is meant to be to our comfort.

Notwithstanding this, I see your point. My point was that IF ASKED, we must, at all times, be truthful. And if the truth is to cause hardship, we must leave this in God's hands. Needless to say, I myself get caught sometimes "adjusting the truth".
 

MyrtleTrees

Junior Member
Sep 5, 2014
437
145
43
#16
The bible calls death sleep only in the OT because that is the way God saved those who used the sacrificial system as God asked them to--for the atonement of their sin. When Christ came that promise of salvation was completed and perfected so in the NT death is not spoken of as sleep any longer, but the man crucified with Christ would be with him that day.
I know of a verse that uses "sleep" to mean "death" in the New Testament, too.

1 Cor 15:51-53

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
KJV


In Jesus' lifetime, He often said things in a way others didn't understand. Even to his disciples - though they usually learned what He meant - shortly after He said something that they incorrectly guessed the meaning of.

Ones at first thought Jesus meant Lazarus was actually just sleeping, when He said Lazarus was sleeping. So they plainly didn't understand what He meant at first.

John 11:11-14

11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.

13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
KJV


Also think of the story where Jesus told some hired mourners, that the girl who had died, was "sleeping." And think of how they laughed - and of course their reason for laughing, is they knew she was dead.

Matt 9:23-24

23 And when Jesus came into the ruler's house, and saw the minstrels and the people making a noise,

24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.
KJV
 

soberxp

Senior Member
May 3, 2018
410
56
28
#17
I think it's not about lying,
but about how bad the environment was at that time, so evil things would happen。I mean, Sodom, After God destroyed Sodom,It's only then that people begin to be good because of fear god.
 

MyrtleTrees

Junior Member
Sep 5, 2014
437
145
43
#18
I agree with what you have said, but judge that Sarah was not in danger. Had the matter run its natural course, Sarha would have been wife of a king, Abraham would have been bestowed with gifts and a direct connection to the royal house, and Pharoah would have got a desired woman. The danger was to God. Once Sarah was "taken", God would not have been able to fulfill His Promise. Although He had not yet said it, His immutable council was that Sarah would carry the line of both Isaac and Jesus FROM Abraham - not an Egyptian. The attack is always on the "seed of the woman". Egyptians come from Ham (Ps.105:23 etc.). Ham's seed was cursed to serve. His line could never bring forth kings.

As to our Lord saying that Lazarus "slept", I judge that He did not lie in the slightest. He alone could use that term for death since He:
  1. had the power to lay down His own life AND take it up again (Jn.10:17-18)
  2. has the power to resurrect men (1st Cor.15:45)
  3. has power over death (Rev.1:18)
That is, since all men will be resurrected (1st Cot.15:22), God may use the term "sleep" - for they will wake. If there was no resurrection then we could discuss our Lord misleading us. But we have another bit of information. In John 11:14, "Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead", the word "plainly" does not imply a correction from what was false. Its meaning is that Jesus spoke with "boldness" or "bluntly" (Strong's Greek & Hebrew Dictionary). It would seem from this word that "asleep" is a true term designed to comfort. I judge that our Lord reveals death as sleep as a true reflection of the man's condition, and this is meant to be to our comfort.

Notwithstanding this, I see your point. My point was that IF ASKED, we must, at all times, be truthful. And if the truth is to cause hardship, we must leave this in God's hands. Needless to say, I myself get caught sometimes "adjusting the truth".
No, they did not understand that He meant that Lazarus was dead. They believed at first, that He meant that Lazarus was just sleeping.

John 11:11-14

11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.

13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
KJV

And think on the story of Rahab hiding the 2 spies and how she was rewarded for it by having her life and the lives of her family saved when the walls of Jericho fell.

Josh 6:17

17 And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent.
KJV
 

soberxp

Senior Member
May 3, 2018
410
56
28
#19
come on, it's easy to understand it.
In The eyes of Jesus, he really sleep until that day resurrection.
 

Corban

Active member
Jun 11, 2020
482
205
43
69
#20
....

Also, think of how Jesus purposely used parables when teaching the crowds of people, so that only those who sincerely sought for God - would be enabled to understand them. Parables are stories with hidden meanings. Jesus explained the parables to His disciples, but wouldn't explain them to the general crowds. Something similar today, is the word, "Jargon." Organisations have terms that those outside of their organisations don't understand. Also slang, which not all people can understand correctly.

Matt 13:34-35

34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
KJV
A parable is not a lie, nor is keeping something secret illegal. A lie is when the truth is misrepresented, not when it is hidden. The crowd, made up of Jesus, His disciples, Jews and Samaritans all heard, for the Parables were to "those who have ears" - all men. But because of Christ's foreknowledge who would receive Him, His Father and His Word, He displayed the truth in a picture that saved writing a book. If I were to explain the way an aerofoil works, it would take some paragraphs. But a simple picture and the formula would teach you the main points in a minute. But I could, without changing the truth of the matter, draw the picture so that only those having done aerodynamics would realize what it was.

Every Parable contains a TRUTH - but it is only UNDERSTOOD by those to whom it is given.