It is not a sin to lie to do what is right - but is a sin when done to do what is wrong

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MyrtleTrees

Junior Member
Sep 5, 2014
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#41
Yes, you're right! I certainly agree! There are Christians who sincerely believe it is wrong to lie in ALL cases. The Bible says that God's people need to obey their consciences (James 4:17; Romans 14:23). So until they learn better - they must do as Corrie Ten Boom did - she refused to tell a lie in ALL situations. But it is better for God's people to learn - if possible - that it is not a sin to lie for a righteous cause. In fact, it is God's will to lie if need be - to do things like help save lives, for example. As in Hitler's Germany, as you mentioned.
 

MyrtleTrees

Junior Member
Sep 5, 2014
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#42
I see what you mean. However, i do believe that if we truly seek to obey God's law when he says do not lie, he will make a better way for us to do what we need that, at the same time, is in alignment with his laws and decrees. I think that lying always has a consequence. Whether we see it right away or not, it either hurts others, or encourages us to vary the authority of the word based on our circumstance or situation. I just thought as I am typing this about all the scripture that you quoted. I notice that especially in the cases were you say lying is okay in some situations, the bible does not say they are wrong. But it does not say they were right for doing it either. We do not know how God dealt with them because of their lying. I think that God is so faithful that he will provide a way so that when we hold his Word in high reverence in our lives, he will pave another way. A better way.
I agree a Christian must not sin against his conscience. If he thinks it is a sin to do something, he shouldn't do it! (James 4:17; Romans 14:23). However, if they are unaware that an action is not sin, it is wise and helpful, at times, to eventually learn more correctly on the subject. Especially in the case where people's lives are at stake, and need to be protected. Such as in Hitler's Germany period. He slaughtered huge numbers of innocent people.

I myself, feel I have seen in the scriptures, that there are cases in which it is a sin to lie, but also cases when it is not a sin to lie. It is always a sin to lie in order to commit sin. But it is not a sin to lie for righteous purposes that are in line with God's Word.

Jesus Himself, lied some:
He told Martha that Lazarus was sleeping. So she and others who heard what He'd said, thought He meant that Lazarus was just sleeping. It wasn't until Jesus explained that Lazarus was dead - that she realized He'd meant that Lazarus was dead!

John 11:11-14

11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.

13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
KJV

Also think of how Jesus told temple officials, that if they destroyed the temple, He would build it up again in 3 days. They thought He meant the temple they worshiped in. They didn't know He meant "his body."

John 2:19-21

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
KJV

And think of the fact that Jesus preached to the crowds in parables, for the purpose that they wouldn't understand them unless they sincerely sought God. But most of them weren't seeking God sincerely. John 6:26-29;

Matt 13:34

34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
KJV

Matt 13:13-14

13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
KJV
But Jesus did explain the meaning of the parables to His disciples.

Matt 13:10-11

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
KJV
 

MyrtleTrees

Junior Member
Sep 5, 2014
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#43
Thank you for this valuable exchange. If I have correctly read the postings you wrote following the one which I answered just before this one, I think that we are almost in agreement. Our Lord Jesus, divine and with divine foreknowledge of what He was saying about things that were yet to transpire, did not lie. But His statements could be misunderstood by men of darkened vision and fallen intellect, and our Lord knew that this would happen. We all have to decide how to judge this phenomena. But it is with great peril that we judge the Judge. Shall we not exercise our faith and say, as you have written above, God is infallible. It is men that try to drag God down to their level that get things hidden from them.

Go well, and thanks again for the exchange. You had some very good arguments.
Yes, we agree that Jesus never sinned. As you say, it is a complicated subject and Christians (even sincere ones) differ in their interpretations on this subject or on many other subjects of the Bible.

As you say, it's true that those who don't have God in their lives don't have the same ability to understand spiritual things from the Bible, as true Christians do.

1 Cor 2:14

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
KJV
Yes, we aren't to judge God ever! Who made us, and is all-wise, while our understanding of things is imperfect.
 

MyrtleTrees

Junior Member
Sep 5, 2014
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#44
Even a outright lie was considered righteousness such as when Rahab lied. It’s the secret motive of the heart God sees.
You're right! A person needs to be careful not to lie for wrong reasons that God doesn't approve of. But as you say - Rahab was approved of by God for her action of helping to protect the spies.

Heb 11:31

31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.
KJV

James 2:25

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
KJV
 

MyrtleTrees

Junior Member
Sep 5, 2014
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#45
For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
You're right! He is the God of the living! To me, that refers to all saints who have ever lived on earth, as being "alive." Their bodies are dead, but their spirits go to heaven.

Matt 22:31-32

31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
KJV
 
P

pottersclay

Guest
#46
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Then what are we to do with this scripture?
 

MyrtleTrees

Junior Member
Sep 5, 2014
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#47
This life is imperfect. Only in heaven will God's people live in a perfect environment - no sin, troubles or sorrow!

Luke 20:34-37

34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:

35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
KJV
 

MyrtleTrees

Junior Member
Sep 5, 2014
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#48
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Then what are we to do with this scripture?
I know that that passage makes it sound like those in the lake of fire and brimstone, will be dead. But it helps to compare the scriptures on the subject. There are scriptures that show that those who will be thrown into hell will be tormented forever. And there is no way to be tormented without being alive. So that makes it clear that they will be alive in hell and suffering there.

Luke 16:24

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
KJV

Matt 8:12

12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
KJV

Mark 9:43-44

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
KJV

In the Bible, a lot of symbolic terms are used. I think that may be what the word "death" is used for in that passage you mentioned, since the usual meaning for the word, "death" - is for a person to be truly dead - not able to know anything or feel anything. One dictionary online I found to show you meanings for the word, is this: https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/death/
 

MyrtleTrees

Junior Member
Sep 5, 2014
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#49
:) no to lie is wrong a sin period. You've taken things out of context. When they lied it was wrong a sin. And posting about Lazarus... Christ never lied. No one dies we as humans call it death/dead. This flesh came from the dust.. it goes back to the dust.. not you. Who you serve.. is where you go.

Anyway.. its not GOD telling you its not a sin to lie when its right... huh? How can one miss this. Its in what you said. Its not a sin to lie <--full stop! Thats the red flag. To follow this is opening a door to the enemy.
It is always wrong to choose to sin. But in this matter, sincere Christians sincerely interpret the scriptures differently on the subject. It is wrong to sin against one's conscience. So if a Christian errantly assumes something is a sin when it is not - then according to the Bible - he must abstain from doing that thing. It is far more important to be in obedience to God in our hearts, than to do what we might feel like doing in things. But he is better off if he can eventually understand more correctly on whatever things he has guessed incorrectly in assuming that doing the things is sin when the things in mind are not sin.

Jesus lied sometimes too - but for a righteous cause. Jesus never ever sinned, while we humans do. Here are a few examples of times when Jesus lied:

He told Martha that Lazarus was "sleeping.' So she and others thought He meant that Lazarus was simply alseep.. Until He explained to them that He meant that Lazarus was dead.

John 11:11-14

11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.

13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
KJV

Also think of how Jesus told the temple officials that if they destroyed the temple, He would rebuild it in 3 days. They thought He meant the actual temple in Jerusalem, but He really meant his body. I mean the fact that He would die and rise again in 3 days.

John 2:19-21

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
KJV
 

MyrtleTrees

Junior Member
Sep 5, 2014
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#50
John 8:31-32

31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
KJV
Yes, serving Jesus and being in obedience to Him in daily life - frees people from the power of sin!