It is possible for a Christian to lose their salvation.

know1 · Sep 3, 2014

I'm not finished, keep reading.
How do we believe in Jesus?
Jesus said, in Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Again, Jesus is the truth, He is the word of God and we are to believe in the truth, in the word of God. To believe in Jesus, we have to believe the word of God.

How do we receive the truth?
So in order for us to receive the Spirit of Truth, we have to believe the word of God is the truth and that God will do what He said He would do in His word.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised

Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
Then Jesus sanctified Himself, because He is the truth.

To receive Jesus, one must receive the truth. The Word of God or the gospel of Jesus Christ, IS Truth.
To receive the power of God, one must receive the gospel or word of God, who is Jesus.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
1Co 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rom 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

How do we receive this truth or the word of God in our hearts?
By believing the word that is written in the bible or the truth and in the God that wrote it. That God would do what He said He would. That being, that if you believe on Jesus and confess Him as lord, you will be saved.
So we receive Jesus, or rather a seed from and of Jesus, after His kind, in our hearts through faith in God's word.

How do we believe the word of God?
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
So we have to hear the truth/word of God in order for us to believe and agreeing with the gospel.
It is necessary to hear the gospel, that one might have knowledge and understanding of what Jesus accomplished for them on the cross, that they might have faith to believe in Him and on His name.
But what if you can't hear His word?

Again, this believing is NOT passive.
We have to do something in line with the believing.
James says the devils believe and tremble.
Believing is useless if you do nothing with it.
2Co 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;
I can believe that God will save me because I believe that Jesus is the Son of God, but nothing will happen until I act on that belief.
Believing is not faith if you do nothing with it, even as hoping is not the same as believing it is already done.
Believing also must be in and of the heart, not the head.
When you really and truly believe something in your heart, you will act on it.

What is faith?
Faith is putting action to what you believe and agree with.
To have faith in God, one must believe and agree with the truth or the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Without works, faith is only a belief.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works [of faith] is dead?
This is not the same works spoken of in Roman, where Paul says we are saved by grace and not of works. Those works he speaks of were of the law. They are called good work, but cannot save you.
James speaks of works of faith. Without corresponding works to what you believe, it is not faith, but it remains as believing only, for the faith is dead without the works.
If you don't believe it is already done when you act on the word or promises of God, it is not faith, you are still hoping.
Also, if you don't know if something is God's will, again, it is not faith, you are only hoping, and nothing will happen.
If you are believing God will heal you, or for your healing, or that He is going to heal you, then again, you are hoping, not believing.
Faith believes, says, and acts as though it is already done. Anything outside this is not faith, but hoping or wishful thinking.
It goes without saying that fear, anxiety or worry, timidity, and doubt are the reciprocal of faith.

How do we use this faith to receive Jesus, the Word of God?
According to Paul, we need to have faith to be saved or born again by acting on what we believe and receiving Jesus throuhg faith in and by the word of God.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of [good] works [of the law], lest any man should boast.

How do we act on this saving faith?
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
By believing the word of God that is written and acting on that word, which is confessing Him with your mouth vervally and believing it is already done when you confessed and received Him in your heart by faith as your personal lord and saviour, without anything else done, according to the authority and power of God's word, you are a new creature in Christ Jesus. At that moment, God took the stony heart out of your flesh and gave you a new and fresh heart in the old one's place and put His Spirit and another fresh spirit in you causing you become His child.

But Paul says we must speak God's word from the heart. Faith is of the heart, not the head. You can mentally believe in the head or with the mind, but if it is not in and of the heart, you will fail to truly believe it, or you will act in hope. Either way, nothing will happen, for it will not be of faith, for it must be of the heart.
1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
Again, this belief is not passive, or it is not of faith. We are not saved by believing only, but by faith from the heart in God and His Son or the word.

Kerry · Sep 3, 2014

When you reject the cross you lose your salvation Period.

know1 · Sep 3, 2014

Re: How Many Threads On the Same Subject?

Still not done, but this is the last one, though I have more.
The bible says we are born again BY BELIEVING AND RECEIVING by faith, THE WORD OF GOD, which is truth.
We are born again by the word of God.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

When we agree with and except the Word of God, Jesus and His word ( His flesh and blood, respectively) will abide in us and we will abide in Him, via the Holy Ghost. We eat His flesh and drink His blood by believing and accepting the truth, which again, is God's word, which is Jesus.
Amo 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?
The implied answer is, no.
Joh 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him [rather His words] ye believe not.
Joh 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
Again, note the word, "if", you keep His sayings, which is His words, then you will never see death. So you need to keep the word of God or the truth, in order to keep and secure your salvation. Which goes without saying, that if you don't keep His sayings, which again is His word or promises, then you will see death. This has nothing to do with works, neither of the law or of faith, but everything to do with believing and keeping in your heart what God said in His word as truth.
If we can receive salvation by believing, agreeing with, and receiving the truth in our hearts, then we can lose our salvation by doubting, disagreeing with, and rejecting the truth, or by believing a lie, which is not of God's word?
We need to keep in mind that the power of God IS in His word, which again is truth, and it is backed by the Spirit of God which is of and from Christ. If we receive the Spirit of God by believing, agreeing with, and receiving the words of Christ, then it stands to reason, that if we believe, agree with, and receive the lies of the devil, we will receive in our hearts, a spirit from the devil.
It also stands to reason, that if we reject the truth of God's word, by doubting, we reject Christ.
Even as Jesus told the disciple that they could retain or remit sins, which are offenses, we can do likewise with the truth.

Remit:
something remitted: something sent to another person or authority for consideration, to send back.

Retain:
1. To hold or keep in possession; not to lose or part with or dismiss.

If we can do this with the sins of others, then the same holds true concerning the word of God or a lie of the devil. We can hold on to or keep the truth of God's word or the lies of the devil, or we can let go of or send back the same.
According to the word of God, we become like the spirit that is in us. The kind or type of spirit that is in us will depend entirely upon the words we believe and receive.

What can happen to the seed/offspring/word of God.
Mar 4:5 And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth:
Mar 4:6 But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.
Mar 4:16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
Mar 4:17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended [and fall away].
According to the sowing of the seed parable, it is possible for the seed, also known as the offspring or word of God, that was planned in the heart of a person, to be removed, wither and die, and be choked in the heart of any person.
The seed that was planted in the ones who had a stony heart, believed then fell away because the word did not have much earth and withered then died.
That means that they already received the truth of God's word, but when trials or temptations came, such as sickness or disease, or even temporary death, they were offended and rejected the seed or word of God, then the word withered and died, and they fell away, possibly from Christ.
The law of Genesis says, every plant produces seed after its own kind. So it is with the words we receive. If we receive the words of God, we will receive seed after God's kind in our hearts. If we receive the lies of the devil, we will reveive seed after the devil's kind. Again, the seed is the offspring of the plant in which it came from, and cannot produce fruit contrary to its kind. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, neither can a bad or evil tree produce good fruit.

The word of God abides in the heart, where the faith and love of God is and comes from or out of.
Mar 4:15 ...Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

How is the word taken out of the heart of the believer?
If the word of God is truth, which it is, then it stands to reason that if we received God's word by believing what He said which is truth, then the devil has to get us to reject it before it gets in the heart or repace it with a lie of his own, to take it out.
It is possible for God to blind not only the lost, but the believers as well.
2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

If a believer's heart has been hardened, through a lie of the devil, then he can prevent them from even seeing or perceiving the truth, even more, from hearing and understanding it.
For example, I would not listen to my mother when I was a teenager because my thought was that she doesn't understand. So I didn't even listen. I rejected her coucil even before I heard it.
Same with the kind of people who have a history that is biased, bent, or leans in one direction only because of the church they love and attend believes and teaches that way or doctrine.

So, in short, yes, I believe it is possible for a Christian to lose their salvation by rejecting the truth.

Kerry · Sep 3, 2014

Re: How Many Threads On the Same Subject?

know1 said:

Still not done, but this is the last one, though I have more.
The bible says we are born again BY BELIEVING AND RECEIVING by faith, THE WORD OF GOD, which is truth.
We are born again by the word of God.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

When we agree with and except the Word of God, Jesus and His word ( His flesh and blood, respectively) will abide in us and we will abide in Him, via the Holy Ghost. We eat His flesh and drink His blood by believing and accepting the truth, which again, is God's word, which is Jesus.
Amo 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?
The implied answer is, no.
Joh 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him [rather His words] ye believe not.
Joh 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
Again, note the word, "if", you keep His sayings, which is His words, then you will never see death. So you need to keep the word of God or the truth, in order to keep and secure your salvation. Which goes without saying, that if you don't keep His sayings, which again is His word or promises, then you will see death. This has nothing to do with works, neither of the law or of faith, but everything to do with believing and keeping in your heart what God said in His word as truth.
If we can receive salvation by believing, agreeing with, and receiving the truth in our hearts, then we can lose our salvation by doubting, disagreeing with, and rejecting the truth, or by believing a lie, which is not of God's word?
We need to keep in mind that the power of God IS in His word, which again is truth, and it is backed by the Spirit of God which is of and from Christ. If we receive the Spirit of God by believing, agreeing with, and receiving the words of Christ, then it stands to reason, that if we believe, agree with, and receive the lies of the devil, we will receive in our hearts, a spirit from the devil.
It also stands to reason, that if we reject the truth of God's word, by doubting, we reject Christ.
Even as Jesus told the disciple that they could retain or remit sins, which are offenses, we can do likewise with the truth.

Remit:
something remitted: something sent to another person or authority for consideration, to send back.

Retain:
1. To hold or keep in possession; not to lose or part with or dismiss.

If we can do this with the sins of others, then the same holds true concerning the word of God or a lie of the devil. We can hold on to or keep the truth of God's word or the lies of the devil, or we can let go of or send back the same.
According to the word of God, we become like the spirit that is in us. The kind or type of spirit that is in us will depend entirely upon the words we believe and receive.

What can happen to the seed/offspring/word of God.
Mar 4:5 And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth:
Mar 4:6 But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.
Mar 4:16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
Mar 4:17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended [and fall away].
According to the sowing of the seed parable, it is possible for the seed, also known as the offspring or word of God, that was planned in the heart of a person, to be removed, wither and die, and be choked in the heart of any person.
The seed that was planted in the ones who had a stony heart, believed then fell away because the word did not have much earth and withered then died.
That means that they already received the truth of God's word, but when trials or temptations came, such as sickness or disease, or even temporary death, they were offended and rejected the seed or word of God, then the word withered and died, and they fell away, possibly from Christ.
The law of Genesis says, every plant produces seed after its own kind. So it is with the words we receive. If we receive the words of God, we will receive seed after God's kind in our hearts. If we receive the lies of the devil, we will reveive seed after the devil's kind. Again, the seed is the offspring of the plant in which it came from, and cannot produce fruit contrary to its kind. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, neither can a bad or evil tree produce good fruit.

The word of God abides in the heart, where the faith and love of God is and comes from or out of.
Mar 4:15 ...Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

How is the word taken out of the heart of the believer?
If the word of God is truth, which it is, then it stands to reason that if we received God's word by believing what He said which is truth, then the devil has to get us to reject it before it gets in the heart or repace it with a lie of his own, to take it out.
It is possible for God to blind not only the lost, but the believers as well.
2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

If a believer's heart has been hardened, through a lie of the devil, then he can prevent them from even seeing or perceiving the truth, even more, from hearing and understanding it.
For example, I would not listen to my mother when I was a teenager because my thought was that she doesn't understand. So I didn't even listen. I rejected her coucil even before I heard it.
Same with the kind of people who have a history that is biased, bent, or leans in one direction only because of the church they love and attend believes and teaches that way or doctrine.

So, in short, yes, I believe it is possible for a Christian to lose their salvation by rejecting the truth.

Yes, but it is rejecting the work of the cross and having faith in your own works.

know1 · Sep 3, 2014

Kerry said:

The bible has much to say about keeping God's word and doing them as in two separate things.
Lev 20:8 And ye shall keep my statutes, and do them: I am the LORD which sanctify you.
The word, keep, is to be done in and with the heart, the doing is to be done with the physical mind and body.
Keep, as in, hold on to them like someone holds a grudge or an offense.

Atwood · Sep 3, 2014

LOSE SALVATION is not even a Biblical Expression

LOSE SALVATION never occurs in the Bible.

The below does:

2 Corinthians 1:22
And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

know1 · Sep 3, 2014

Re: How Many Threads On the Same Subject?

Kerry said:

No, this has nothing to do with your good works or our own works. It has to do with keeping or rejecting the truth of God's word. God's word promises if you believe in the work of the cross you will be saved, basically. If you reject the truth of that promise, you in effect reject the word of God, thereby rejecting Christ, for Jesus is the word of God.

know1 · Sep 3, 2014

Re: LOSE SALVATION is not even a Biblical Expression

Atwood said:

Sir would you be so kind as to respond to the subject in which I wrote.
The subject and topic of this thread is about reject the truth of God's word. That you can reject the truth, thereby reject salvation.

mailmandan · Sep 3, 2014

newbirth said:

Pollutions/Defilements (Strongs #3393) ("pollutions", "filthy things", "contaminations", "world's filth") describes the state of being tainted or stained by evil and refers to impurity, impure, tainted, defilement, foulness or pollution.

Pollutions/Defilement refers to what is on the outside (2 Peter 2:20). But genuine believers have escaped the corruption Strongs #5356 (different Greek word) that is in the world through lust (2 Peter 1:4). Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside. True believers have received a new nature, a divine nature, and they have new and different appetites and desires. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20.

Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. For it to be of any spiritual value, there must be a heart submission to that knowledge.

Where did it say they "followed" the way of righteousness? 2 Peter 2:21 - For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. They knew what was right and holy, but they deliberately chose to reject it. They had knowledge of salvation, but they lacked that true saving experience with the Lord. Just like in Hebrews 10:39, they had the knowledge of the truth (vs. 26) but chose to draw back to perdition and did not believe to the saving of the soul. They follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned (vs. 2).

nowyouseem033 · Sep 3, 2014

Okay.
There is more scriptural support that claim that salvation cannot be lost and that God eternally secures those that are saved and his.

2 Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore if anyone is in Christ he is a new creature, the old has gone the new has come".
(If salvation can be lost, then the new creature that you are could be reversed and cancelled)

1 Peter 1:18-19 "redeemed"
The word redeemed refers to a purchase being made, a price being paid. For a Christian to lose salvation, God himself would have to revoke his purchase that he paid for with the precious blood of Christ.

Romans 5:1 "justify"
To justify means to declare righteous. All those who receive Jesus Christ as Saviour are declared righteous by God. For a Christian to lose salvation, God would have to go back on HIS WORD and undeclare what he had previously declared. (YEAH RIGHT)

John 3:16
Eternal life is a promise of eternity forever in heaven with God. God promises believe and you will have eternal life. For a Christian to lose salvation, eternal life would have to be taken away. If a Christian is promised to live forever how then can God break his promise by taking away eternal life.

So to sum it up for you my brother:

A Christian cannot be unnewly created, Redemption cannot be undone, eternal life cannot be lost and still be considered eternal, and salvation cannot be reversed.

Jesus said "It is finished" meaning he paid for your past sins present sins and future sins.
Complete meaning final.
To say salvation can be lost is to say that Christ only died for your past sins and present sins but not your future sins.
Which means Christ should of said "It is Half finished" LOL

"What began in the spirit cannot be COMPLETED by FLESH"

Romans 8:38-39
John 10:28-29
Jude 24-25

Salvation is sealed.
I will say that you can lose sanctification to some degree but never salvation.

some philosophical points:

If it is God who saves you, then it is God who keeps you.
If it is on you to maintain your salvation then you are dependant on yourself to keep your salvation. (wheres the faith in that)

Salvation is of the Lord.

The question isn't "Can I lose my Salvation" because this statement presumes that its by your ability that gets you saved.
HOW SO YOU ASK???? simple... "Can I" refers to your ability.. hint hint works

The question should be this. "Can GOD lose his child"
Simple answer NO!!

The story of the sheep and the shepherd is great comfort to us all.
"and if one strays will not the shepherd leave the 99 and go after the 1, so that he loses NONE"
Notice a sheep is straying but it is GOD who goes after that sheep not you....
and perhaps the best and most encouraging thing about ONCE saved always saved and this story about the sheep is that

You may lose a relationship with him (temporary), but he will never lose a relationship with you (eternally secured)

mailmandan · Sep 3, 2014

kennethcadwell said:

Escaping the pollutions/defilements Strong's #3356 of the world is not the same as escaping the corruption (Strong's #5356) (different Greek word) that is in the world through lust. Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 mentions nothing about them being partakers of the divine nature, as mentioned in 2 peter 1:4.

Receiving the word with joy (emotional response) and believing (in a shallow way) does not result in salvation. Even though this shallow ground hearer is said to have "believed," yet he is never said to have been "saved." How do we know that the shallow ground hearer was never actually "saved?" First, his heart condition is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was "not good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. People who "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root.." Problem from the start. Temporary shallow belief that was not firmly rooted or established from the start "has no root" represents rocky soil. Then we see the results of this. Temporary shallow belief, no root, lacks moisture, no fruit, withers away.

John has portrayed people as "believing" who are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of genuine or consummated belief resulting in salvation." See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature); John 8:31,40,45-46 (where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin [v. 34], indifferent to Jesus’ word [v. 37], children of the devil [v. 44], liars [v. 55], and guilty of mob tactics and attempted murder of the one they have professed to believe in (v. 59). After Jesus’ teaching we read in 6:60 that “many of his disciples . . . said, ‘This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?’” These are the very so called "disciples" who Jesus says “do not believe” (vs. 64).

In regards to the thorny soil, the word was choked out before reaching it's desired goal, making it [unfruitful]". The word is choked and therefore does not produce a renewed spiritual life in the person; "the anxieties of the age and the pleasures of wealth chokes the message. The worries of life and the delusions of wealth have the effect of stifling the word/gospel, such that the person does not bear the fruit of salvation. The thorny ground hearer was not fruitful but later became unfruitful, as some argue. Put a stop to the growth of the word and it gives no fruit (Bible in Basic English) is not the same thing as saying, "gives fruit but then later stops producing fruit." The potential to eventually produce fruit was there, but the word was choked out before reaching it's desired goal. It (the seed, the word) became unfruitful (produces nothing, proves unfruitful, does not produce fruit, yields nothing), because the growth of the word was choked, not because it was previously fruitful. In the Complete Jewish Bible we read, Now the seed sown among thorns stands for someone who hears the message, but it is choked by the worries of the world and the deceitful glamor of wealth, so that it produces nothing. Nothing amounts to nothing and nothing was mentioned about it ever producing something. I can't find one translation of the Bible which states that the seed which fell on the thorny ground actually produced a crop (fruit) but then later stopped producing fruit.

In contrast, we read in Matthew 13:23 - "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who INDEED BEARS FRUIT and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty." If the seed that fell on the thorny ground produced fruit, where is it? Only the 4th soil produced crops of any size. I suppose the question still remains, "can this forth soil eventually become fruitless?" I have to conclude that if this were possible, why didn't Christ include such a scenario before concluding? There is mention of a difference in the size of the crops, but no consequences or warnings are given to the lesser producers. Only the 4th soil was referred to as "good ground" and produced a crop (fruit) and there is NO MENTION OF CHOKING OR WITHERING THEREAFTER.

It says NO root. Also, lacks moisture and no fruit. You call that saving belief that is rooted in Christ? Not ALL belief is saving belief (James 2:19; John 8:31).

What does falling away to false doctrines and being deceived demonstrate about their profession of faith? This happens to those whose belief/faith is not firmly rooted and established from the start. That's the problem.

Having saving belief in Jesus yet refusing to follows His teachings is an oxymoron. John 10:27 - My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. The sheep are genuine believers. The goats are not. Their actions in Matthew 25 demonstrate this.

kennethcadwell · Sep 3, 2014

nowyouseem033 said:

If this understanding of yours and some others of scripture be true, which those scriptures do not say this can not be undone by us. Then you do just like others, and do away with the scriptures from our Lord Jesus that says some will be deceived and fall away, do to trails and tribulations in life fall away, and then the scriptures from the apostles that support and back up what our Lord said.

Not all the falling away scriptures can be explained away as lose of rewards.

Another scripture that those who believe salvation can not be lost try to explain away, or not listen to is;

Romans 11:19-22
Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

know1 · Sep 4, 2014

nowyouseem033 said:

Your first statement sir is of course, a biased, fabricated, and unfounded proclamation.
Aside from the fact that not one person has contested with scriptural proof showing that what I wrote was contrary to the truth or thereby making it false, have you read and understood the parable in Mt 18:21 - 35?
Mat 18:24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
Mat 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
Mat 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
This parable is to the Christian. Showing how great a debt God forgave you. Too great for you to ever pay back.
The debt that the servants lord forgave is symbolic of offenses or sins.
Again, this parable is symbolic of Christ forgiving and saving the servant, by forgiving that huge debt. In short, they were born again. This could not possibly be directed at any other person, but to them who would receive forgiveness of their sins.
Mat 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Mat 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
What happened to that Christian when he failed to forgive his fellow servant?
That debt that his lord forgave was now back on the books, and his lord delivered him to the tormentors or torturers or demons till he should pay back everything that was due to his Lord.
In short, the guy lost his salvation.

mailmandan · Sep 4, 2014

Kerry said:

Hebrews 10:39 - But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition. Please show me the words "lose your salvation" in scripture.

newbirth · Sep 4, 2014

mailmandan said:

To show how you lack understanding ...the reference is ....The dog is turned to his own vomit again; where did the vomit come from ...inside the dog.....
the next reference..... the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire....the sow was wash was she not clean? she went back...one cannot turn from the commandment if they were not obeying it....Where does the scripture say saving experience or saving experience...your words confirm one can lose their salvation...I put it in red
They had the knowledge of the truth ..they had Christ...
Colossians 3:10
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

mailmandan · Sep 4, 2014

newbirth said:

"A dog returns... A sow...goes back." In both cases the nature of the animal is not changed. The dog returns to his vomit and the sow returns to the mud because by nature they are still a dog and sow, not a sheep. The change was merely cosmetic. Peter did not mention that those who escaped the "pollutions of the world" have become "partakers of the divine nature," (as we read in 2 Peter 1:4) or "born again" or "saved." Pollutions/Defilement refers to what is on the outside (2 Peter 2:20). But genuine believers have escaped the corruption on the inside that is in the world through lust (2 Peter 1:4).

Only on the outside. Again, corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside. Genuine believers have received a new nature, a divine nature, and they have new and different appetites and desires. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20.

For it would have been better for them not to have known (nothing mentioned about them obeying it) the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. It was delivered and they knew the way of righteousness, but chose to reject it. Nothing is mentioned about them obeying the way of righteousness or being partakers of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4), born again or saved. That is your assumption.

Where does scripture say "lose their salvation?" My words confirm no such thing about losing salvation.

Having the knowledge of the truth does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. For it to be of any spiritual value, there must be a heart submission to that knowledge. Peter said they had the knowledge of Christ, but he did not say they had Christ, were born again or saved. Go back and compare 2 Peter 2:20 with 2 Peter 1:4.

Where did Peter mention this in 2 Peter 2:20?

There is a difference between escaping the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of Christ and coming unto the knowledge of the truth and being saved, as we saw in 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature," having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. Once again, it's not enough to have this knowledge, there must be a heart submission to this knowledge. Returning to the vomit and the mire is not heart submission but is turning away. Once we receive the knowledge of the truth, we are at a crossroad. We can either choose to draw back to perdition or believe to the saving of the soul, as in Hebrews 10:39.

know1 · Sep 4, 2014

newbirth said:

How is your new man renewed in knowledge or even come tho the acknowledging of the truth, when you keep rejecting what I say?

I'm not being serious with that, I was just having fun.
Seriously though, don't we think this inwardly to some degree? We all believe we know the truth to some extent, even calling the person with the apposing doctrine, of the devil. I know I've done that. I still question many.
So how do we know who is right and who is not?
Also, those who are wrong, are they wolves in sheep's clothing, or just ignorant?

needhope · Sep 4, 2014

Don't know how to use this tool ..but I do need help

know1 · Sep 4, 2014

Again, the subject of this thread is about believing, agreeing with, and receiving the truth of God's word in order for them to be saved.
On that note, I have a question about what happened to Saul, the first king of Israel.
1Sa 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
1Sa 15:24 And Saul said unto Samuel, I have sinned: for I have transgressed the commandment of the LORD, and thy words: because I feared the people, and obeyed their voice.
1Sa 15:25 Now therefore, I pray thee, pardon my sin, and turn again with me, that I may worship the LORD.
1Sa 15:26 And Samuel said unto Saul, I will not return with thee: for thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, and the LORD hath rejected thee from being king over Israel.
I know Saul was not born again as we, but much of the old is a type of the new.
If we reject the truth of God's word, like the baptist minister I mentioned earlier, who claims he died and only saw blackness, and so turned atheist, do they lose their salvation?
Again, if you reject the truth of God's word, you reject Christ.
So if God took away the kingdom from Saul because he disobeyed the word of God, thereby rejecting it, will He or can He do the same concerning our salvation?

know1 · Sep 4, 2014

needhope said:

Come again friend? What's that you're saying? Please expound.

It is possible for a Christian to lose their salvation.

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