It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

[Atwood]

I change nothing. Try believing God's Word.
Try trusting Christ as Savior instead of as "chance-giver"

Why don't you believe that He shall save His people from their sins?
Is it because you are not one of His people?

I am the door of the sheep. All that came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door; by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and go out, and shall find pasture. The thief cometh not, but that he may steal, and kill, and destroy: I came that they may have life, and may have it abundantly. I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd layeth down his life for the sheep. He that is a hireling, and not a shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, beholdeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth, and the wolf snatcheth them, and scattereth them: he fleeth because he is a hireling, and careth not for the sheep. I am the good shepherd; and I know mine own, and mine own know me, even as the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. . . .

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep.
My sheep

1) hear my voice, and
2) I know them, and
3) they follow me:
and [ not if the preceding ]
4) I give to them eternal life; and
5) they shall never perish, and
6) no one shall snatch them out of my hand.
My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.


We are connecting as the Bible connects -- no conditional connections were there are none.

The sheepyou can't change my sheep to "the sheep")

You quibble. The sheep refers to the sheep in the passage, who are "my sheep." I can't call them "my sheep," because they are not my sheep, but Christ's sheep. But if you want to quibble "τὰ πρόβατα τὰ ἐμὰ" are literally "the sheep the mine." So "the sheep" is in the passage.

[SUP]

26

[/SUP]

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

(here is a requirement to be a sheep"believe" you don't believe you are not a sheep)

Of course you become a sheep by believing. And when will you believe in Him as your Savior, instead of chance-giver?

If you can deduce from this, those who believe, hear and follow he gives them eternal life...we can move on...

You infer a causal relationship where none is implied. The sheep hear and follow. Also He gives them eternal life. There is no hint of a condition, but rather a fact. If you are a sheep he gives you eternal life. So when will you trust Him, NewB?

The text is clear. There is one condition to becoming a sheep. If you are a sheep, then you recognize Christ's voice & you follow. Also He gives you eternal life. It is AND, not if.

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep.
My sheep

1) hear my voice, and
2) I know them, and
3) they follow me:
and [ not if the preceding ]
4) I give to them eternal life; and
5) they shall never perish, and
6) no one shall snatch them out of my hand.
My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

We are connecting as the Bible connects -- no conditional connections were there are none.

 

[Alligator]

It's funny watching you try to worm your way out of this. It is a perfect example of free will whether
you like it or not. Your excuses get worse and worse. Give them up.

as far as the three scriptures you listed, I have refuted them but as usual you just ignore it.

Alligator, your saying so proves nothing. We may contrast your unbelief with:

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save his people from their sins.

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

He Who began a good work in you will complete it.

QED

Don't talk to me about my unbelief. You don't know me, you can't read my mind , and you can't read my heart. You should spend more time worrying about yourself and your false teachings. And by the way, you need to work on your arrogance too.

 

[Atwood]

No one is bearing "false witness". I never said that you were a universalist. I simply stated that to remove faith as the prerequisite places one dangerously close to being one.

My posts are on topic. I simply pointed out a major flaw in the doctrine of unconditional eternal security (ie, once saved always saved) by using the o.p. as prime example of that flaw: placing conditions on that which you claim to be unconditional.

Post 2720 by gal, addressed to Atwood:

To remove faith as the prerequisite places you among the ranks of Universalists.

You really do need to beware of bearing false witness and also of being a false accuser of the brethren. And I did not say in the o.p. what you imply I said. Anyone can go & read it.

What I say is

1) Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved.
2) I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

there is no flaw in the above.

 

[Atwood]

Don't talk to me about my unbelief. You don't know me, you can't read my mind , and you can't read my heart. You should spend more time worrying about yourself and your false teachings. And by the way, you need to work on your arrogance too.

Yes, you imply that you do not trust the Lord Jesus to get you to Heaven, but only to give you a chance. Is it arrogance that keeps you from trusting the Lord Jesus with your eternal destiny? Is it that you insist on doing it yourself? Can you not bring yourself in humility to confess that all your righteousnesses are as filthy rags & cry out, God be merciful to me a sinner?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Don't talk to me about my unbelief. You don't know me, you can't read my mind , and you can't read my heart. You should spend more time worrying about yourself and your false teachings. And by the way, you need to work on your arrogance too.

This response is prety amazing. Then again I think you should know what arrogance is, You can't even see your own.

 

[Alligator]

Yes, you imply that you do not trust the Lord Jesus to get you to Heaven, but only to give you a chance. Is it arrogance that keeps you from trusting the Lord Jesus with your eternal destiny? Is it that you insist on doing it yourself? Can you not bring yourself in humility to confess that all your righteousnesses are as filthy rags & cry out, God be merciful to me a sinner?

what you really mean it that I don't trust YOU for my salvation. That really irritates you doesn't it. I think you are the one that needs the help here.

 

[newbirth]

The only obedience which saves is obeying this command:

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, & you shall be saved.

Trust Him as the only & sufficient Savior, not as the chance-giver.

I don't think you mean one can disobey all the other commands and still be saved....oh yes you do because it means your actions will play a part in your salvation
very good now we are getting somewhere...sheep believe and hear his voice,and follow him and he gives them eternal life. Now i see why you don't want the sheep to hear his voice and follow him...That affects your shallow belief...Do you think he spoke these words to fill a page in the bible?...

Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; [SUP]2 [/SUP]And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

 

[Atwood]

I don't think you mean one can disobey all the other commands and still be saved

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved.

 

[Atwood]

what you really mean it that I don't trust YOU for my salvation. That really irritates you doesn't it. I think you are the one that needs the help here.

Alligator, can you admit that you do not trust the Lord Jesus as Savior, but only as your "chance-giver"?

 

[newbirth]

I change nothing. Try believing God's Word.
Try trusting Christ as Savior instead of as "chance-giver"

Why don't you believe that He shall save His people from their sins?
Is it because you are not one of His people?

I am the door of the sheep. All that came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door; by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and go out, and shall find pasture. The thief cometh not, but that he may steal, and kill, and destroy: I came that they may have life, and may have it abundantly. I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd layeth down his life for the sheep. He that is a hireling, and not a shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, beholdeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth, and the wolf snatcheth them, and scattereth them: he fleeth because he is a hireling, and careth not for the sheep. I am the good shepherd; and I know mine own, and mine own know me, even as the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. . . .

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep.
My sheep

1) hear my voice, and
2) I know them, and
3) they follow me:
and [ not if the preceding ]
4) I give to them eternal life; and
5) they shall never perish, and
6) no one shall snatch them out of my hand.
My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.


We are connecting as the Bible connects -- no conditional connections were there are none.



You quibble. The sheep refers to the sheep in the passage, who are "my sheep." I can't call them "my sheep," because they are not my sheep, but Christ's sheep. But if you want to quibble "τὰ πρόβατα τὰ ἐμὰ" are literally "the sheep the mine." So "the sheep" is in the passage.



Of course you become a sheep by believing. And when will you believe in Him as your Savior, instead of chance-giver?



You infer a causal relationship where none is implied. The sheep hear and follow. Also He gives them eternal life. There is no hint of a condition, but rather a fact. If you are a sheep he gives you eternal life. So when will you trust Him, NewB?

The text is clear. There is one condition to becoming a sheep. If you are a sheep, then you recognize Christ's voice & you follow. Also He gives you eternal life. It is AND, not if.

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep.
My sheep

1) hear my voice, and
2) I know them, and
3) they follow me:
and [ not if the preceding ]
4) I give to them eternal life; and
5) they shall never perish, and
6) no one shall snatch them out of my hand.
My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

We are connecting as the Bible connects -- no conditional connections were there are none.

You feel comfortable twisting scripture? There is no if there...Jesus said my sheep indicating his sheep already believe He is saying to the non believing sheep , this is how I know my sheep. they hear my voice and they follow me and I give them eternal life ... that is the sequence. The question is not about becoming a sheep or if you are a sheep. He is showing how he identifies his sheep and what he gives his sheep. You have to ask yourself what are these sheep hearing and following( it is His WORD, that is what they hear and follow) The problem is you want eternal life without hearing and following ain't gonna happen

 

[Atwood]

ou infer a causal relationship where none is implied. The sheep hear and follow. Also He gives them eternal life. There is no hint of a condition, but rather a fact. If you are a sheep he gives you eternal life. So when will you trust Him, NewB?

The text is clear. There is one condition to becoming a sheep. If you are a sheep, then you recognize Christ's voice & you follow. Also He gives you eternal life. It is AND, not if.

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep.
My sheep

1) hear my voice, and
2) I know them, and
3) they follow me:
and [ not if the preceding ]
4) I give to them eternal life; and
5) they shall never perish, and
6) no one shall snatch them out of my hand.
My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

We are connecting as the Bible connects -- no conditional connections were there are none.

You feel comfortable twisting scripture? There is no if there...Jesus said my sheep indicating his sheep already believe He is saying to the non believing sheep , this is how I know my sheep. they hear my voice and they follow me and I give them eternal life ... that is the sequence. The question is not about becoming a sheep or if you are a sheep. He is showing how he identifies his sheep and what he gives his sheep. You have to ask yourself what are these sheep hearing and following( it is His WORD, that is what they hear and follow) The problem is you want eternal life without hearing and following ain't gonna happen

NewB,
Do you feel uncomfortable, not trusting Christ as Savior, but as "chance-giver"?

Now there is preposterous statement: "the non believing sheep." Where do you find any non-believing sheep? "Ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep." The sheep are believers; unbelievers are non-sheep.

The question is not about becoming a sheep or if you are a sheep. He is showing how he identifies his sheep and what he gives his sheep.

I agree. First he tells the unbeliever that they are not his sheep. In the quote there is not an invitation to become a sheep or a believer, but an explanation of the status of the unsaved. "Ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep."

Then indeed, he does make identifying statements of the sheep (believers) and state what He gives His sheep. But given that they are sheep, there is no condition on the gift of eternal life; it is a fact of what the Lord gives His sheep.

This is nothing about what I want; it is about what the Lord has promised.

The text is clear. There is one condition to becoming a sheep. If you are a sheep, then you recognize Christ's voice & you follow. Also He gives you eternal life. It is AND, not if.

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep.
My sheep

1) hear my voice, and
2) I know them, and
3) they follow me:
and [ not if the preceding ]
4) I give to them eternal life; and
5) they shall never perish, and
6) no one shall snatch them out of my hand.
My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

We are connecting as the Bible connects -- no conditional connections are given between hearing voice and following. There are no such conditions at all.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Repent NewB. Repent of regarding Christ as a "chance-giver," instead of a Savior.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Once again though it comes down to, What does it mean to believe in Jesus ?

Does it mean to believe He existed ?

Does it mean to believe what He did on the cross ?

Does it mean to do all that He said ?

Does it mean to do the will of God ?

The answer to all the questions above are, YES .

 

[Atwood]

Did the Thief on the cross have eternal security?

Truly I say to you,
This day you shall be in paradise with Me.

What do you think?
Did the thief have security after that statement by the Lord?
What if the thief had disbelieved after that statement?
Or is it impossible for a man once he has trusted the Lord Jesus to stop believing?

You reckon the thief had eternal security during the time before he died?

 

[Atwood]

Once again though it comes down to, What does it mean to believe in Jesus ?

Does it mean to believe He existed ? [how about exists?]

Does it mean to believe what He did on the cross ?

Does it mean to do all that He said ?[no]

Does it mean to do the will of God ? [no]
.

No one has ever done all that He said.
Change that one to believe that He will do all that He promised.

Saving faith is contrasted with works as the opposite pole.
(Not by works).
Of course if you trust Him, you will do His will as you love Him and also know that His will is best for you. But the consequence is not the definition.

Let's include to trust Him with our eternal destiny.
Let's include to believe Him when He said:

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish."

Kenneth, can you bring yourself to trust the Lord Jesus as your Savior,
instead of your "chance-giver"?

 

[kennethcadwell]

Re: Did the Thief on the cross have eternal security?

The problem is with this is the thief died shortly after he asked for forgiveness. We though who accept Christ early in our lives must still deal with the trials and tribulations of this world, and must persevere through them to be saved. Jesus made this clear in the verse I gave the other day about persevering or enduring to the end to be saved.

The other writings by Paul, James, and John confirm this and state you must endure to the end , or else you will be cast out as well.

Truly I say to you,
This day you shall be in paradise with Me.

What do you think?
Did the thief have security after that statement by the Lord?
What if the thief had disbelieved after that statement?
Or is it impossible for a man once he has trusted the Lord Jesus to stop believing?

You reckon the thief had eternal security during the time before he died?

 

[kennethcadwell]

I do trust our Lord with my salvation which is why I believe in what He said, not just part. And yes no one can do all that He said, but do you at least try to live as He said.

No one has ever done all that He said.
Change that one to believe that He will do all that He promised.

Saving faith is contrasted with works as the opposite pole.
(Not by works).
Of course if you trust Him, you will do His will as you love Him and also know that His will is best for you. But the consequence is not the definition.

Let's include to trust Him with our eternal destiny.
Let's include to believe Him when He said:

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish."

Kenneth, can you bring yourself to trust the Lord Jesus as your Savior,
instead of your "chance-giver"?

 

[Atwood]

It Is Finished! Eternally Secure

But as for me, I am like a green olive-tree in the house of God:
I trust in the lovingkindness of God for ever and ever.
I will give thee thanks for ever, because thou hast done it; - Ps 52.

Yeah, I know. Some of you trust God's grace for 15 minutes, if that.

1 Thes 5

"And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He Who calls you, Who will also do it.

foreknew >foreordained >called >justified >glorified.

 

[Atwood]

I do trust our Lord with my salvation which is why I believe in what He said, not just part. And yes no one can do all that He said, but do you at least try to live as He said.

Trying doesn't cut it. You shall be perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect. There is no seat in Heaven for trying.

How can you say you trust the Lord with your salvation and yet you could end up in the Lake of Fire. That is regarding Him as a chance-giver, not trusting Him to see you through as your Savior.

 

[Atwood]

Re: Did the Thief on the cross have eternal security?

The problem is with this is the thief died shortly after he asked for forgiveness. We though who accept Christ early in our lives must still deal with the trials and tribulations of this world, and must persevere through them to be saved. Jesus made this clear in the verse I gave the other day about persevering or enduring to the end to be saved.

Kenneth, the doctrine of eternal security says that every believer does endure to the end. (Your tribulation verse is out of context, but the principle is yet true.)

The other writings by Paul, James, and John confirm this and state you must endure to the end , or else you will be cast out as well.

No verse says that anyone can lose salvation or faith. The words lose and salvation never even occur in the same verse. You make things up now.

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish."

Can you somehow give over any fearfulness & unbelief. Trust Him as Savior, not as chance-giver.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Philippians 2:12 Therefore, by beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

I will not end up in the lake of fire because I believe in our Lord.

Matthew 10:22 " And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. "

Matthew 24:13 " But he who endures to the end shall be saved. "