It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

[Atwood]

Loving the God with all your heart, soul, and mind is part of your developing stage.

Kenneth, why are you just up and saying things for which you have no Bible proof?

Even the Apostles did not have full faith, and trust in Jesus at first. Lord Jesus even called them, including Peter a couple times, " You of little faith. "

How does failure to trust in given situation imply that at the first they did not have full faith? When they left all and followed Him they lacked full faith?
Kindly refrain from making up things. Where is your verse that says "at the first they lacked full faith"?

Your examples of lacking trust in some concrete situation prove nothing about full faith in Christ for salvation.

Are we now on a rabbit path?

The point is
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved" --
no human works, not water baptism.

Secondly, "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish."
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

Anyone who regards Christ as a mere chance-giver,
is urged to trust Him as SAvior today.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Yes I see plainly how you constantly put the saved part before the endurance part.

I have shown you multiple scriptures that put the endurance before the saved.

Matthew 24:10-13
And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 10:22
And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Hebrews 12:1-3
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted.
( endurance here is once again before the looking to Jesus which is with whom are salvation is. )

Hebrews 10:36
For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised.
( salvation )

Hebrews 3:12-14
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.
( Must hold firm in your belief to remain in Christ )

2 Timothy 4:2-8
Preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come.

1 Timothy 4:16
Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.

1 Corinthians 9:24-25
Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
( The imperishable gift we are to run to obtain is that of eternal life/salvation )

Romans 11:19-22
Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
( What will you be cut off if you don't continue, it is not rewards, it is your salvation you lose if you do not continue )

Mark 13:9-13
“But be on your guard. For they will deliver you over to councils, and you will be beaten in synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for my sake, to bear witness before them. And the gospel must first be proclaimed to all nations. And when they bring you to trial and deliver you over, do not be anxious beforehand what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour, for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit. And brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death. And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Originally Posted by Atwood

Do you continue in the wilful sin of denigrating the SAvior to a chance-giver & failing to trust Him as Your Savior?

What we know from scripture is

1) Failing to love God with all the heart is the supreme sin.
2) Failing to love neighbor as self is next to that one.
3) The only way to be delivered from sinful selfishness is a new birth, secured by trusting Christ as SAvior.
4) Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins.

To any and all who have written off Christ as a mere chance giver,
you are urged to trust Him as only & sufficient savior today.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall have His people from their sins.



Kenneth, salvation comes in 3 tenses, as I have posted. Did you see it? You are focusing on future salvation from a passage which is about making it to the end of the Tribulation & then being delivered from persecution.

I point out that the doctrine of eternal security says that those who trust Christ as Savior endure to the end; they endure to the future salvation. Thus to say that he who endures to the end will be saved is true for eternal security, for ES says that all who trust Christ as Savior do endure to the end with final salvation.

Can you not see that even if you twist a verse about physical deliverance on earth to spiritual salvation, it still does not disprove eternal security.

Logically speaking also, you want to deny an antecedent, a logical fallacy. If he endures to the end is saved, that implies nothing about those who do not endure to the end. Those who labored in the field enduring all day got a reward. That says nothing about those hired at the last minute, nor those who quit after one hour. It is called the fallacy of denying an antecedent.

but no matter, Those who trust Christ as Savior are at once saved and a feature of their salvation is enduring to the end and receiving final salvation.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.



No, that is an issue, but the biggest issue is that the plain teaching of scripture is eternal security and plastered on this forum. And there is nothing inconsistent with that, particularly from passages which say nothing about losing salvation. I you had exact synonyms that would be acceptable also; but you do not.

To really love the Lord with all the heart is an impossibility without trusting Christ as Savior and getting a transformed new heart. Dismissing him as mere chance-giver and denying that He is the Savior, is not a way to get to loving God.

 

[Atwood]

The Topic is Eternal Security

THE OVERCOMER
Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God: and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away. And he that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he saith, Write: for these words are faithful and true. And he said unto me, They are come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.

In II Thess. 3:3 “But the Lord is faithful, who shall establish you, and guard you from the evil one.”

In II Tim. 1:12 : “For I know Him whom I have believed, and I am persuaded that He is able to guard that which He has committed to me against that day.”

Note that in 2 Tim 4:18 of the same Epistle he glories in the fact that the Lord will deliver him from every evil work and will save him unto His heavenly kingdom.

 

[kennethcadwell]

It is sad how you say I make stuff up when I give you biblical proof.

Kenneth, why are you just up and saying things for which you have no Bible proof?



How does failure to trust in given situation imply that at the first they did not have full faith? When they left all and followed Him they lacked full faith?
Kindly refrain from making up things. Where is your verse that says "at the first they lacked full faith"?

Your examples of lacking trust in some concrete situation prove nothing about full faith in Christ for salvation.

Are we now on a rabbit path?

The point is
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved" --
no human works, not water baptism.

Secondly, "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish."
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

You keep saying these two verses, but you neglect the rest of what Jesus said.
Just believing is called mere belief, which is what demons and the fallen angels have, and even some in scripture have but still are not saved...Not every one who calls Me Lord, Lord will be welcomed into the kingdom of Heaven.

Anyone who regards Christ as a mere chance-giver,
is urged to trust Him as SAvior today.

 

[Atwood]

Cadwell's Canards Reposted!

It looks like Kenneth has reposted his canards which have now been answered more than once.

Go back to Post 3375 to see the repetition
The Savior and Salvation hardly occur at all in these canards; salvation occurs only as physical salvation during the Tribulation. So there passages not having Savior or Salvation are not really on topic. Lose & salvation, like Lose & Faith, never occur both in one verse.

So here are Kenneth Caldwell's canards with answers:

This is the point I was trying to make with the scriptures I posted: saved now philosophy does not apply to scripture.

Yes it does. And I have quoted it to you already. 1 John says that believers should know that they have eternal life.

The topic is supposed to be about Savior & Salvation; note that Kenneth's verses are off topic -- no Savior & no salvation in them:

[James 1:12
Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.

crowns are rewards, not salvation

----------------------
Matthew 24:10-13
And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 10:22
And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Mat 24 & 10 are about making it to the end of the Tribulation, not spiritual salvation. But according the eternal security,
the saved do all endure to the end.
--------------------

Hebrews 12:1-3
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted.

I highlighted the verse with red font.
Amen. Since our salvation is guaranteed, let us run the race for rewards.
----------------------------------------

Hebrews 10:36
Cast not away therefore your boldness, which hath great recompense of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, having done the will of God, ye may receive the promise.
For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised [that is the reward, which is not salvation] don't stop there, go through 10:39

And we can be confident if we have trusted the Lord Jesus as Savior that we shall endure.
But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.
---------------------
Kenneth stops at vs 6; he should know to go thru vs 9:


Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. [keep going:]For the land which hath drunk the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them for whose sake it is also tilled, receiveth blessing from God: but if it beareth thorns and thistles, it is rejected and nigh unto a curse; whose end is to be burned.But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak:
Again you didn't go through 6:9, which begins with red above.

-------------------------------

Hebrews 3:12-14
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.

And we do hold our confidence firm to the end, which proves our share in Christ!
---------------------------------

2 Timothy 4:2-8
Preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come.

Nothing here about salvation.
------------------------------------

1 Timothy 4:16
Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.

The message is part of the salvation process. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God.
---------------------------

1 Corinthians 9:24-25
Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.

Another passage on rewards, not salvation
----------------------------

Romans 11:19-22
Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

Passage is on age mass movements of Jews & Gentiles, not individual salvation. Gentiles as a whole are called thou. Rom 11 begins & ends with election, and near the end: "For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."
--------------------------------

Mark 13:9-13
“But be on your guard. For they will deliver you over to councils, and you will be beaten in synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for my sake, to bear witness before them. And the gospel must first be proclaimed to all nations. And when they bring you to trial and deliver you over, do not be anxious beforehand what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour, for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit. And brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death. And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Passage about making it to the end of the Tribulation, not spiritual salvation.
However, by eternal security all the saved do endure to the end.
------------------------------------

Using one scripture or a couple to defend your philosophy could easily be debated, but when scriptures are said by our Lord and then reiterated by the apostles then it can not be debated. For they all say the same thing.

None of your passages say "salvation," except Mark 13, which is not about spiritual salvation but making it through the Tribulation. Also, none of your passages speak about the Savior. So they are irrelevant, except that Jesus being the author & perfecter of our faith is relevant & contrary to the canards. I added Heb 6:9 which does speak of salvation & how the preceding is not that. And these passages do not contradict the fact of eternal security.

 

[Atwood]

Originally Posted by Atwood

Originally Posted by Atwood

Do you continue in the wilful sin of denigrating the SAvior to a chance-giver & failing to trust Him as Your Savior?

What we know from scripture is

1) Failing to love God with all the heart is the supreme sin.
2) Failing to love neighbor as self is next to that one.
3) The only way to be delivered from sinful selfishness is a new birth, secured by trusting Christ as SAvior.
4) Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins.

To any and all who have written off Christ as a mere chance giver,
you are urged to trust Him as only & sufficient savior today.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall have His people from their sins.

Kenneth, salvation comes in 3 tenses, as I have posted. Did you see it? You are focusing on future salvation from a passage which is about making it to the end of the Tribulation & then being delivered from persecution.

I point out that the doctrine of eternal security says that those who trust Christ as Savior endure to the end; they endure to the future salvation. Thus to say that he who endures to the end will be saved is true for eternal security, for ES says that all who trust Christ as Savior do endure to the end with final salvation.

Can you not see that even if you twist a verse about physical deliverance on earth to spiritual salvation, it still does not disprove eternal security.

Logically speaking also, you want to deny an antecedent, a logical fallacy. If he endures to the end is saved, that implies nothing about those who do not endure to the end. Those who labored in the field enduring all day got a reward. That says nothing about those hired at the last minute, nor those who quit after one hour. It is called the fallacy of denying an antecedent.

but no matter, Those who trust Christ as Savior are at once saved and a feature of their salvation is enduring to the end and receiving final salvation.

Yes I see plainly how you constantly put the saved part before the endurance part.I have shown you multiple scriptures that put the endurance before the saved.

Then you ignore what I pointed out to you, that Salvation comes in 3 tenses, then after initial salvation there is continued present salvation with endurance to future salvation. So the endurance follows the initial salvation and continues into the future.

Endurance applies to the present condition of Christians: they endure (a fact)


Quoting verse on physical salvation at the end of the Trib is irrelevant.

But eternal security is the POV that after initial salvation it continues with endurance to the final salvation. Thus endurance both follows salvation and precedes final salvation -- though it doesn't stop there but goes on forever.

3 TENSES OF SALVATION: past, present, future.

1. Past Salvation. We were saved from the guilt & penalty of sin.
The Christian can rightly say after He trusts Christ as savior, "I was saved." 2 Tim 1:8-9 For God did not give us not a spirit of fearfulness; but of power & love & discipline. Be not ashamed therefore of the testimony of our Lord, not of me his prisoner: but suffer hardship with the gospel according to the power of God; who SAVED us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose & grace which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal,

Eph 2 "God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead thru our trespasses, made us alive together w/ Christ (by grace you have been saved) & raised us up w/ him & made us to sit w/ him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you HAVE BEEN SAVED thru faith; & that [salvation] not of yourselves. It is the gift of God; not of works that no man should glory.

2. Present Salvation: We have deliverance from the Power of Sin.
1 Cor 1:18: ""For the word of the cross is to them who perish foolishness; but to us who ARE BEING SAVED it is the power of God."

2 Cor 2:15: " For we are a sweet savor of Christ to God, in them WHO ARE BEING SAVED, and in them who are perishing; to the one a savor from death unto death; to the other a savor from life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things? For we are not as the many, corrupting the word of God. But as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God, we speak in Christ."

While a depraved child of Adam inevitably sins, a born-again Christian does not have to sin. A way of escape is always made for him. 1 Cor 10:13: There has no temptation taken you but such as man can bear; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted above that you are able; but will with the temptation make also the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

3. Future Salvation:
We shall be saved from the presence of indwelling Sin, be glorified, and live in bliss with the Lord forever.

But God commendS his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through him. For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life;

In that Christians are promised that they never perish, thus they do endure. Enduring is not in doubt.

Kenneth posted:

run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted.
( endurance here is once again before the looking to Jesus which is with whom are salvation is. )

Claiming the endurance is before the looking to Jesus in this passage is absurd. If you started out running with endurance not looking at the Lord you would run off a cliff,

 

[Atwood]

Cadwell wants endurance as before salvation

Cadwell wants endurance as before salvation. But it would be impossible for an unsaved man to endure. You couldn't start out on endurance until you began. He says:

run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus,

the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted.
( endurance here is once again before the looking to Jesus which is with whom are salvation is. )

Claiming the endurance is before the looking to Jesus in this passage is absurd. If you started out running with endurance not looking at the Lord you would run off a cliff.

The person to run is a Christian, a saved person, as proven from the post on 3 tenses of salvation. Trying to make salvation something merely future awarded for works of endurance is impossible.

Perhaps Kenneth didn't notice the part about Jesus being the founder & perfecter of our faith.

And it seems to elude him how that saying that he who endures to the end will be saved, proves nothing about those who don't endure. Nor is it inconsistent with eternal security. In fact endurance is what eternal security says.

In short, "he who endures to the end will be saved" proves nothing about what is essential to salvation, particularly in the light of the fact that the statement is about physical salvation at the end of the Tribulation.

 

[Alligator]

Re: Continue in Willful Sin?

No it doesn't sound like a person who has been given guaranteed salvation from the Savior.

Like other passages, one needs to keep on reading to get the explanation -- go through vs 39.

It also helps to read the preceding context:

By which will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest indeed standeth day by day ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, the which can never take away sins: but he, when he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Vs 39

But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.

And just what exactly is first 39 supposed to prove relative to what I just posted?

 

[newbirth]

Originally Posted by Atwood

3 TENSES OF SALVATION: past, present, future.

1. Past Salvation. We were saved from the guilt & penalty of sin.
The Christian can rightly say after He trusts Christ as savior, "I was saved." 2 Tim 1:8-9 For God did not give us not a spirit of fearfulness; but of power & love & discipline. Be not ashamed therefore of the testimony of our Lord, not of me his prisoner: but suffer hardship with the gospel according to the power of God; who SAVED us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose & grace which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal,

Eph 2 "God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead thru our trespasses, made us alive together w/ Christ (by grace you have been saved) & raised us up w/ him & made us to sit w/ him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you HAVE BEEN SAVED thru faith; & that [salvation] not of yourselves. It is the gift of God; not of works that no man should glory.

2. Present Salvation: We have deliverance from the Power of Sin.
1 Cor 1:18: ""For the word of the cross is to them who perish foolishness; but to us who ARE BEING SAVED it is the power of God."

2 Cor 2:15: " For we are a sweet savor of Christ to God, in them WHO ARE BEING SAVED, and in them who are perishing; to the one a savor from death unto death; to the other a savor from life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things? For we are not as the many, corrupting the word of God. But as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God, we speak in Christ."

While a depraved child of Adam inevitably sins, a born-again Christian does not have to sin. A way of escape is always made for him. 1 Cor 10:13: There has no temptation taken you but such as man can bear; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted above that you are able; but will with the temptation make also the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

3. Future Salvation:
We shall be saved from the presence of indwelling Sin, be glorified, and live in bliss with the Lord forever.

But God commendS his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through him. For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life;

In that Christians are promised that they never perish, thus they do endure. Enduring is not in doubt.


,

As long as they continue following Christ...you know some think they could continue in sin and still inherit the kingdom
[SUP]18 [/SUP]But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[Atwood]

Re: Continue in Willful Sin?

And just what exactly is first 39 supposed to prove relative to what I just posted?

By which will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest indeed standeth day by day ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, the which can never take away sins: but he, when he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Have you heard of the atonement of Christ? How He paid for our sins once for all?

That is the basis of the following:

Q Dost thou believe that the Lord Jesus died for thee?
A I believe it.

Q Dost thou thank him for his passion and death?
A I do thank him.

Q Dost thou believe that thou canst not be saved except by his death?
A I believe it.

Come then, while life remaineth in thee: in his death alone place thy whole trust; in naught else place any trust; to his death commit thyself wholly, with this alone cover thyself wholly;

and if the Lord thy God will to judge thee,
say, ‘Lord, between thy judgment and me I present the death of our Lord Jesus Christ; no otherwise can I contend with thee.’

And if he shall say that thou art a sinner,
say thou: ‘Lord, I interpose the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between my sins and thee.

‘If he say that thou hast deserved condemnation,
say: ‘Lord, I set the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between my evil deserts and thee, and his merits I offer for those which I ought to have and have not.’

If he say that he is wroth with thee,
say: ‘Lord, I oppose the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between thy wrath and me.

‘And when thou hast completed this,
say again: ‘Lord, I set the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between thee and me.’

Attributed to Anselm of Canterbury (c. 1033-1109)

because the love of God hath been shed abroad in our hearts through the Holy Spirit which was given unto us. For while we were yet weak, in due season Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: for peradventure for the good man some one would even dare to die. But God commendeth his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him. For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life; and not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. - Rom 5

 

[Atwood]

As long as they continue following Christ...you know some think they could continue in sin and still inherit the kingdom

Do not add to God's word, NewB. The only as long as is:

as long as the Lord Jesus lives to make intercession & to continue saving the man who put His trust in Him --
as long as God keeps His promises.
As long as eternity, for it is written: I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

Once God gives that promise & undertakes a man's salvation, the end is certain. He who began a good work in you is able to complete it.

The surest way to continue in sin is to write off the Savior as a chance-giver and not trust Him wholly for one's salvation. Oppose not yourself; trust Him with your destiny now.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sin.

 

[newbirth]

Re: The Topic is Eternal Security

THE OVERCOMER
Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

Why not quote the three verses that came before are thy not a part in the life of an overcomer?...or is it because you don't like to obey?
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. [SUP]2 [/SUP]By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

 

[Atwood]

Re: The Topic is Eternal Security

THE OVERCOMER
Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father…1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

Why not quote the three verses that came before are thy not a part in the life of an overcomer?

The point of the Overcomer passage is that 1 John tells us who is the Overcomer is, namely a believer. Then we find that the overcomer is eternally secure. Rev says that the overcomer will never have his name blotted out of the book of life.

The love of Christ constrains the believer to want to please His precious Savior. He who has been forgiven much loves much. The muchness of His love extends to paying for all my sins & forgiving me all my sins.

Now, NewB, one cannot obey until one's nature is changed by a new birth, that is, until one trusts Christ as Savior. He is not the "chance-giver," but the Savior who promises to save if you trust Him.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins.

What I like to do is irrelevant to establishing doctrine; what God's word says goes.

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

 

[newbirth]

Re: The Topic is Eternal Security

THE OVERCOMER
Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father…1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.



The point of the Overcomer passage is that 1 John tells us who is the Overcomer is, namely a believer. Then we find that the overcomer is eternally secure. Rev says that the overcomer will never have his name blotted out of the book of life.

The love of Christ constrains the believer to want to please His precious Savior. He who has been forgiven much loves much. The muchness of His love extends to paying for all my sins & forgiving me all my sins.

Now, NewB, one cannot obey until one's nature is changed by a new birth, that is, until one trusts Christ as Savior. He is not the "chance-giver," but the Savior who promises to save if you trust Him.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins.

What I like to do is irrelevant to establishing doctrine; what God's word says goes.

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

But what is the purpose of obeying if it has no impact on your salvation?
What is the purpose of a new birth if my actions have no effect on my salvation.
If my future sins are forgiven before I commit them then sin is ineffective toward me

 

[Atwood]

Re: The Topic is Eternal Security

But what is the purpose of obeying if it has no impact on your salvation?

Dear NewB,
For by grace you have been saved [if you have been saved] by faith, and that not of yourselves, not of works lest anyone should boast.

How do you know that obeying should have a purpose, instead of being the spontaneous response of a man who loves the Lord and is constrained by His love for him? But it does have a kind of purpose, namely earning rewards, crowns which we may cast at His feet & thereby glorify Him, acknowledging that whatever good we did, it was by His grace, & thus we may glorify Him.

But works are not to earn self-righteousness and a ticket to Heaven.

On the topic of salvation & eternal security, you seem obsessed in bringing in a foreign topic, that of obedience & works. That is a worthy topic, but it is off topic on salvation. Salvation is not of works. Salvation is a Savior saving a wretched sinner who has no good works and needs saving. Then salvation is about SAvior keeping us saved & delivering eternal life according to His promise.

What is the purpose of a new birth if my actions have no effect on my salvation.

The purpose of a new birth is to be recreated by God, transformed into a being who loves the Lord and can now do good works. The good actions follow the new birth and are not its cause.

If my future sins are forgiven before I commit them then sin is ineffective toward me

Ineffective? See Romans 7 where I was alive apart from the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived & I died. Carnality & moral frustration follow. O wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me? I thank God through Christ Jesus. But this concerns a man who has been born again, who has trusted Christ as SAvior (not as chance-giver).

Take time to stop being fixated on sin and obedience long enough to consider the need of trusting in the Savior for deliverance. The focus should be on Him rather than on the waves.

Can you not believe this?:

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

 

[SeaBass]

Now that is what you say, but this is what God says:

"For I verily, being absent in body but present in spirit, have already as though I were present judged him that hath so wrought this thing, in the name of our Lord Jesus, ye being gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

The point is, as in Hebrews, that to be chastised proves you are a child of God (instead of a pretender church member).

And in this passage there is nothing about losing salvation. The man must be saved or he would not be chastised. And the chastisement is to keep the guy saved.

I don't recall reading anything in the parable of the prodigal son about a Savior or salvation. So you read things in that are not there. Once you have determined doctrine from propositional statements, then you may use the parable to illustrate that.

Now you have your feathers ruffled over the fornication accusation of the older brother, which may or may not be true (older brother wasn't with the younger). But what do you think of those who live not loving neighbor as self? Do you think that might be a worse sins? BTW, the butt of the story is the older brother (did he not say that he had never disobeyed the father's commandments?), not the younger brother.

So who are you?
the younger or the older brother?

Why does it say MAY be saved if he was ALREADY was saved and could not possibly ever be lost?

You are trying to argue one can live in fornication and spend money on harlots be impenitent yet maintain his salvation through it all.

 

[Atwood]

Why does it say MAY be saved if he was ALREADY was saved and could not possibly ever be lost?

You are trying to argue one can live in fornication and spend money on harlots be impenitent yet maintain his salvation through it all.

It says may be saved because it is conditional upon the saving work of the Lord in chastisement. And this looks to the future destiny of the man. Salvation comes in 3 tenses. Would you like me to repost that or have you seen it or do you stipulate it?

This is an example of a child of God being chastised. As Hebrews says, only saved persons, children of God, get chastised. Thus chastisement proves he was not just an unsaved church member (of which there are plenty).

What is your proof that the prodigal lived in fornication? And where does this passage say anything about a Savior or salvation? Parables have a point to make; don't read in things that are not there or dogmatize over uninterpreted elements of the story.

Who is worse in the story? The younger son or the older who claimed he never broke a commandment? Who is the butt of the story?

What is ironic about your approach is that denying that Christ is the Savior and reducing him to a chance-giver means you have no salvation from sin at all. Even if you are a self-righteous moralist, it does you no good. Trusting Christ as Savior and resting in His eternal security does not lead to living in sin, but leads to being constrained by the love of God.

Focus on the scripture, not on straw man situations.

The word says that You shall call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins. That may involve chastisement. But God's promises remain true. A Christian may not live in gross immorality indefinitely without being stopped in his tracks. To persist in gross immorality implies never saved, possibly just a church member.

Now what will you do about your own sin? Is it worse to live in fornication or in self-righteous Phariseeism? Can you persist in not loving your neighbor as yourself and go to Heaven?

You will not love neighbor as self without trusting Christ first as your Savior. So long as you reduce Him to a chance giver, what hope do you have?

It is written!:

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

INTRO TO DOCTRINE OF SALVATION (SOTERIOLOGY)

A. IMPORTANCE OF CORRECTNESS

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

B. TOTAL DEPRAVITY OF MAN

Much of our understanding of salvation is influenced by our understanding the man is totally depraved. There is none who does good, no not one. Even the ploughing of the unsaved farmer expresses his sinfulness because of his selfish motive, not done to glorify God. Total Depravity does not mean that every woman is as evil as she cud be, but that all of her being is affected by sin & nothing she does is good before God.


C. GOD'S PROVISION IS TOTAL & COMPLETE

On the cross Christ said, "It is finished."

Romans 8 ends with an unbreakable chain:
"For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Romans 8: "He who spared not His own son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not also with Him freely give us all things."

Gal: "Grace to you..from God the Father & our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins, THAT HE MIGHT DELIVER US OUT OF THIS PRESENT EVIL AGE, according to the will of our God & Father"

D. 3 TENSES OF SALVATION: past, present, future.

1. Past Salvation. We were saved from the guilt & penalty of sin.
The Christian can rightly say after He trusts Christ as savior, "I was saved." 2 Tim 1:8-9 For God did not give us not a spirit of fearfulness; but of power & love & discipline. Be not ashamed therefore of the testimony of our Lord, not of me his prisoner: but suffer hardship with the gospel according to the power of God; who SAVED us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose & grace which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal,


Eph 2 "God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead thru our trespasses, made us alive together w/ Christ (by grace you have been saved) & raised us up w/ him & made us to sit w/ him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you HAVE BEEN SAVED thru faith; & that [salvation] not of yourselves. It is the gift of God; not of works that no man should glory.

2. Present Salvation: We have deliverance from the Power of Sin.
1 Cor 1:18: ""For the word of the cross is to them who perish foolishness; but to us who ARE BEING SAVED it is the power of God."

2 Cor 2:15: " For we are a sweet savor of Christ to God, in them WHO ARE BEING SAVED, and in them who arfe perishing; to the one a savor from death unto death; to the other a savor from life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things? For we are not as the many, corrupting the word of God. But as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God, we speak in Christ."

While a depraved child of Adam inevitably sins, a born-again Christian does not have to sin. A way of escape is always made for him. 1 Cor 10:13: There has no temptation taken you but such as man can bear; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted above that you are able; but will with the temptation make also the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

3. Future Salvation: We shall be saved from the presence of indwelling Sin, be glorified, and live in bliss with the Lord forever.

But God commendS his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through him. For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life;

 

[Atwood]

You are trying to argue one can. . . yet maintain his salvation through it all.

Dear SeaBass,
No one maintains His salvation at all. In salvation, Christ is the Savior who does the maintaining; the sinner who trusts Christ as Savior (from sin and to eternal life) is the savee.

< 1 Peter 1

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

The sinner who trusts the Savior & thereby becomes transformed, is guarded -- the One Who Guards is the Lord Jesus Who has the power of God. There is a Guarder and the guarded one.

 

[newbirth]

Re: The Topic is Eternal Security

Dear NewB,

For by grace you have been saved [if you have been saved] by faith, and that not of yourselves, not of works lest anyone should boast.

I know I am saved I trust Jesus Christ as mu saviour.

How do you know that obeying should have a purpose, instead of being the spontaneous response of a man who loves the Lord and is constrained by His love for him? But it does have a kind of purpose, namely earning rewards, crowns which we may cast at His feet & thereby glorify Him, acknowledging that whatever good we did, it was by His grace, & thus we may glorify Him.

I am not interested in rewards so do i still obey I am confused

But works are not to earn self-righteousness and a ticket to Heaven.

I don't want to be self righteous if i do works then I may become selfrighteous

On the topic of salvation & eternal security, you seem obsessed in bringing in a foreign topic, that of obedience & works. That is a worthy topic, but it is off topic on salvation. Salvation is not of works. Salvation is a Savior saving a wretched sinner who has no good works and needs saving. Then salvation is about SAvior keeping us saved & delivering eternal life according to His promise.

So you mean obedience and works have nothing to do with my salvation then I may have been misled...How can i be sure of this?

The purpose of a new birth is to be recreated by God, transformed into a being who loves the Lord and can now do good works. The good actions follow the new birth and are not its cause.

You teach a hard doctrine How do i know when I am recreated seeing I love the Lord and was doing good works before?

Ineffective? See Romans 7 where I was alive apart from the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived & I died. Carnality & moral frustration follow. O wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me? I thank God through Christ Jesus. But this concerns a man who has been born again, who has trusted Christ as SAvior (not as chance-giver).

I do trust Christ as my Saviour..

Take time to stop being fixated on sin and obedience long enough to consider the need of trusting in the Savior for deliverance. The focus should be on Him rather than on the waves.

I will
Can you not believe this?:

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

I do believe

 

[Atwood]

Re: The Topic is Eternal Security

So you mean obedience and works have nothing to do with my salvation then I may have been misled...How can i be sure of this?

Reading Romans 1-4 and Galatians is the best guidance I know of on this. Ephesians 2 tells us that salvation is not of works, though works follow salvation inevitably. Works have nothing to do with causing the salvation, but they follow salvation as the result of salvation.

If you trust the Lord Jesus with your eternal destiny, then you know you are born again.

What must I do to be saved?
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, & you shall be saved.

1 JOHN 5 tells us:

These things have I written unto you, that ye may know that ye have eternal life, even unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God.

Being born again is born to new life, eternal life.

To me the doctrine does not seem hard, but the rest of belief in Christ; Come to me all ye who labor & are heavy-laden . . . & I will give you rest.

I understand the mentality that one is so grateful to the Lord for all He has done that one does not wish rewards, but I myself am interested in rewards since the Lord offers them; maybe I don't think about them enough. It must be good to seek them because they are part of His plan. Standing round the glassy sea in Rev 4, who would not want a crown (victor's wreath) to cast at His feet acknowledging that our good works were by His grace?