It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

[chubbena]

Just wanted to say 1 thing....

I usually stay from threads like this because the very title and OP of them can cause more division and arrogance within the body than any truth it attempts to profess.

I can't help but wonder how many Christians would approach someone in church, especially one who professes to be a brother/sister in Christ and tell them to their face something like,

"What you believe is satanic heresy."

I would hope very few. And if there are, I wouldn't want to have anything to do with them.

In my opinion, statements and attitudes like this are found primarily in forums like this where there is no accountability to others for our words. I think it would interesting to see what would happen if folks took some of their more harsh statements and let their pastor/leader/mentor read them?

It's a good thing to debate and to disagree. But I think a measure of grace and humility should be found when talking to our fellow brothers and sisters.

p.s. Atwood, I'm not picking on you specifically here. There are lots of posts out there that do this.

The same won't happen in a "church" church setting. Reasons:
a. There is always someone or a group in control.
b. No one is encouraged to question during a sermon.
c. Those with different "opinions" are always "invited" to go somewhere else.
One can almost identify which cc members are leaders of their church by the way they speak - they cannot be wrong because they have a whole congregation to report to and they rage wars against those with a different opinion because they are never talked back like this in their own church.
Of course there are exceptions.

 

[chubbena]

Even more problematic for you. OSAS IS a Calvinistic tenet of the umbrella of Predestination. It ONLY fits in his theology because God decreed that certain individuals would be saved eternally. Obviously then man has no imput, is not a moral agent, has not rational soul, in other words, has not free will.
You, and I take your word for it are not a Calvinists, but you are trying to put a Calvinist, predestinated tenet into a non-predestined theology. You know the square peg in a round hole. It cannot be done which is why nothing you are explaining aligns with scripture. Along with the fact that you are applying Christ's work as the same as attaining eternal life.

Calvin wrote against a corrupted system just as Paul wrote his letters to specific readers. Today's Calvinists are a far cry from those 40 years ago let alone 400 years. Although Calvinism is with flaw, at least it's theology is consistent not flip flopping like the OSAS fellows we meet here. However, OSAS has it's merits - it helps church growth, whether it grows like cancer or not.

 

[SeaBass]

I seem to remember some years ago about someone telling me about a Baptist congregation hiring a new, young preacher. He was very gung-ho on the topic of eternal security and did not let a service go by without preaching on it, or at least mentioning it in his sermons. In time it really hit home with his congregation so much so the congregation realized they did could not lose their salvation no matter what, even if they quit, or rarely showed up for services...which many did.

Low attendance = low contribution. Contribution money went way down, eye-brows went way up....Houston, we have a problem.

I do not know what ever became of that situation but always wondered what that young preacher did. Did he begin to preach to them they would be lost if they did not show at services and put money in the collection plate? But how could he ever tell them that with a straight face? Did he just back off the topic mentioning it very rarely, if ever, again? Did he get fired? What a predicament.

 

[SeaBass]

You are not the reason they are here.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

No, but they are the reason I am here.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Not at all true according to Hebrews 6 It is impossible to be renewed as it would put Christ to an open shame.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

yep. if ya ever lost it. there is no getting back.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Gross misunderstanding again of what Christ did for us and why. They are not the same thing.
This has been pointed out repeatedly, but it seems to go right over your head. This is part of that strawman again, although in ignorance of what Christ did for mankind.

This post is a strawman.

No fact

No evidence.

Just attack.

Good day

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are Calvinistic if you are saying Paul is talking about the individual unconditionally being "saved" apart from the group "Christian".

No. I am not calvainst. Stop your false accusations.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

One must be IN Christ in order to work with Christ in attaining eternal life with Him. Regeneration is simply man being reunited with Christ by baptism, entrance. It is NOT attaining eternal life, but it is absolutely necessary.

um. First one must be made alive in order to be made alive (the word eternal is not a religious term. it tells us how long this life is)

You do not help Christ help you attain eternal life, it is a gift of God (the wage of sin is death, the gift of God is eternal life)

Regeneration is a term that means made alive.

Start reading the bible. Not listening to what men say

 

[Atwood]

You chide me for just saying things. Yet all you do is cite texts. Citing texts is no proof of anything. . .
You are going to need a lot more proof than citing texts to prove OSAS.

Alice In Wonderland, Cassian.

The Word of God is ultimate proof.
Not your word, not the traditions of men.

It is written!

" The wise men are put to shame, they are dismayed and taken: lo, they have rejected the Word of YHWH; and what manner of wisdom is in them?"


Ps 119
Blessed are they that are perfect in the way,
Who walk in the law of Jehovah.
2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies,
That seek him with the whole heart.
3 Yea, they do no unrighteousness;
They walk in his ways.
4 Thou hast commanded us thy precepts,
That we should observe them diligently.
5 Oh that my ways were established
To observe thy statutes!
6 Then shall I not be put to shame,
When I have respect unto all thy commandments.

Wherewith shall a young man cleanse his way?
By taking heed thereto according to thy word.
10 With my whole heart have I sought thee:
Oh let me not wander from thy commandments.
11 Thy word have I laid up in my heart,
That I might not sin against thee.
12 Blessed art thou, O Jehovah:
Teach me thy statutes.
13 With my lips have I declared
All the ordinances of thy mouth.
14 I have rejoiced in the way of thy testimonies,
As much as in all riches.
15 I will meditate on thy precepts,
And have respect unto thy ways.
16 I will delight myself in thy statutes:
I will not forget thy word.


18 Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold
Wondrous things out of thy law.
19 I am a sojourner in the earth:
Hide not thy commandments from me.
20 My soul breaketh for the longing
That it hath unto thine ordinances at all times.
21 Thou hast rebuked the proud that are cursed,
That do wander from thy commandments.

26 I declared my ways, and thou answeredst me:
Teach me thy statutes.
27 Make me to understand the way of thy precepts:
So shall I meditate on thy wondrous works.
28 My soul melteth for heaviness:
Strengthen thou me according unto thy word.
29 Remove from me the way of falsehood;
And grant me thy law graciously.
30 I have chosen the way of faithfulness:
Thine ordinances have I set before me.
31 I cleave unto thy testimonies:


Teach me, O Jehovah, the way of thy statutes;
And I shall keep it unto the end.
34 Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law;
Yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart.
35 Make me to go in the path of thy commandments;
For therein do I delight.
36 Incline my heart unto thy testimonies,

For thine ordinances are good.
40 Behold, I have longed after thy precepts:
Quicken me in thy righteousness.



42 So shall I have an answer for him that reproacheth me;
For I trust in thy word.
43 And take not the word of truth utterly out of my mouth;
For I have hoped in thine ordinances.
44 So shall I observe thy law continually
For ever and ever.
45 And I shall walk at liberty;
For I have sought thy precepts.
46 I will also speak of thy testimonies before kings,
And shall not be put to shame.
47 And I will delight myself in thy commandments,
Which I have loved.
48 I will lift up my hands also unto thy commandments, which I have loved;
And I will meditate on thy statutes.


4
53 Hot indignation hath taken hold upon me,
Because of the wicked that forsake thy law.
54 Thy statutes have been my songs
In the house of my pilgrimage.

Jehovah is my portion:
I have said that I would observe thy words.
58 I entreated thy favor with my whole heart:

63 I am a companion of all them that fear thee,
And of them that observe thy precepts.
64 The earth, O Jehovah, is full of thy lovingkindness:
Teach me thy statutes.


65 TETH.
Thou hast dealt well with thy servant,
O Jehovah, according unto thy word.
66 Teach me good judgment and knowledge;
For I have believed in thy commandments.
67 Before I was afflicted I went astray;
But now I observe thy word.
68 Thou art good, and doest good;
Teach me thy statutes.
69 The proud have forged a lie against me:
With my whole heart will I keep thy precepts.
70 Their heart is as fat as grease;
But I delight in thy law.
71 It is good for me that I have been afflicted;
That I may learn thy statutes.
72 The law of thy mouth is better unto me
Than thousands of gold and silver.


Give me understanding, that I may learn thy commandments.
74 They that fear thee shall see me and be glad,
Because I have hoped in thy word.
75 I know, O Jehovah, that thy judgments are righteous,
And that in faithfulness thou hast afflicted me.

80 Let my heart be perfect in thy statutes,
That I be not put to shame.

For ever, O Jehovah,
Thy word is settled in heaven.

92 Unless thy law had been my delight,
I should then have perished in mine affliction.
93 I will never forget thy precepts;
For with them thou hast quickened me.

96 I have seen an end of all perfection;
But thy commandment is exceeding broad.


Oh how love I thy law!
It is my meditation all the day.
98 Thy commandments make me wiser than mine enemies;
For they are ever with me.
99 I have more understanding than all my teachers;
For thy testimonies are my meditation.
100 I understand more than the aged,
Because I have kept thy precepts.
101 I have refrained my feet from every evil way,
That I might observe thy word.
102 I have not turned aside from thine ordinances;
For thou hast taught me.


103 How sweet are thy words unto my taste!
Yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth!
104 Through thy precepts I get understanding:
Therefore I hate every false way.

Thy word is a lamp unto my feet,
And light unto my path.


I hate them that are of a double mind;
But thy law do I love.
114 Thou art my hiding-place and my shield:
I hope in thy word.
115 Depart from me, ye evil-doers,
That I may keep the commandments of my God.
116 Uphold me according unto thy word, that I may live;
And let me not be ashamed of my hope.

I love thy testimonies.

126 It is time for Jehovah to work;
For they have made void thy law.
127 Therefore I love thy commandments
Above gold, yea, above fine gold.
128 Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right;
And I hate every false way.


130 The opening of thy words giveth light;
It giveth understanding unto the simple.

160 The sum of thy word is truth;
And every one of thy righteous ordinances endureth for ever.

But my heart standeth in awe of thy words.
162 I rejoice at thy word,
As one that findeth great spoil.

 

[SeaBass]

yep. if ya ever lost it. there is no getting back.

Heb 6:6 "If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

1) falling away could not be possible of eternal security were true.

2) Why would it be impossible to renew them again to repentance? seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

--Christ is "the reason" one repents.

--Both verbs "crucify" and "put" are present tense and as long as one remains in a continuous state of crucifying and putting to shame "the reason" one repents, then it will be impossible for him to come to repentance. But if one quits crucifying and putting to shame 'the reason" to repent, then one can come to repentance, as did Simon, Acts 8.

 

[SeaBass]

No. I am not calvainst. Stop your false accusations.

But you would be promoting Calvinist theology if you are saying Paul is talking about the individual unconditionally being "saved" apart from the group "Christian".

 

[Atwood]

I seem to remember some years ago about someone telling me about a Baptist congregation hiring a new, young preacher.

No scripture, no proof of anything, just an apocryphal story.

A funny book was written called "How to Become a Bishop without being Religious." The author's (humorous argument) was like this:

Since a church is a business, one adjusts theology to that end. Thus, even if these are incompatible claims, one preaches these 2 things:

1) Total Depravity: This produces guilt.
2) Salvation by Works: Then one proclaims that salvation is by works, so they should give money to the church.

Actually knowing that God loved me and sent His Son to pay for my sins, has never made me feel like sinning; rather it makes me appreciate the great love of my Savior and His love constrains me to want to please Him in every way.

Freely you have received,
Freely give.

For by grace you have been saved through faith,
and that not of yourselves,
not of works lest anyone should boast.

 

[chubbena]

I seem to remember some years ago about someone telling me about a Baptist congregation hiring a new, young preacher. He was very gung-ho on the topic of eternal security and did not let a service go by without preaching on it, or at least mentioning it in his sermons. In time it really hit home with his congregation so much so the congregation realized they did could not lose their salvation no matter what, even if they quit, or rarely showed up for services...which many did.

Low attendance = low contribution. Contribution money went way down, eye-brows went way up....Houston, we have a problem.

I do not know what ever became of that situation but always wondered what that young preacher did. Did he begin to preach to them they would be lost if they did not show at services and put money in the collection plate? But how could he ever tell them that with a straight face? Did he just back off the topic mentioning it very rarely, if ever, again? Did he get fired? What a predicament.

He should have preached Haggai 2 and Malachi 3 along with OSAS so the crowd could come meet up at the church late Sunday morning for entertainments in the afternoon while willingly pay for membership. Experience, experience...

 

[SeaBass]

No scripture, no proof of anything, just an apocryphal story.

A funny book was written called "How to Become a Bishop without being Religious." The author's (humorous argument) was like this:

Since a church is a business, one adjusts theology to that end. Thus, even if these are incompatible claims, one preaches these 2 things:

1) Total Depravity: This produces guilt.
2) Salvation by Works: Then one proclaims that salvation is by works, so they should give money to the church.

Actually knowing that God loved me and sent His Son to pay for my sins, has never made me feel like sinning; rather it makes me appreciate the great love of my Savior and His love constrains me to want to please Him in every way.

Freely you have received,
Freely give.

For by grace you have been saved through faith,
and that not of yourselves,
not of works lest anyone should boast.

It was just a story that relates to the effects false teachings can have.

(BTW. the church is not a business.)

 

[SeaBass]

He should have preached Haggai 2 and Malachi 3 along with OSAS so the crowd could come meet up at the church late Sunday morning for entertainments in the afternoon while willingly pay for membership. Experience, experience...

He should have bound the law of Moses upon them?

 

[Atwood]

Heb 6:6 "If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

1) falling away could not be possible of eternal security were true.

False. It is quite possible for a man to profess Christianity without ever having been born again, nor actually trusted Christ as Savior, like many church members (indeed myself before I was saved).

1 John explains this:

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they all are not of us."

2) Why would it be impossible to renew them again to repentance?

seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Read the context. Hebrews 6 describes a professor, not a possessor of salvationl Keep reading through 6:9 where it is explained:

9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

But if one quits crucifying and putting to shame 'the reason" to repent, then one can come to repentance as did Simon, Acts 8.

You can't prove much by Simon. Peter told him to repent; but the text doesn't say that he did. Hebrews says it is impossible to renew such a one to repentance.

But no matter:
The professed Christian who falls away in Heb 6 is not a saved person, as he is compared to those who are actually saved.

"But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation,"

The man described in Heb 6 did not have the things that accompany salvation.

the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

 

[Atwood]

It was just a story that relates to the effects false teachings can have.

(BTW. the church is not a business.)

Yes, SeaBass,
The Body of Christ is not a business, it is a permanent union with the Son of God in which He is the head and believers are His members. Union and communion.

When will you trust Christ as Savior, be baptized by the Spirit, and become a member of His catholic Church? (1 Cor 12:13)

"And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee."

"For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."

Why not ask Him today to save you and trust Him to do so?

 

[Atwood]

But you would be promoting Calvinist theology if you are saying Paul is talking about the individual unconditionally being "saved" apart from the group "Christian".

SeaBass, Calvin is irrelevant; it is the Word of God that is relevant. You may as well accuse anyone who teaches the Trinity to be promoting Calvinism, since Calvin believed in the Trinity.

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

 

[Atwood]

First one must be made alive in order to be made alive

EG, now that is brilliant Rocket Science, is it not?

First one must be made alive in order to be made alive

Second, one cannot be saved without being saved.

Third, If Christ is your Savior, then He saves you.

 

[as_i_am]

If once saved always saved is not a heresay, then the demons are saved. Even demons believe that Jesus is Lord and tremble. DEMONS. No one denies that Jesus is Lord except those who do not obey the Holy Spirit when He speaks. Plain and simple.
You listen to flesh ... then it is your master and Jesus does not KNOW you.
Angels were all called sons of God. But the ones who fell still breed lies with men today and make big prideful babies. What is needed in the church today is more meat lovers out of the same people who have been on milk for years, for their own sakes or the Same Lord Jesus who overcame in the Flesh through the same Power will now come upon those like a thief. As one said...i commit adultery one night and i haven't repented and die 10 minutes later...will i be saved?? The answer: Not if He is the supposed Theif that comes unexpected. You have chosen already in whom you served.