It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security
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K
Re: The Topic is Eternal Security
This is a good scripture, once again though there is a simple part that is over looked in these scriptures.
Vs. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Notice is says should walk, not will walk, or have to walk, or we are forced to walk. We are not puppets, and the choice still falls on us to chose to obey to walk the proper way.
So many think that one can not walk the wrong path, as if we are completely controlled by the Holy Spirit and can't make our own decision's ( free will ).
The Holy Spirit is our guide to help us walk properly, not control us.
This is a good scripture, once again though there is a simple part that is over looked in these scriptures.
Vs. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Notice is says should walk, not will walk, or have to walk, or we are forced to walk. We are not puppets, and the choice still falls on us to chose to obey to walk the proper way.
So many think that one can not walk the wrong path, as if we are completely controlled by the Holy Spirit and can't make our own decision's ( free will ).
The Holy Spirit is our guide to help us walk properly, not control us.
It is great to backup claims with scripture, NewB. And I commend you for your attention to the Word. I have quoted Eph 2 on this so many times, that by this time I didn't think it was necessary.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9[/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.
but in the very next verse it says...
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
[SUP]9[/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.
but in the very next verse it says...
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Now, NewB; I wouldn't put the but in there, as to me it is no shock!
Good works must follow salvation.
To postulate what if one is saved & no good works follow is an impossible postulation, like postulating that "He shall save His people from their sins" could be follow by His people not being saved from their sins -- it is like asking, what if a circle is square -- LOL.
We can go on asking what about this and that, what about the heathen who never heard, what if Adam had not sinned on & on.
What is clear is that the Lord Jesus saves His people from their sins, they have eternal life, and never perish.
You say, "I am not skilled" etc.
Actually it is often the case that those who know the least know the most. Intellectual humility before God's Word is an asset in understanding it. However, there are men with the spiritual gift of teaching which the Lord has put in the Church to help the Christian understand the Word.
Good works must follow salvation.
To postulate what if one is saved & no good works follow is an impossible postulation, like postulating that "He shall save His people from their sins" could be follow by His people not being saved from their sins -- it is like asking, what if a circle is square -- LOL.
We can go on asking what about this and that, what about the heathen who never heard, what if Adam had not sinned on & on.
What is clear is that the Lord Jesus saves His people from their sins, they have eternal life, and never perish.
You say, "I am not skilled" etc.
Actually it is often the case that those who know the least know the most. Intellectual humility before God's Word is an asset in understanding it. However, there are men with the spiritual gift of teaching which the Lord has put in the Church to help the Christian understand the Word.
Re: The Topic is Eternal Security
So Kenneth, do you deny the first part of the verse?
"created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained"
Has God before ordained the God works?
God has before ordained that we should . . .
Does that mean that the should is the result of the foreordination?
This is a good scripture, once again though there is a simple part that is over looked in these scriptures.
Vs. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Vs. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
So Kenneth, do you deny the first part of the verse?
"created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained"
Has God before ordained the God works?
God has before ordained that we should . . .
Does that mean that the should is the result of the foreordination?
H
I would relate the 2 "shoulds" in Eph.2:8-19 to the 2 "shoulds" in Jh.3:16. Believers "should" be saved, but they, maybe won't be saved, V16 is all on the human side, but 3:3,5,7,21, are on the God side of salvation, God saves by the New birth, NO question about God's side. The question is on man's side. Repent, trust and obey. Love to all, Hoffco
Re: The Topic is Eternal Security
It is great to backup claims with scripture, NewB. And I commend you for your attention to the Word. I have quoted Eph 2 on this so many times, that by this time I didn't think it was necessary.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9[/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.
but in the very next verse it says...
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
seems like you are tired of me asking questions how else can I understand your position I cannot accept a position unless I am convinced that all the relevant questions are answers. How can I make a decision on something when I cannot answer a question when I am asked? People do this all the time and share their opinions as gospel I don't support that. Post#3562 is opposed to a must walk position as in a command to a should walk position of free will, how do I contend with that? on the one hand I am constrained on the other hand it's free will
[SUP]9[/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.
but in the very next verse it says...
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Now, NewB; I wouldn't put the but in there, as to me it is no shock!
Good works must follow salvation.
To postulate what if one is saved & no good works follow is an impossible postulation, like postulating that "He shall save His people from their sins" could be follow by His people not being saved from their sins -- it is like asking, what if a circle is square -- LOL.
We can go on asking what about this and that, what about the heathen who never heard, what if Adam had not sinned on & on.
What is clear is that the Lord Jesus saves His people from their sins, they have eternal life, and never perish.
You say, "I am not skilled" etc.
Actually it is often the case that those who know the least know the most. Intellectual humility before God's Word is an asset in understanding it. However, there are men with the spiritual gift of teaching which the Lord has put in the Church to help the Christian understand the Word.
Good works must follow salvation.
To postulate what if one is saved & no good works follow is an impossible postulation, like postulating that "He shall save His people from their sins" could be follow by His people not being saved from their sins -- it is like asking, what if a circle is square -- LOL.
We can go on asking what about this and that, what about the heathen who never heard, what if Adam had not sinned on & on.
What is clear is that the Lord Jesus saves His people from their sins, they have eternal life, and never perish.
You say, "I am not skilled" etc.
Actually it is often the case that those who know the least know the most. Intellectual humility before God's Word is an asset in understanding it. However, there are men with the spiritual gift of teaching which the Lord has put in the Church to help the Christian understand the Word.
I would relate the 2 "shoulds" in Eph.2:8-19 to the 2 "shoulds" in Jh.3:16. Believers "should" be saved, but they, maybe won't be saved, V16 is all on the human side, but 3:3,5,7,21, are on the God side of salvation, God saves by the New birth, NO question about God's side. The question is on man's side. Repent, trust and obey. Love to all, Hoffco
In John 3:16 there is no doubt or ought to (you should brush your teeth) expressed by should. The doubt comes in the whosoever believes -- that is the one in doubt. There are whosoever wills & whosoever won'ts. But saying that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, does not cast doubt on the connection between believing and not-perishing. That is clear from many other passages. The passage is not saying that the Lord Jesus died on the cross so that if anyone believes he may have a chance to be saved.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him. He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God.
He that believeth on him is not judged
[The text does not mean that the believer has a chance not to be judged; non-judged is the promise to the believer.]
he that believeth not hath been judged already,
[the text does not mean that the disbeliever has a chance at non-judgment; he stands under judgment as a fact]
because he hath not believed on the name of the only Son of God.
[Believing would guarantee non-judgment.]
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Re: The Topic is Eternal Security
It is great to backup claims with scripture, NewB. And I commend you for your attention to the Word. I have quoted Eph 2 on this so many times, that by this time I didn't think it was necessary.
Don't think that, NewB, I have positive regard for you and admire your attention to the text and to the will of the Lord.
I don't understand your post 3562 question.
And I don't worry a lot about free will, though it is a difficult concept. Making choices & obeying is our part; election and predestination are the Lord's work; and we'll understand it better bye & bye. I think that in the end we will realize that everything good was by God's grace; sin will be our own fault, salvation His "fault."
Meanwhile, it is ours to trust the Savior. We are even promised that we shall freely receive all things. We see through a glass darkly, but then face to face.
Meanwhile some things are crystal clear. We must trust our Savior who loves us so.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9[/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.
but in the very next verse it says...
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
seems like you are tired of me asking questions how else can I understand your position I cannot accept a position unless I am convinced that all the relevant questions are answers. How can I make a decision on something when I cannot answer a question when I am asked? People do this all the time and share their opinions as gospel I don't support that. Post#3562 is opposed to a must walk position as in a command to a should walk position of free will, how do I contend with that? on the one hand I am constrained on the other hand it's free will
[SUP]9[/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.
but in the very next verse it says...
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
seems like you are tired of me asking questions how else can I understand your position I cannot accept a position unless I am convinced that all the relevant questions are answers. How can I make a decision on something when I cannot answer a question when I am asked? People do this all the time and share their opinions as gospel I don't support that. Post#3562 is opposed to a must walk position as in a command to a should walk position of free will, how do I contend with that? on the one hand I am constrained on the other hand it's free will
I don't understand your post 3562 question.
And I don't worry a lot about free will, though it is a difficult concept. Making choices & obeying is our part; election and predestination are the Lord's work; and we'll understand it better bye & bye. I think that in the end we will realize that everything good was by God's grace; sin will be our own fault, salvation His "fault."
Meanwhile, it is ours to trust the Savior. We are even promised that we shall freely receive all things. We see through a glass darkly, but then face to face.
Meanwhile some things are crystal clear. We must trust our Savior who loves us so.
K
Let me show you something:
[h=3]Ezekiel 18:24-26[/h] But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die. “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear now, O house of Israel: Is my way not just? Is it not your ways that are not just? When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice, he shall die for it; for the injustice that he has done he shall die.
This is from the old testament, now lets look at something with the same sentiment from the new:
2 Peter 2:20-22
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”
Both of these say the same thing from the old and new testaments, just different wording.
[h=3]Ezekiel 18:24-26[/h] But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die. “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear now, O house of Israel: Is my way not just? Is it not your ways that are not just? When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice, he shall die for it; for the injustice that he has done he shall die.
This is from the old testament, now lets look at something with the same sentiment from the new:
2 Peter 2:20-22
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”
Both of these say the same thing from the old and new testaments, just different wording.
Re: The Topic is Eternal Security
so far everything seems ok we can move on...but I did not get a response to this .
.By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.How do we love God and neighbour as self, this does not happen by wishful thinking because it is practical and takes effort. How many times have we seen people in need and turned a blind eye? Do we have to be continually doing good works? If we stop doing good works will it have any effect on our salvation? We have to be very sure here because it is eternal life we are talking about.
It is great to backup claims with scripture, NewB. And I commend you for your attention to the Word. I have quoted Eph 2 on this so many times, that by this time I didn't think it was necessary.
Don't think that, NewB, I have positive regard for you and admire your attention to the text and to the will of the Lord.
I don't understand your post 3562 question.
And I don't worry a lot about free will, though it is a difficult concept. Making choices & obeying is our part; election and predestination are the Lord's work; and we'll understand it better bye & bye. I think that in the end we will realize that everything good was by God's grace; sin will be our own fault, salvation His "fault."
Meanwhile, it is ours to trust the Savior. We are even promised that we shall freely receive all things. We see through a glass darkly, but then face to face.
Meanwhile some things are crystal clear. We must trust our Savior who loves us so.
Don't think that, NewB, I have positive regard for you and admire your attention to the text and to the will of the Lord.
I don't understand your post 3562 question.
And I don't worry a lot about free will, though it is a difficult concept. Making choices & obeying is our part; election and predestination are the Lord's work; and we'll understand it better bye & bye. I think that in the end we will realize that everything good was by God's grace; sin will be our own fault, salvation His "fault."
Meanwhile, it is ours to trust the Savior. We are even promised that we shall freely receive all things. We see through a glass darkly, but then face to face.
Meanwhile some things are crystal clear. We must trust our Savior who loves us so.
.By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.How do we love God and neighbour as self, this does not happen by wishful thinking because it is practical and takes effort. How many times have we seen people in need and turned a blind eye? Do we have to be continually doing good works? If we stop doing good works will it have any effect on our salvation? We have to be very sure here because it is eternal life we are talking about.
K
Luke 13:6-9
6He also spoke this parable: “A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. 7Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, ‘Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?’ 8But he answered and said to him, ‘Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it. 9And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down. "
This is another parable given by Jesus about how the kingdom of heaven will be like. Fruit is referred to good works, fertilize it is referred to ministering the gospel to bring one to repentance and produce good works, and then if after ministering the gospel if it still does not produce fruit ( good works ). Then the cut it down ( cut out of salvation ) applies.
6He also spoke this parable: “A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. 7Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, ‘Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?’ 8But he answered and said to him, ‘Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it. 9And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down. "
This is another parable given by Jesus about how the kingdom of heaven will be like. Fruit is referred to good works, fertilize it is referred to ministering the gospel to bring one to repentance and produce good works, and then if after ministering the gospel if it still does not produce fruit ( good works ). Then the cut it down ( cut out of salvation ) applies.
Re: ES Is Attested to By Bible & Ancient "Church Fathers"
Who are the others? Augustine didn't come on the scene until several hundred years after Christ and taught several heretical doctrines, one of which was "Perseverance of the Saint." However, as can be seen the church rejected it. He was a Manichean before he became a Christians and brought some his beliefs into the church. Origen who was about 200 years earlier addressed this.
Origen De Principiis
8. Let us begin, then, with what is said about Pharaoh—that he was hardened by God, that he might not send away the people; along with which will be examined also the statement of the apostle, “Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth.” And certain of those who hold different opinions misuse these passages, themselves also almost destroying free-will by introducing ruined natures incapable of salvation, and others saved which it is impossible can be lost; and Pharaoh, they say, as being of a ruined nature, is therefore hardened by God, who has mercy upon the spiritual, but hardens the earthly. Let us see now what they mean. For we shall ask them if Pharaoh was of an earthy nature; and when they answer, we shall say that he who is of an earthy nature is altogether disobedient to God: but if disobedient, what need is there of his heart being hardened, and that not once, but frequently? Unless perhaps, since it was possible for him to obey (in which case he would certainly have obeyed, as not being earthy, when hard pressed by the signs and wonders), God needs him to be disobedient to a greater degree, in order that He may manifest His mighty deeds for the salvation of the multitude, and therefore hardens his heart. This will be our answer to them in the first place, in order to overturn their supposition that Pharaoh was of a ruined nature. And the same reply must be given to them with respect to the statement of the apostle. For whom does God harden? Those who perish, as if they would obey unless they were hardened, or manifestly those who would be saved because they are not of a ruined nature. And on whom has He mercy? Is it on those who are to be saved? And how is there need of a second mercy for those who have been prepared once for salvation, and who will by all means become blessed on account of their nature? Unless perhaps, since they are capable of incurring destruction, if they did not receive mercy, they will obtain mercy, in order that they may not incur that destruction of which they are capable, but may be in the condition of those who are saved. And this is our answer to such persons.
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.
Who did He give that to? The sheep, who were the sheep? The house of Israel.
Notice all of the verbs are past tense. If you read it in context you'll see that it's talking about the past not the future.
Again, if you look at this passage in context you'll see that the good work was supporting Paul's ministry.
You see, if you stop proof texting and read the passages in context it becomes clear that the passages aren't saying what you claim. We could actually do this with every passage you posted.
I didn't say the doctrine didn't exist, I said it wasn't accepted in the church. It definitely existed, it was doctrine of Gnosticism.
Not at all. You haven't shown anything that shows it was an accepted church doctrine. I didn't say the doctrine didn't exist I said it wasn't accepted by the church. And, it most certainly wasn't taught in the Scriptures or you could have shown me a place were it was taught but you haven't instead you supplied passages in which you inferred that idea.
Seriously?
No they didn't, see the quote from Origen.
[/COLOR]
Butch, why do you think that you can just say things and have it believed. What you say is nonsense, & I have plastered the forum with scripture. I think your mind is closed because you have made the human tradition of your denomination superior to the Word of God. Many passages teach eternal security. And you cannot quote me even one verse in the Bible where the words "salvation" and "lose" are even in the same verse. There is no such scripture.[/quote]
You've plastered the forum with proof texts rather than exegesis. And, as yet you've not shown a single passage of Scripture that says one cannot lose their salvation. You said, "And you cannot quote me even one verse in the Bible where the words "salvation" and "lose" are even in the same verse. There is no such scripture." yet you can't provide one.
This passage says it's through faith. If one loses faith then they lose what the passage says.
He's the author and finisher of the Christian faith.
Yes, the sheep. He said that to Israel.
Yes, look at the context, it's talking about their support for Paul's ministry.
Augustine wrote about the large variety of views of salvation that existed in his day, including some that involved some form of eternal security:
"I must now, I see, enter the lists of amicable controversy with those tender-hearted Christianswho decline to believe that any, . . . of those whom the . . . Judge may pronounce worthy . . . hell, shall suffer eternally, and who suppose that they shall be delivered after a fixed term of punishment . . . In respect of this matter, Origen . . . believed that even the devil himself and his angels . . . should be delivered from their torment, . . . . But the Church, not without reason, condemned him for this and other errors...
There are others, . . . who, . . . attribute to God a still greater compassion towards men. . . . when the judgment comes, mercy will prevail. . . .
So, too, there are others who promise this deliverance from eternal punishment, not, indeed, to all men, but only to those who have been washed in Christian baptism, and who become partakers of the body of Christ, no matter how they have lived, or what heresy or impiety they have fallen into. They ground this opinion on the saying of Jesus, 'This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that if any man eat thereof, he shall not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If a man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever.' Therefore, say they, it follows that these persons must be delivered from death eternal, and at one time or other be introduced to everlasting life.
There are others still who make this promise not even to all who have received the sacraments of the baptism of Christ and of His body, but only to the Catholics,however badly they have lived. For these . . . being incorporated in His body, as the apostle says, 'We, being many, are one bread, one body;' so that, though they have afterwards lapsed into some heresy, or even into heathenism and idolatry, yet by virtue of this one thing, that they have received the baptism of Christ, and eaten the body of Christ, in the body of Christ, that is to say, in the catholic Church, they shall not die eternally, but at one time or other obtain eternal life; and all that wickedness of theirs shall not avail to make their punishment eternal, but only proportionately long and severe....
But, say they [others], the catholic Christians have Christ for a foundation, and they have not fallen away from union with Him, no matter how depraved a life they have built on this foundation, as wood, hay, stubble; and accordingly the well-directed faith by whichChrist is their foundation will suffice to deliver them some time from the continuance of that fire, though it be with loss, since those things they have built on it shall be burned." (The City Of God, 21:17-20, 21:22, 21:26)
Some other examples:
"Saint Jerome, though an enemy of Origen, was, when it came to salvation, more of an Origenist than Ambrose. He believed that all sinners, all mortal beings, with the exception of Satan, atheists, and the ungodly, would be saved: 'Just as we believe that the torments of the Devil, of all the deniers of God, of the ungodly who have said in their hearts, 'there is no God,' will be eternal, so too do we believe that the judgment of Christian sinners, whose works will be tried and purged in fire will be moderate and mixed with clemency.' Furthermore, 'He who with all his spirit has placed his faith in Christ, even if he die in sin, shall by his faith live forever.'" (Jacques Le Goff, The Birth Of Purgatory [Chicago, Illinois: The University of Chicago Press, 1986], p. 61)
"Jerome develops the same distinction, stating that, while the Devil and the impious who have denied God will be tortured without remission, those who have trusted in Christ, even if they have sinned and fallen away, will eventually be saved. Much the same teaching appears in
Ambrose, developed in greater detail." (J.N.D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines [San Francisco, California: HarperCollins Publishers, 1978], p. 484)
"Like Hilary and Ambrose,
Ambrosiaster distinguishes three categories: the saints and the righteous, who will go directly to heaven at the time of the resurrection; the ungodly, apostates, infidels, and atheists, who will go directly into the fiery torments of Hell; and the ordinary Christians, who, though sinners, will first pay their debt and for a time be purified by fire but then go to Paradise because they had the faith. Commenting on Paul, Ambrosiaster writes:
'He [Paul] said: 'yet so as by fire,' because this salvation exists not without pain; for he did not say, 'he shall be saved by fire,' but when he says, 'yet so as by fire,' he wants to show that this salvation is to come, but that he must suffer the pains of fire; so that, purged by fire, he may be saved and not, like the infidels [perfidi], tormented forever by eternal fire; if for a portion of his works he has some value, it is because he believed in Christ.'" (Jacques Le Goff, The Birth Of Purgatory [Chicago, Illinois: The University of Chicago Press, 1986], p. 61)
"we find Ambrosiaster teaching that, while the really wicked, 'will be tormented with everlasting punishment',the chastisement of Christian sinners will be of a temporary duration." (J.N.D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines [San Francisco, California: HarperCollins Publishers, 1978], p. 484)
"I must now, I see, enter the lists of amicable controversy with those tender-hearted Christianswho decline to believe that any, . . . of those whom the . . . Judge may pronounce worthy . . . hell, shall suffer eternally, and who suppose that they shall be delivered after a fixed term of punishment . . . In respect of this matter, Origen . . . believed that even the devil himself and his angels . . . should be delivered from their torment, . . . . But the Church, not without reason, condemned him for this and other errors...
There are others, . . . who, . . . attribute to God a still greater compassion towards men. . . . when the judgment comes, mercy will prevail. . . .
So, too, there are others who promise this deliverance from eternal punishment, not, indeed, to all men, but only to those who have been washed in Christian baptism, and who become partakers of the body of Christ, no matter how they have lived, or what heresy or impiety they have fallen into. They ground this opinion on the saying of Jesus, 'This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that if any man eat thereof, he shall not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If a man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever.' Therefore, say they, it follows that these persons must be delivered from death eternal, and at one time or other be introduced to everlasting life.
There are others still who make this promise not even to all who have received the sacraments of the baptism of Christ and of His body, but only to the Catholics,however badly they have lived. For these . . . being incorporated in His body, as the apostle says, 'We, being many, are one bread, one body;' so that, though they have afterwards lapsed into some heresy, or even into heathenism and idolatry, yet by virtue of this one thing, that they have received the baptism of Christ, and eaten the body of Christ, in the body of Christ, that is to say, in the catholic Church, they shall not die eternally, but at one time or other obtain eternal life; and all that wickedness of theirs shall not avail to make their punishment eternal, but only proportionately long and severe....
But, say they [others], the catholic Christians have Christ for a foundation, and they have not fallen away from union with Him, no matter how depraved a life they have built on this foundation, as wood, hay, stubble; and accordingly the well-directed faith by whichChrist is their foundation will suffice to deliver them some time from the continuance of that fire, though it be with loss, since those things they have built on it shall be burned." (The City Of God, 21:17-20, 21:22, 21:26)
Some other examples:
"Saint Jerome, though an enemy of Origen, was, when it came to salvation, more of an Origenist than Ambrose. He believed that all sinners, all mortal beings, with the exception of Satan, atheists, and the ungodly, would be saved: 'Just as we believe that the torments of the Devil, of all the deniers of God, of the ungodly who have said in their hearts, 'there is no God,' will be eternal, so too do we believe that the judgment of Christian sinners, whose works will be tried and purged in fire will be moderate and mixed with clemency.' Furthermore, 'He who with all his spirit has placed his faith in Christ, even if he die in sin, shall by his faith live forever.'" (Jacques Le Goff, The Birth Of Purgatory [Chicago, Illinois: The University of Chicago Press, 1986], p. 61)
"Jerome develops the same distinction, stating that, while the Devil and the impious who have denied God will be tortured without remission, those who have trusted in Christ, even if they have sinned and fallen away, will eventually be saved. Much the same teaching appears in
Ambrose, developed in greater detail." (J.N.D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines [San Francisco, California: HarperCollins Publishers, 1978], p. 484)
"Like Hilary and Ambrose,
Ambrosiaster distinguishes three categories: the saints and the righteous, who will go directly to heaven at the time of the resurrection; the ungodly, apostates, infidels, and atheists, who will go directly into the fiery torments of Hell; and the ordinary Christians, who, though sinners, will first pay their debt and for a time be purified by fire but then go to Paradise because they had the faith. Commenting on Paul, Ambrosiaster writes:
'He [Paul] said: 'yet so as by fire,' because this salvation exists not without pain; for he did not say, 'he shall be saved by fire,' but when he says, 'yet so as by fire,' he wants to show that this salvation is to come, but that he must suffer the pains of fire; so that, purged by fire, he may be saved and not, like the infidels [perfidi], tormented forever by eternal fire; if for a portion of his works he has some value, it is because he believed in Christ.'" (Jacques Le Goff, The Birth Of Purgatory [Chicago, Illinois: The University of Chicago Press, 1986], p. 61)
"we find Ambrosiaster teaching that, while the really wicked, 'will be tormented with everlasting punishment',the chastisement of Christian sinners will be of a temporary duration." (J.N.D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines [San Francisco, California: HarperCollins Publishers, 1978], p. 484)
Who are the others? Augustine didn't come on the scene until several hundred years after Christ and taught several heretical doctrines, one of which was "Perseverance of the Saint." However, as can be seen the church rejected it. He was a Manichean before he became a Christians and brought some his beliefs into the church. Origen who was about 200 years earlier addressed this.
Origen De Principiis
8. Let us begin, then, with what is said about Pharaoh—that he was hardened by God, that he might not send away the people; along with which will be examined also the statement of the apostle, “Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth.” And certain of those who hold different opinions misuse these passages, themselves also almost destroying free-will by introducing ruined natures incapable of salvation, and others saved which it is impossible can be lost; and Pharaoh, they say, as being of a ruined nature, is therefore hardened by God, who has mercy upon the spiritual, but hardens the earthly. Let us see now what they mean. For we shall ask them if Pharaoh was of an earthy nature; and when they answer, we shall say that he who is of an earthy nature is altogether disobedient to God: but if disobedient, what need is there of his heart being hardened, and that not once, but frequently? Unless perhaps, since it was possible for him to obey (in which case he would certainly have obeyed, as not being earthy, when hard pressed by the signs and wonders), God needs him to be disobedient to a greater degree, in order that He may manifest His mighty deeds for the salvation of the multitude, and therefore hardens his heart. This will be our answer to them in the first place, in order to overturn their supposition that Pharaoh was of a ruined nature. And the same reply must be given to them with respect to the statement of the apostle. For whom does God harden? Those who perish, as if they would obey unless they were hardened, or manifestly those who would be saved because they are not of a ruined nature. And on whom has He mercy? Is it on those who are to be saved? And how is there need of a second mercy for those who have been prepared once for salvation, and who will by all means become blessed on account of their nature? Unless perhaps, since they are capable of incurring destruction, if they did not receive mercy, they will obtain mercy, in order that they may not incur that destruction of which they are capable, but may be in the condition of those who are saved. And this is our answer to such persons.
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.
What a false denial of the plain statement of scripture!
"I give them eternal life & they shall never perish."
"I give them eternal life & they shall never perish."
foreknew-foreordained-called-justified-glorified.
This is an unbreakable chain. & nothing can separate the Christian from the special love in Christ Jesus.
This is an unbreakable chain. & nothing can separate the Christian from the special love in Christ Jesus.
He who began a good work in you will complete it, and much more.
You see, if you stop proof texting and read the passages in context it becomes clear that the passages aren't saying what you claim. We could actually do this with every passage you posted.
The evidence is there Butch on the Church Fathers. They show that in their times Eternal Security was a doctrine in existence.
Now what you are doing is called moving the goal post Butch. Your contention was that Eternal Security did not exist until 500 years ago. What proves it was accepted Church Doctrine is that it is in the NT taught most explicitly. Your denomination is not the Church, Butch. No Eastern or Western, Northern or Southern denomination is the Church.
If you would be in the Church, I recommend that you trust Christ as Savior, & repent of writing Him off as a chance giver.
The earliest writers did not fight against Eternal Security taught it & did not fight vs it at all: John, Paul, Peter.
[/COLOR]
Butch, why do you think that you can just say things and have it believed. What you say is nonsense, & I have plastered the forum with scripture. I think your mind is closed because you have made the human tradition of your denomination superior to the Word of God. Many passages teach eternal security. And you cannot quote me even one verse in the Bible where the words "salvation" and "lose" are even in the same verse. There is no such scripture.[/quote]
You've plastered the forum with proof texts rather than exegesis. And, as yet you've not shown a single passage of Scripture that says one cannot lose their salvation. You said, "And you cannot quote me even one verse in the Bible where the words "salvation" and "lose" are even in the same verse. There is no such scripture." yet you can't provide one.
1 Peter 1
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto
an inheritance
incorruptible, and
undefiled, and
that fadeth not away,
reserved in heaven for you,
who by the power of God are guarded
through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto
an inheritance
incorruptible, and
undefiled, and
that fadeth not away,
reserved in heaven for you,
who by the power of God are guarded
through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Jesus Christ is the author & pefecter of our faith; he saves to the uttermost.
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.
He who began a good work in you will complete it.
Nonsense. I have posted to you a host of evidence. You look at it and let the Spirit convict you of the truth.
Pasa graphē theopneustos. It is all God's word. But if you want Christ, John, Peter, & Paul, I quoted them already. Read it.
Actually you need a proof text where the doctrine that a person who is saved is in fact saved began to be denied!
Butch, are you willing to accept my exegesis if it conflicts with your denomination? Are you even willing to believe God's Word if it conflicts with your denominational human tradition? Look at the verses for yourself. When it began is not important, but the fact that God teaches it is.
Actually you need a proof text where the doctrine that a person who is saved is in fact saved began to be denied!
Butch, are you willing to accept my exegesis if it conflicts with your denomination? Are you even willing to believe God's Word if it conflicts with your denominational human tradition? Look at the verses for yourself. When it began is not important, but the fact that God teaches it is.
The doctrine is found in the Psalms. Ps 23 has David's name on its top, David the adulterer & murderer of the husband:
"Surely goodness & mercy shall follow me all the days of my life,
And I will dwell in the House of the Lord forever."
Surely . . . all the days . . . forever.
"Surely goodness & mercy shall follow me all the days of my life,
And I will dwell in the House of the Lord forever."
Surely . . . all the days . . . forever.
So you have enough evidence. Accept Christ as your Savior, or at your peril continue to write Him off as a mere "chance-giver."
Thou shalt all His name Jesus,
for he will save His people from their sins.
(no ifs, ands, or maybes).
for he will save His people from their sins.
(no ifs, ands, or maybes).
The Overcomer is guaranteed not to have His name blotted out of the book of Life. And we are told that the Overcomer is the believer.
THE OVERCOMER
Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them, and betheir God: and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away.
And he that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he saith, Write: for these words are faithful and true. And he said unto me, They are come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.
The proof is conclusive. Accept Christ as your Savior, or at your peril continue to write Him off as a mere "chance-giver."
Thou shalt all His name Jesus,
for he will save His people from their sins.
(no ifs, ands, or maybes).
And he that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he saith, Write: for these words are faithful and true. And he said unto me, They are come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.
The proof is conclusive. Accept Christ as your Savior, or at your peril continue to write Him off as a mere "chance-giver."
Thou shalt all His name Jesus,
for he will save His people from their sins.
(no ifs, ands, or maybes).
Also, putting you words in large letters doesn't help make you case.
H
To Atwood .you are dead wrong, Jesus did die on the cross for every soul on earth so they would have a "Chance " to be saved. Jesus even went to Hell and preached the Gospel so those in Hell could have a chance to repent trust and obey Him and have eternal life. Peter says this in 1Pet.3:18-20"...He went and preached to the spirits in prison," and in 1Pet.4:6"...that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." It is my personal opinion, that, those who don't have a "chance" to hear and be saved in live, will be given the opportunity ,some time after death, to believe in Jesus; Because God is/will be JUST. But the bottom line is still, ONLY those who are elected by God to eternal life will repent,believe and obey. I can believe that God could be merciful enough to save some fro Hell. We don't know all the will of God.! I am not a hyper calvinist, I am a Biblical theologian
To Atwood .you are dead wrong, Jesus did die on the cross for every soul on earth so they would have a "Chance " to be saved.
You attack a strong man, and your attack is unfounded. The question is not about person who do not trust Christ as Savior, whether or not they have a chance. Indeed the gospel is to whosoever will. And any theory you may have about preaching in Hades before the ascension is irrelevant.
Eternal security addresses the status of His people; persons who trust Him as Savior, not as chance-giver.
The Lord Jesus is the Savior of those who believe, not a mere "chance giver."
Any theory on preaching in Hades is irrelevant.
"Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins."
The text does not say, "He shall give His people a chance at Heaven."
If anyone has written off the Lord Jesus as a mere chance-giver, that person is urged to trust the Lord Jesus as Savior. Depend on Him for your eternal destiny.
Not a single passage said salvation cannot be lost. You're simply inferring that from the passages you posted.
On the contrary, the concept of salvation being lost is foreign to scripture. There is not lone passage where salvation & lost even appear in the same verse. The big pile of scripture I posted proclaims the eternal security of the one who trusts in Christ, His people, His sheep. It is the direct statement of the scriptures.
Deny all you want; here it is for the readers to judge:
Jehovah redeemeth the soul of his servants;
And none of them that take refuge in him shall be condemned.
Ps 52
But as for me, I am like a green olive-tree in the house of God:
I trust in the lovingkindness of God for ever and ever.
I will give thee thanks for ever, because thou hast done it;
1 Thes 5 end:
"And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He Who calls you, Who will also do it.
Col 3
If then ye were raised together with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated on the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things that are above, not on the things that are upon the earth. For ye died, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall be manifested, then shall ye also with him be manifested in glory.
2 Thes 2:16
Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace, comfort your hearts and establish them in every good work and word.
End of Rom 8:
And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose. For whom
he foreknew,
he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom
he foreordained, them
he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom
he justified, them
he also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 3He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth; who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
THE OVERCOMER
Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God: and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away. And he that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he saith, Write: for these words are faithful and true. And he said unto me, They are come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.
In II Thess. 3:3 “But the Lord is faithful, who shall establish you, and guard you from the evil one.”
In II Tim. 1:12 he sounds a note of rejoicing: “For I know Him whom I have believed, and I am persuaded that He is able to guard that which I have committed unto Him against that day.”
4:18 glories in the fact that the Lord will deliver him from every evil work and will save him unto His heavenly kingdom.
2 Tim 1:8-9
… God; who saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal,
2 thes 2:16-17 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace, comfort your hearts and establish them in every good work and word.
Rm 6:23b
the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
John 10:27-29
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
2 Corinthians 1:22
And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
1 John 5:10-13
Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
Romans 11:6
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
Romans 8:34
Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Philippians 3:20-21
But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.
Ps 138
"thy right hand will save me.
YHWH will perfect that which concerns me:"
Ephesians 1:13
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in
For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Hebrews 10:14
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
John 4:14
But whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.
John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Psalm 34:22
The Lord redeems the life of his servants; none of those who take refuge in him will be condemned.
Jude 1:24
Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy,
1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Colossians 1:13
He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,
Romans 8:32
He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?
Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus
John 1:12
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
Hebrews 9:15
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
Ephesians 1:1-23
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus
Ephesians 1:11
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.
On the contrary, the concept of salvation being lost is foreign to scripture. There is not lone passage where salvation & lost even appear in the same verse. The big pile of scripture I posted proclaims the eternal security of the one who trusts in Christ, His people, His sheep. It is the direct statement of the scriptures.
K
To the readers of this thread, Eternal security is a lie. With that said ET is God's will, I meant ask your self if it;s God's will that no man should perish but that all should repent to everlasting life. But that is not reality is it. Why did''nt God secure the eternity of Adam? Was it God's will for Adam to eat the fruit?
Is it His will for you to believe the lie of OSAS. No matter what you do? Atwood would lie to you and tell that is so. I would rather tell you the truth.
Atwood and friends would say that if you sin you were never saved and that is a lie. The word of God say's different.
The fact is that Atwood and Friends are bound by sin, theyt will never admit because it would throw a hole in their doctrine.
It is self righteousness, they place more emphasis on baptism than the cross. In fact they potty on the cross and wipe their feet on it and have no need of it.. they have accepted the cross but have denied the power thereof.
Paul, nor Peter, nor Luke or James has committed to OSAS.
Is it His will for you to believe the lie of OSAS. No matter what you do? Atwood would lie to you and tell that is so. I would rather tell you the truth.
Atwood and friends would say that if you sin you were never saved and that is a lie. The word of God say's different.
The fact is that Atwood and Friends are bound by sin, theyt will never admit because it would throw a hole in their doctrine.
It is self righteousness, they place more emphasis on baptism than the cross. In fact they potty on the cross and wipe their feet on it and have no need of it.. they have accepted the cross but have denied the power thereof.
Paul, nor Peter, nor Luke or James has committed to OSAS.