It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

[eternally-gratefull]

Another assumption, I never said you have to earn salvation.

Lets stop right here, and then I will get to the rest of your response.

How can you sit there and be honest with yourself and say your NOT saying we have to earn salvation when you claim.

1. Salvation can be lost
2. Eternal life is not real until after this life, and only if you did what was required (ie earned it)
3. Claim salvation is based on what we do, or do not do. Which is by its true defenition means your trying to earn it.

Are you able to be honest with yourself?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Works out of love do apply.

A work is a work is a work. A work is something you do to earn something.

it does not matter if they are out of love or not. If your doing it to earn something (which you are) then it is a work of merit.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I did not make a mistake by quoting Peter, he is talking to those in a saved state. And he clearly says old sins, not future. And when put with other scriptures in the bible it shows that you must repent/ask for forgiveness of your sins when you commit them.

Yes you did Because you ignore the fact peter told them to make sure their salvation was real (confirmed) why does one have to make sure their salvation is real if they are already saved.

The sin issue of what he said is not even come into play. other than to say are you sinning because your not elect.

The term "old sin" refers to his old nature. Not the sins he committed in the past. The rest of the NT confirms this interpretation.

It says if you do not repent you will not be pure.

The word repent is not even used. He said.

Make sure your calling and election is sure, confirmed, real, verified.

It is like James, Can faith without works save you. Make sure your faith is confirmed, and not dead. because a dead faith will save no one

 

[Atwood]

1st Peter 1:5-10
. . .
has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble.

Notice Peter says only [false] cleansed from old sins, not cleansed from future sins [false].

Where does the word only occur in the text??? Nowhere. Where does it say, "not cleansed from future sins"??? Nowhere.

1 John 2: "I write unto you, my little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name’s sake."

the word "old" does not occur here.

Heb 10:

Lo, I am come to do thy will. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By which will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest indeed standeth day by day ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, the which can never take away sins: but he, when he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; henceforth expecting till his enemies be made the footstool of his feet. For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified. And the Holy Spirit also beareth witness to us; for after he hath said,
This is the covenant that I will make with them
After those days, saith the Lord:
I will put my laws on their heart,
And upon their mind also will I write them;
then saith he,
And their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


The believer could not be sanctified by Christ's death on the cross once for all without forgiveness of all sins (even future ones -- in fact, when Christ died all our sins were future).

He could not have perfected forever the believer by that one sacrifice if all the sins were not forgiven. The only sins that pertained to us were all future.

Can you not bring yourself to repent of consigning the Lord Jesus to the role of "chance-giver" and actually trust Him to get you to Heaven, trust Him with your eternal destiny?

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save Him people from their sins.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Why do I not move from my stance that eternal life is a present possession.

Because I will not lie or water down the gospel message when a new believer wants to come to me for answers. I will teach them the same warnings that our Lord Jesus, and the apostles gave us to look for to keep one from stumbling, falling away, and being deceived.

If you do not teach the warnings to people who are wanting to come to the faith in Jesus Christ. They could easily be fooled and drawn away by a false teaching. Paul gave us many warnings of false teachers who came in and drawn some away do to lack of understanding/teaching.

If the only thing you teach others is believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and you will be saved. But fail to teach what Jesus said, and the rest of the new testament that tells us how one in Christ should walk.

Then it will lead to some of the same false teachings that some are fooled into believing now days, that one can go on and keep sinning wilfully with out repentance/ forgiveness, and the message that it is still ok to hate some people, and then it has gone so far and bad that we now have this new age religion that Oprah is apart of that teaches you don't even have to believe in Jesus to get to heaven. ( These three are just a few that are leading so many down a dangerous road. )

Kenneth, how can you be so stubborn as not to admit that the Bible teaches that believers in the Savior (not the "mere chance-giver") have eternal life as a present possession. I posted you the proof positive. As an example, 1 John tells believers that they presently have eternal life -- it is not just an award in the future.



As there is a doctrine of separation in the Bible, it follows that Christians are to determine who seems to be a Christian and who seems not to be.

From all you have posted, it appears to me that you do not trust Christ as Savior, but regard Him as a chance-giver; moreover, you have endorsed salvation by works, like water baptism. I have only good desires for you. If I understand you right, you are much as I used to be, a religious church member who thought he had "accepted Christ." But as I had no assurance of going to Heaven when I died, and as I had been indoctrinated on Mat 25 being the "plan of salvation" (tho not in those terms), I think I understand you. And I see that you do not trust Christ to get you to Heaven; for you it is uncertain and depends on yourself.

I commend you for noticing that antichrist is in context, though the emphasis is plural, antichrists. But when the text says
"if they had been of us, they would have continued with us," that cannot mean that antichrists would have continued. Prophet John is not saying that if the antichrists had been of us (and they could have been), the antichrists would have continued with us. It is obvious that no antichrists were in the Body of Christ. What the text is saying is that true believers continue, and if someone leaves it implies they were never part of the Body of Christ. The antichrists are an example of that.


"Little children, it is the last hour: and as ye heard that antichrist cometh, even now have there arisen many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they all are not of us."

And note the strong affirmation of eternal security: "they would have continued."

"The ones that fall do to trials and tribulations they face in life and don't endure through them are not forms of antichrists. They do not pervert or corrupt the gospel as antichrists do, they lose their faith."

Are you aware, Kenneth, that you are making up those last 2 sentences? Is it not scripture there, but you. You have this doctrinal theory on losing salvation; and even if you have no proof, you insist on it. "Losing salvation/eternal life" is not a Bible category.

if they had been of us, they would have continued with us:

That which guarantees the "continue" is not being an antichrist, it is being an "of us," that is, part of the Body of Christ, which is what believers are.]

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.[/QUOTE]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I do not deny believing in Christ to be saved.

Belief is not enough, thats your problem Faith saved. many believe in christ and have never been saved, if belief was enough. Anyone who believes in christ will be saved, we both know this is not true.

What gets me is why when I put a scripture out there where either Jesus, Peter, Paul, James, John, or any other apostle says what you must do to be saved. You and Atwood deny it, say it doesn't apply when it does, or refuse to even see what it says.

What gets me is when we show Peter, Jesus, John, James and everyone say our salvation is secure, You deny it.

You seem to think everyone who goes to church is at one time is saved, and then loses it. This can not be found, if it is true, then salvation is merited.

Did you not just say you r not tryign to earn salvation? which is it?

Out of love I am trying to show you the truth, and I pray to God through our Lord Jesus Christ with much sorrow that your eyes will be opened.

Same goes here.

But like I said, I KNOW I am saved, I KNOW God will never depart from me

I Know even when I am faithless, God is faithfull for he can not deny himself

I Know he who began a good work in me will continue it until the day of Christ.

All you can give me is fear and no hope. Thanks but you can have that, you believe you do well. even demons believe and tremble. I pray you get on your knees, And can be assured all God promised you he will give it to you.

Our Lord Jesus said the path to eternal life is narrow and difficult, not easy. That is what the philosophy of mere belief does, is makes it easy.

yep, and is it not funny how so many different forms of legalism we have seen in this chat room alone 9there are so many more)

and how narrow and few there are who believe in faith alone in the work of Christ alone.

You should not use that as a proof of your belief, it actually goes against your belief..

 

[kennethcadwell]

Only is not in the verse, and I did not put it there.

What I said was recognize how he only said old sins in that verse. If future sins were covered too by a one time repentance, he would have said all sins, or past/present/and future sins covered in that verse. But he only says your old sins.

Where does the word only occur in the text??? Nowhere. Where does it say, "not cleansed from future sins"??? Nowhere.

1 John 2: "I write unto you, my little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name’s sake."

the word "old" does not occur here.

Heb 10:

Lo, I am come to do thy will. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By which will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest indeed standeth day by day ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, the which can never take away sins: but he, when he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; henceforth expecting till his enemies be made the footstool of his feet. For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified. And the Holy Spirit also beareth witness to us; for after he hath said,
This is the covenant that I will make with them
After those days, saith the Lord:
I will put my laws on their heart,
And upon their mind also will I write them;
then saith he,
And their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


The believer could not be sanctified by Christ's death on the cross once for all without forgiveness of all sins (even future ones -- in fact, when Christ died all our sins were future).

He could not have perfected forever the believer by that one sacrifice if all the sins were not forgiven. The only sins that pertained to us were all future.

Can you not bring yourself to repent of consigning the Lord Jesus to the role of "chance-giver" and actually trust Him to get you to Heaven, trust Him with your eternal destiny?

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save Him people from their sins.

 

[Atwood]

And when put with other scriptures in the bible it shows that you must repent/ask for forgiveness of your sins when you commit them.

You may make a long list of things that Christians "must do." Christians should brush their teeth lest they have bad breath. But this has nothing to do with salvation. Salvation is not by works, but is a free gift. Losing salvation/eternal life is not a Bible category. The idea that every time a Christian sins he needs to get saved again, is nonsense. He who is bathed needs only wash his feet. You bring in something that does not address salvation or eternal security.

I do not deny believing in Christ to be saved.

You have him as a chance-giver, not the Savior.

The only thing the Bible teaches that you must do to be saved is believe in the Savior. That is the only must-I-do for salvation.

What MUST I DO to be saved?
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, & you shall be saved.

Our Lord Jesus said the path to eternal life is narrow and difficult, not easy. That is what the philosophy of mere belief does, is makes it easy.

What is non-easy is to give up pride in self and realize that you cannot save yourself. It is not easy to take the Publican's position: God be merciful to me a sinner.

See how difficult it is for you to trust Christ as only & sufficient Savior, and drop your works and relegating Him to chance-giver?

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

 

[Atwood]

Only is not in the verse, and I did not put it there.

What I said was recognize how he only said old sins in that verse. If future sins were covered too by a one time repentance, he would have said all sins, or past/present/and future sins covered in that verse. But he only says your old sins.

That is utterly illogical. It does not follow because a prophet refers to someone's old sins being forgiven that his future ones are not also forgiven. How could he speak of them having forgotten future sins??? The only sins that one could forget are old sins.

As I showed you from Hebrews, he could not have sanctified forever, perfected forever the Christian by His one sacrifice on the cross, without supplying forgiveness for all sins. And the only sins He could forgive at the cross were future sins, because we did not yet even live.

 

[kennethcadwell]

I am going to leave this thread with this:

Atwood and EG I hope one day you actually sit down and talk to a bunch of people who were once a strong follower of, and believer in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. But now do not believe in Him because of a trial or tribulation that occurred in their life causing them to fall away. Maybe then by talking to them you will understand the falling away better.

For they did as you say in order to be saved, and walked the path by doing the will of God for a good portion of their life. But now they deny Him and walk in non-belief.


Example: A boy who was born and raised Christian. He repented of his sins, was baptized, confessed the Lord Jesus on a daily basis, taught the gospel, dedicated his life to helping others, and became a preacher do to his love for Jesus Christ.
Then later in his life a tragedy happened, and he then turned his back on Christ. Now he denies Jesus and lives in non-belief fighting in debates against Christians.

Situations like this happen all the time. These are not apostates, or antichrists ( false teachers ). These are people who lost their faith do trials and tribulations in their life that took their focus off Christ, and put it back on the world.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am going to leave this thread with this:

Atwood and EG I hope one day you actually sit down and talk to a bunch of people who were once a strong follower of, and believer in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. But now do not believe in Him because of a trial or tribulation that occurred in their life causing them to fall away. Maybe then by talking to them you will understand the falling away better.

I have, (I was one myself at one time)

What I find is this.

many are angry,, and still believe, but because of their anger and frustration, walked away, these are prodigal children. And I believe are astill saved (God will not deny himself, he will remain faithful, even though these have lost faith.

Many you can tell by the way they talk never truly believed in Christ, I do not believe for a minute they were ever saved.

I pray you sit and think about what your saying. I pray you see your sin, and realise no matter how good you think you are. on even your best day you are worthy of eternal hell..

Like a good friend of mine always said, when he wakes up, the first thing he does is thank God he is not in hell. because he understands, that is all he deserves.

If you ever get to this point. You may finally see why we believe the way we do, and what we believe.

finally, I wish you would stop assuming things. You do not know us, what we have come from. or what we used to believe.

 

[kennethcadwell]

You need to look at what you say because you just contradicted yourself.

I have, (I was one myself at one time)

What I find is this.

many are angry,, and still believe, but because of their anger and frustration, walked away, these are prodigal

Right here in this sentence they can not walk away and still believe also. Walking away means they no longer have faith. I just had to reply to this.


children. And I believe are astill saved (God will not deny himself, he will remain faithful, even though these have lost faith.

Many you can tell by the way they talk never truly believed in Christ, I do not believe for a minute they were ever saved.

I pray you sit and think about what your saying. I pray you see your sin, and realise no matter how good you think you are. on even your best day you are worthy of eternal hell..

Like a good friend of mine always said, when he wakes up, the first thing he does is thank God he is not in hell. because he understands, that is all he deserves.

If you ever get to this point. You may finally see why we believe the way we do, and what we believe.

finally, I wish you would stop assuming things. You do not know us, what we have come from. or what we used to believe.

 

[Cassian]

Re: Will You Shuck & Jive to Avoid Eternal Security?

That is Cassian in Wonderland. That is what he says, but here is what the Lord says.

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes [present tense] him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. (1 John 5:12,13)

How is that Cassian can go on & on just saying things with no Bible proof? What is the point? Yes, you may exercise your freedom of speech, like the serpent "You shall not surely die."

For the reader I post more Eternal Security passages:

Saying above, Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein (the which are offered according to the law), then hath he said, Lo, I am come to do thy will. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
By which will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest indeed standeth day by day ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, the which can never take away sins: but he, when he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; henceforth expecting till his enemies be made the footstool of his feet.
For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified.
And the Holy Spirit also beareth witness to us; for after he hath said,
This is the covenant that I will make with them
After those days, saith the Lord:
I will put my laws on their heart,
And upon their mind also will I write them;
then saith he,
And their sins and their iniquities I will remember no more.
Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

He who has disregarded the Savior, relegating Him to a mere "change-giver," is invited to repent & to trust the Savior for his eternal destiny.

And where is OSAS in any of these verses? Not a single one testifies that a believer is always a believer and cannot fall from that status. Everyone is addressing a believer, not a fallen believer. Not a single verse that addresses the guarantee of man's faith. They all guarantee the promise of God to a believer.

Proof texts that don't say what you need them to say does not do you any good.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You need to look at what you say because you just contradicted yourself.

no I did not.

Because they never stopped having faith, their faith just became less.

As scripture says,

even when we are FAITHLESS (as in those people) HE REMAINS FAITHFULL, he can not deny himself.

If God took their salvation from them, he would have to deny his own promise he made to them thus denying himself.

My faith in salvation never stopped. My faith in this life dwindled. I lacked (lost faith) in the circumstanses and gave up..

A huge difference.

if you actually talk to people. and not judge them, you would see this.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Re: Will You Shuck & Jive to Avoid Eternal Security?

And where is OSAS in any of these verses? Not a single one testifies that a believer is always a believer and cannot fall from that status. Everyone is addressing a believer, not a fallen believer. Not a single verse that addresses the guarantee of man's faith. They all guarantee the promise of God to a believer.

Proof texts that don't say what you need them to say does not do you any good.

why do you not try to open your mind and actually read them.. And not blindly skim over them, you might see it..

Only a blind person could not see ES in those passages.

 

[Cassian]

Re: Will You Shuck & Jive to Avoid Eternal Security?

Actually it has been proven.

James. Faith produces work. If there is nor work produced, Faith is dead (and not able to save)

John. One who claims to be saved (part of us because of belief) but leaves, and is no against us (does not believe) was never truly of us, If they were truly of us (saved) they never would have left.

Peter -
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, [SUP]4 [/SUP]to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, [SUP]5 [/SUP]who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Also.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does[SUP][a][/SUP] not slumber.

And, As a dog (who did not become a new creature in Christ) he will always return to his true nature (vomit)


Paul. After one has faith, they are sealed with the spirit. who is the GUARANTEE of their salvation carrying them to the day of Christ.

Paul states over and over, "If you have" Proving that many he spoke to were impostors, and not truly saved, Even calling them illigitament and not true children.



lol. Many scripture prove it, You have been shown it, Your unwillingness to admit it shows your true heart.

I understand your need to change the meaning of the rest of scripture to support your false theory. But changing who a believer is, does not help your theory. It simply makes it more obvious that your original theory, OSAS is false. Scripture speaks against your theory in the very texts you have used to supposedly support OSAS.

Christ does not gurantee man's faith. When it is speaking of the seal of the Holy Spirit, that is God's seal of His promise to His side of the covenent. Where is man's seal of committment? Where is man's seal of his promise to love and obey and to follow and to be conformed to His Image?
You are addressing only one side of the covenant. There are two sides to this covenant. Man is the weak link and it is his faith that falters and for many it falters permanently as scripture describes.

So, when you can cite the text to guarantee man's faith, then you will have a scriptural definition of OSAS.

 

[Cassian]

I do not either.

And I know I have eternal life. As Jesus promised. I will never die, As jesus promised. I will never hunger and thirst again, As Jesus Promised I will live forever, As Jesus promised. I will not be condemned, As God promised. I will be ressurected by Christ, As jesus promised and paul confirmed. That I have eternal life. As John said, Based on the promise of the one God, (who can not lie) promised before time began.

Your eternal life is based on your work. Not in the work of Christ. That is sad, and not found in scripture. I pray you repent,



There is no assumption when you continually say your eternal life is based on your work.



I never said it did. I said it proves someone who claimes to be saved, then later gives God the finger and does not believe in him any more. was never saved, THEY DID NOT LOSE IT.

Other passages no one lost it due to sin.



Those who lose their faith never had it. They had belief only. James makes this clear.

you say this and have many times.....

Your eternal life is based on your work. Not in the work of Christ. That is sad, and not found in scripture. I pray you repent,

what work did Christ do for you to attain eternal life? Be specific?

 

[Cassian]

You need to look at what you say because you just contradicted yourself.

Isn't that the truth. Atwood has done this several times as well. I don't think they really understand OSAS themselves as much as those who understand the Truth and can easily see the falsity of OSAS.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Isn't that the truth. Atwood has done this several times as well. I don't think they really understand OSAS themselves as much as those who understand the Truth and can easily see the falsity of OSAS.

defenition of a strawman.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

you say this and have many times.....
what work did Christ do for you to attain eternal life? Be specific?[/COLOR][/B]

ever heard of the cross?

Oh wait, thats right, the penalty of sin is death, But we do not need death to have forgiveness (redemption)