It's a Buy or Sell Mark It

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Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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#61
Another issue in regards to the identity of the whore of Babylon and her city or "great city" is that there are only two "great cities" mentioned in John's revelation:

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

And it's heavenly counterpart or true city:

Rev 21:10 KJV And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,


Looking at a list of the "great city" verses below we do not find any reference to any other city but the great city "where also their Lord was crucified":





John's revelation is basically a tale of two cities - the physical Jerusalem of the 1st century AD that and the holy Jerusalem.

Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels.

Another nail in the coffin for the naysayers is that John distinguishes the "great city" that was judged and the cities of the nations:

Rev 16:19 The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath.

The cities of the nations (ethnos) are Gentile cities, while the "great city" divided into three parts not identified as a gentile city which can only mean that John is bringing our attention to the fact that the "great city" is Jerusalem of the 1st century AD
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
8,048
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#62
Another issue in regards to the identity of the whore of Babylon and her city or "great city" is that there are only two "great cities" mentioned in John's revelation:

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

And it's heavenly counterpart or true city:

Rev 21:10 KJV And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,


Looking at a list of the "great city" verses below we do not find any reference to any other city but the great city "where also their Lord was crucified":





John's revelation is basically a tale of two cities - the physical Jerusalem of the 1st century AD that and the holy Jerusalem.

Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels.

Another nail in the coffin for the naysayers is that John distinguishes the "great city" that was judged and the cities of the nations:

Rev 16:19 The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath.

The cities of the nations (ethnos) are Gentile cities, while the "great city" divided into three parts not identified as a gentile city which can only mean that John is bringing our attention to the fact that the "great city" is Jerusalem of the 1st century AD


Thing about it is that you without thinking about it stated that it "was judged/past tense"...and dated the Revelation in what you say your own self.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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#63
No, I was thinking when I said "was judged"

Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.

Luke 21:22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.

Luke 21:31 “So you also, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near.

Luke 21: 32 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place.

The above address is given to his disciples - it's not a general broadcast message that is for a generation hundreds of years past the disciples lifetime:

Luke 21:7 They questioned Him, saying, “Teacher, when therefore will these things happen? And what will be the sign when these things are about to take place?”

History attests to the facts of the above.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
8,048
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#64
No, I was thinking when I said "was judged"

Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.

Luke 21:22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.

Luke 21:31 “So you also, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near.

Luke 21: 32 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place.

The above address is given to his disciples - it's not a general broadcast message that is for a generation hundreds of years past the disciples lifetime:

Luke 21:7 They questioned Him, saying, “Teacher, when therefore will these things happen? And what will be the sign when these things are about to take place?”

History attests to the facts of the above.

Then Hebrews 12;22 ,which is present tense, would have nothing to do with Revelation 16;19 unless it took place before the destruction of Jerusalem in ad70 because Revelation 16;19 is also past tense,and so it being divided would have to have taken place before ad70 for the statement in Hebrews to be true.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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#65
Yer gonna have to explain yourself some more here, I'm a bible reader not a mind reader.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
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#66
Yer gonna have to explain yourself some more here, I'm a bible reader not a mind reader.
lol,look at it this way instead of thinking that I perceive mine own self as an teacher of some sort see me as if I might consider my self as only an good student and ponder why I would ask about the two scriptures you gave as if they were parallel.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
685
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#67
Still not following you here.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
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#69
You are being cryptic again, I haven't a clue what you are trying to convey - explain what you are thinking with more than a few words and I'll do my best to answer.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
8,048
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#70
You are being cryptic again, I haven't a clue what you are trying to convey - explain what you are thinking with more than a few words and I'll do my best to answer.
No offence Locutus you’ve done your best and I'm waiting for another teacher.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
685
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#71
I think what you need to do is try and frame your question(s) in a more logical fashion so people can actually understand what the question is.

Falling back on sarcasm is no way to discuss the issues.
 
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heartofdavid

Guest
#72
4. The blasphemy of the beast

a.
“There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies.” Should it be 'him' or 'it'?


*
αὐτῷ is dative case and both masculine and neuter gender. Since the antecedent of αὐτῷ is the beast representing not a person but a nation it would seem to be more appropriately rendered in the neuter rather than the masculine. In fact, it is so rendered in a number of English translations; Thus, “There was given to it....” Since however, the 'head' is referring to a specific ruling person, for the seven heads are kings, it would certainly seem appropriate to use 'he'.
* The source of this arrogance and blasphemy is the dragon. He is the one who empowered the beast in verse two. Satan is the one who influences the minds of the emperors.
* The arrogant words and blasphemies – In 2Thessalonians 2:3-4 Paul writes, "...that son of perdition an adversary who exalts himself above every so-called god proposed for worship, he who seats himself in God's temple and even declares himself to be God." This is blaspheming the name of God. It would seem that this is directed at this particular persecutor.

b.
“And authority to act for forty-two months was given to him (it).” The authority is to execute destruction against Jerusalem.

c. “And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven.” How does he blaspheme the name of God? He assigns it to himself.

*
The church is here intended as the co-recipient of Nero's blasphemies. He blasphemes God and his tabernacle, those who dwell in heaven.” The tabernacle or house of God is “those who....” The Church is the tabernacle of God whose dwelling place and place of origin is heaven. We will see this more clearly when we get to chapter twenty-one. ”Those who dwell in heaven” stand in contrast to the beast that rises out of the sea – Rome, and the best in verse eleven that came out of the earth” (the place of the nations) is Jerusalem. Those who dwell in heaven represent the saints.
* The blasphemies are associated with persecution. The persecution of the saints is an affront to God himself.

5. “It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.” Nero persecuted Christians irrespective of nationality. Jerusalem is no longer Nero's only object of assault. Late in 64 AD Nero began his persecution of Christians. This persecution was not limited to Jewish Christians but encompassed Christians of every ethnic group – those of “every tribe and people and tongue and nation.”

6. “All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain. If anyone has an ear, let him hear. If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.”

a. This is directed toward those who were the subjects of the three woes – those in Jerusalem because it speaks of those destined for captivity and those killed by the sword. When Titus besieged the city in 66AD it was on the Sabbath day during the Passover. This means the city would have been crowded with people. Josephus estimated the population of Jerusalem to be about 2,500,000 at the time the siege. When the city eventually fell, the accounts of the dead were estimated to be between 600,000 to over 1,000,000, thousands of which were crucified. Josephus placed the number 1,100,000 but the conqueror Titus believed it to be around 600,000. 95,000 captives were taken as prisoners and sold into slavery or killed in gladiatorial games. The rest died of starvation and disease. Ac

b. These are those whose names are not written in the book of life. These are said to worship the beast – Rome. Jerusalem despised Roman rule and fought against Roman domination yet, they are said to worship the beast. This seems paradoxical but the fact is that prior to the Roman Jewish war, Jerusalem was in league with Rome. Palestine was one of the tributary provinces and was ruled by king Agrippa II who's allegiance was to Rome. If you do not worship the Lamb, you worship the beast. There are no other options.
II. Who is the Beast from the Earth, 11-18?


A.
Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth (Palestine); And he had two horns like a lamb...”


1. The first beast is depicted as a composite predator while the second beast is depicted as a lamb, an animal of prey.

2. “And he spoke as a dragon.” Speaks like the dragon rather than the Lamb; This makes him a false prophet as he is called in 19:20. Jesus had warned of false prophets during this time in Matthew 24:11. The fact that he “spoke as a dragon” represents an agreement of mind between Rome and Palestine who was nothing more than an instrument of Rome through which Rome exercised its power over the Jews. This is portrayed in the comparison of horns which represent power. Rome has ten and Palestine (the subordinate power) has two. The lesser served the greater.

B. “He exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence. And he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed.” The object of this power was the Jews. The only power Palestine possessed came from Rome and the Jews were required to give their allegiance to Rome. “If you give it to the Lamb we will kill you.”
C. “He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men. “And he deceives those who dwell on the earth (Jews, specifically the province of Palestine) because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who had the wound of the sword and has come to life. And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed.” These “signs” do not suggest miracles or even pseudo miracles. These signs were demonstrations of power and authority exercised on the citizenry. Fire is a judgment figure used here as it is in many places to represent the power, in this case the power of the Jewish persecutors against those who refuse to worship the Beast or bow to his image. This is very suggestive of 2Thessalonians 2:9-12, “Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all(unrepentant Israel) maybe judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.” This judgment was executed in the three woes.
D. “And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast (god, Caesar???) or the number of his name.” The mark of the beast is nothing more than one's willingness to offer its worship the first beast. In other words, if you did not acknowledge Caesar as god you were not allowed to buy and sell in the marketplace. If you were a fisherman, a shepherd, a farmer, a craftsman, a herdsman, or any other type of merchant you were not permitted to conduct business or ply your trade if you were a Christian. Being a Christian was economically disastrous.

1. The symbolism of the forehead can be used to indicate the stubborn mind, Ezekiel 3:8-9. This stubbornness can be either for or against God.

2. This symbolism as it was introduced to us in Exodus 13:9 was one's consecration of the heart and mind to God. Here, this symbolism is used of those who have consecrated themselves to the beast.

E. “Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.” Nero was the sixth emperor. Six is the number for man and the three-fold use of the number six simply exaggerates the fact that he was a man and not God. Those who worship him worship man.
I shall call this your own private miss apply of scripture.

Using this same method,we can conclude Jesus already came. The second coming is history.

Here is proof: Mark 14 Jesus told the High priest " ...and you will see the son of God coming in the clouds..."

Therefore the high priest saw that historical event.

Anyone can make the verses dance to a manufactured tune
 
H

heartofdavid

Guest
#73
The bible is the biggest enemy of preterits.

Pssst, it says GRIEVOUS SORES appear on those with the mark.

Pssst,it says every man,woman,and child takes the mark or dies.

You are ridiculously off old hermit
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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#74
I shall call this your own private miss apply of scripture.

Using this same method,we can conclude Jesus already came. The second coming is history.

Here is proof: Mark 14 Jesus told the High priest " ...and you will see the son of God coming in the clouds..."

Therefore the high priest saw that historical event.

Anyone can make the verses dance to a manufactured tune

Do you even understand what the phrase "God coming in the clouds" means or how scriptures uses this imagery?
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
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#75
I think what you need to do is try and frame your question(s) in a more logical fashion so people can actually understand what the question is.

Falling back on sarcasm is no way to discuss the issues.
In post #70 I said to you "No offence" and if I seem sarcastic I apologize. In around ad255 the issue of the millennialist https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Dionysius_of_Alexandria in similar fashion was already being debated among the early Churches and as it seems even to this day is debated among Christians as which is correct.

As I said to you before I am outside the camps and am merely following along with an ongoing debate among the different groups discussing their positions on the matter. At times I wonder why one would say certain things and when you used Hebrews 12:22 and Rev.16:19 as parallel to one another. Why is because of the tenses they are written in verses the date the two different books were written. In Hebrews 12;22 in the statement it says "but you HAVE COME..." and so it is a present tense reality at the time it is written as if it is already fulfilled. In Revelation 16:19 he saw the city divided into three parts so if it is parallel to Hebrews 12:22 it would have been divided into three parts before the book of Hebrews was written.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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#76
In post #70 I said to you "No offence" and if I seem sarcastic I apologize. In around ad255 the issue of the millennialist https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Dionysius_of_Alexandria in similar fashion was already being debated among the early Churches and as it seems even to this day is debated among Christians as which is correct.

As I said to you before I am outside the camps and am merely following along with an ongoing debate among the different groups discussing their positions on the matter. At times I wonder why one would say certain things and when you used Hebrews 12:22 and Rev.16:19 as parallel to one another. Why is because of the tenses they are written in verses the date the two different books were written. In Hebrews 12;22 in the statement it says "but you HAVE COME..." and so it is a present tense reality at the time it is written as if it is already fulfilled. In Revelation 16:19 he saw the city divided into three parts so if it is parallel to Hebrews 12:22 it would have been divided into three parts before the book of Hebrews was written.
You have to remember that John is relating a vision he had seen. When he relates what he saw he naturally uses the past tense. In the vision, he saw the city that was divided into three parts. The Hebrew writer throughout the book is relating to everything as fulfilled fact.
 
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iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
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#77
You have to remember that John is relating a vision he had seen. When he relates what he saw he naturally uses the past tense. In the vision, he saw the city divided into three parts. The Hebrew writer throughout the book is relating to everything as fulfilled fact.
I see your point but in the fulfilment of when the city was divided into three parts are usually attributed to when the three factions were divided(by preterist) while they were inside the city walls during the siege(ad66-70) so if this is the case the epistle to the Hebrews would then be written after Ad66-70(for it to be already present tense to the writer of Hebrews) do you see the epistle to the Hebrews written after ad70?
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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#78
I see your point but in the fulfilment of when the city was divided into three parts are usually attributed to when the three factions were divided(by preterist) while they were inside the city walls during the siege(ad66-70) so if this is the case the epistle to the Hebrews would then be written after Ad66-70(for it to be already present tense to the writer of Hebrews) do you see the epistle to the Hebrews written after ad70?

Opinions for the dating of Hebrews range from as early as A.D. 52 to as late as A.D. 96. The most widely accepted date among scholars is A.D. 62-64.
Personally, I think it was between AD 52-54.A. There are some internal temporal indicators that seem to suggest that the letter was written prior to the destruction of Jerusalem. For example:
1. They were still in the last days, 1:2. These last days do not represent the finality of time as it relates to the return of Christ, but the close of a fulfilled system of Jewish economy. These last days would end in the destruction of Jerusalem.
2. The old had not yet vanished away, 8:13. This would culminate with the destruction of the last vestige of the national identity – the Temple.

3. It was during the time of the Jewish persecution of Christians, 6:6-10, but it was before the persecutions had become severe, at least in the area of these readers, 10:32-34; 12:4. If this letter was sent to Rome for example, this means that it would have to have been written before the Neronian rule in A.D. 65.

4. Chapter 9:6-9 infers that the sacrificial services are still being conducted in the temple during this time. This is speaking of the Day of Atonement sacrifice that could only be offered in the Temple.


 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
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#79

Opinions for the dating of Hebrews range from as early as A.D. 52 to as late as A.D. 96. The most widely accepted date among scholars is A.D. 62-64.
Personally, I think it was between AD 52-54.A. There are some internal temporal indicators that seem to suggest that the letter was written prior to the destruction of Jerusalem. For example:
1. They were still in the last days, 1:2. These last days do not represent the finality of time as it relates to the return of Christ, but the close of a fulfilled system of Jewish economy. These last days would end in the destruction of Jerusalem.
2. The old had not yet vanished away, 8:13. This would culminate with the destruction of the last vestige of the national identity – the Temple.

3. It was during the time of the Jewish persecution of Christians, 6:6-10, but it was before the persecutions had become severe, at least in the area of these readers, 10:32-34; 12:4. If this letter was sent to Rome for example, this means that it would have to have been written before the Neronian rule in A.D. 65.

4. Chapter 9:6-9 infers that the sacrificial services are still being conducted in the temple during this time. This is speaking of the Day of Atonement sacrifice that could only be offered in the Temple.



I myself see it as written somewhere late ad63-ad64 also because of the internal statements you gave. but comparing it to Revelation 16 as parallel would mean that the "Mark" would fall somewhere between ad65 and ad70 because of Revelation 16:2 ...
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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#80
I myself see it as written somewhere late ad63-ad64 also because of the internal statements you gave. but comparing it to Revelation 16 as parallel would mean that the "Mark" would fall somewhere between ad65 and ad70 because of Revelation 16:2 ...
Are you talking about what John calls "the mark of the beast"?