Jesus Christ was God manifest in the Flesh

livingbygrace · Apr 16, 2011

The answer can you find in Is 44:6
6 Thus said the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God .
There is one GOD, and He is called YHWH.. revealed in 3 persons. Tell me, is Jesus the King of Israel?
You need to understand somethhing basic here. Christ is the WORD OF GOD

You are clearly not answering simple questions put to you
I simply asked you who was the God of Israel in the OT?

The answer is
Christ
The Father
Or someone else
I have put this question to you more than once and have received no answer

Did you answer my question fully? Who sent who in Zech 2:8-9.
Do you not believe the Father sent the son?
I think you are grasping at straws now
If the Father sent the son the one true God sent the son
The Bible is clear, the Father is the one true God
There are not three true Gods and this is why you CANNOT answer my questions
And a I repeat to you. The Jews had all of the OT scriptures. Why were they not expecting God Himself to come as their Messiah?

Don't play games.. and accuse me that you answer my question fully.. Now it is your turn to give the explanation of the verse I gave you..

If God said.. there isn't another God than there is one God.. God became FULLY AND FULLY AND FULLY AND FULLY AND FULLY AND FULLY HUMAN A HUMAN LIKE YOU AND I... AND HE HAD TO BE RESTORE IN HIS POSITION...

But to make it complete for you: The explanation of the verse:

But to the Son he said, Your throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of your kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness and hated iniquity; therefore God, even Thy God, hath anointed Thee with the oil of gladness above Thy fellows."

The writer of the book of Hebrew quote from the marriagepsalm 45. Because the sceptre of this King is a sceptre of righteousness (Is 11:4) and that King loved righteousness and hate iniquinty, anointed God Him with oil of joy. And it isn’t mentioned an anointing for a King, but God [FONT=&quot]pour a tremendous amount of joy out of Hii. Like is written in Isaiah 61:3. (oil of joy instead of mourning) The verb for thou [/FONT]loved righteousness and thou hated iniquity is what we called to the aoristus.. a pointing to a concrete happening what took place in the past. Here it is pointed at the life and death from Christ. Jesus fulfilled the righteousness with His dead at the cross and He didn’t sinned (Heb 4:15). That’s why He received a lot of joy and glory of God. (Heb 12:2)

This is just evasion
The son was set ABOVE his companions by the Father.
Therefore with your thinking the one true God must first of all been equal to his companions

So this question is not answered either, because you cannot answer it with your beliefs

I have also asked you to explain more than once in what way Christ WILL become subject to the Father when all dominion, authority and power has been defeated
You have not answered this question either

I gave you every opportunity to answer my questions, you have not done so. I gave you far less questions to answer than you did me but because of your man made beliefs it is IMPOSSIBLE for you to answer the questions put to you so it just becomes evasion. Doubtless you cannot admit this. Therefore debate is pointless and IZX have grown weary of my questions not being answered in debate, yet I am still expected to answer others questions

I can only repeat. If you will not accept the words of the Father, son, Paul and John you are hardly liokely to listen to me are you

Anyway, thank you for our discussion

livingbygrace · Apr 16, 2011

paulnsilas said:

In Heb 1:8&9 the Father refers to the Son with the title God, but He still says he is Christ's God, this is clearly written
Many times in the OT as well as the new Christ refers to the Father as 'My God'

Thereofre, to say that Christ is the one true God Himself must mean that God Himself must refer to someone as 'My God'

You can give wonderful intellectual argument to explain this away, but the one true God Himself cannot refer to a God as 'My God'
There are not three 'true Gods' only one, the Father as Christ Himself clearly stated when praying to his Father in John 17

The Father does His work THROUGH the son
The universe was created THROUGH the son
We are saved THROUGH the son
There is no way to the Father except THROUGH the son
God speaks THROUGH the son who is the word of God

The spirit proceeds from the Father and exhibits in the son, and is on the son in its fulness.
But this does not make the son the one true God, and this is the problem of interpretation

Most believe mans teaching. If the Father via the Spirit is fully in/manifest in the son then the son must be God Himself. But this is not what the Bible teaches.
The son was set above his companions. How can the one true God be SET ABOVE his companions, it is impossible unless you say that firstly the one true God was equal to his companions

Christ is an individual in his own right, but the Spirit is on him in bodily form. He loves righteousness and hated wickedness therefore his God set him above his companions and annointed him with the oil of joy

He said to me. You are my son
TODAY I have become your Father

Ask of me and I will make the nations your inheritance
The ends of the earth your possession
You will rule them with an iron sceptre
You will dash them to pieces like pottery

So, how can the one true God be GIVEN an inheritance?

No, the one true God is in the Son, but the son is still the son and according to Christ the Father is greater than he

But the son reflects the person of who the FATHER TRULY IS. So we worship him, seeing the divinity of the Father in the son, the son who died on the cross for our sins

But once you say the son is God Himself you HAVE to dismiss the plainest of scripture on this subject, for the plainest of scripture does not say Christ is God Himself, but he is refered to as the Son of God and this is SCRIPTURALLY how we must see Christ. There os one true God, not three true Gods

Dutch41 · Apr 16, 2011

”sbg” said:

Did I ever said that? Come one.. I think everybody knows that you have to use more translations if you wanted to do seriously Biblestudy. I hope I don’t have to tell you that some words from the orginaltext is difficult to translate in your mother language. I don’t accept the KJV and NIV as the only right translated bible. I believe that there are translate errors, like in all the translations.

yet to us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we in Him, and one Lord Jesus Christ by whom are all things, and we by Him.

”Dutch vs svg” said:

All hemin heis theos ho pater ex hou ta panta kai hemeis eis auto kai heis kurius iesous christos die hou ta panta kai hemeis die auto.

Soo what is Paul telling: one God, heis theos, ho pater and one Lord heis kurious iesous christos So if that is true.. it isn’t possible that there are two Gods and two Lords.. I hope you agree with me. Because the part of the sentence is the same.. If Paul made a different between God of Kurios.. than we got some problem.. Because the NT said: that Father is the Lord.

Tell me so I can understand you correct; the Father isn’t a Kurios? When we read the Old Testament again.. who is the King of Israel in the OT.. "Thus saith the LORD, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: I am the First, and I am the Last, and besides Me there is no God.
I used here the KJV.. Funny isn’t it that Christ said: besides Me there is no God.
Ex 20:2-3 "I am the LORD thy God, who have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.3 "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.

Deuteronomy 32:39(YHWH is talking) "‘See now that I, even I, am He, and there is no god besides Me. I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal; neither is there any that can deliver out of My hand.

2 Samuel 7:22 Therefore Thou art great, O LORD God; for there is none like Thee, neither is there any God besides Thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

1 Kings 8:23 and he said, "LORD God of Israel, there is no God like Thee in heaven above or on earth beneath, who keepest covenant and mercy with Thy servants who walk before Thee with all their heart,

I stop here.. with the Bibleverse. I reject that there are different Gods.. I reject that the God of Israel is a different God and not a true God. There is only one God like the shema said. Hear O Israel, the Lord Your God is one. When you don’t know your bible. The God of Israel is the only God!!!!
Don’t magic with the Scripture..

Ohh now I am digging to deep? That is strange.. I use only the Greek text here. The prove here is that God is Lord too. And that you read the whole passage in your street,.. (like we say here)
Tell me, Christ had the Title God in the Old Testament come show me! If you said this.. you can prove it in the Old Testament.. Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government shall be upon His shoulder. And His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
The name El Gibor (Mighty God) is given only at the one and truly God!!!!! The Everlasting Father there is only one Father!!!

Well for this.. I think the Bible verse that I pointed above proves enough..
What is your plan saved? You know that I don’t denie that.. are you going to try to made funny moves again? Where did I say the Christ isn’t the Word.. don’t do magic again doesn’t work here.

I proved there is one God, not more. Jacob said: I have seen God, The elders of nation of Israel saw God. But what they didn’t see was the Lord in full glory, because that isn’t possible like YHWH said… (Ex 33:18-22). So come one.. the text in John 1:18 said:

Isn’t the NIV translation (according the most earliers manuscripts who said: No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known

(rest my case)

Well I let us read together:
1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, "Yea, hath God said, ‘Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?"
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, "We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden,
3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, ‘Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.’"
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, "Ye shall not surely die;
5 for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof and ate, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he ate.

Come let us see if the serpant speaks the trutht:
Vs 1: Yea, hath God said, ‘Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?" (a lie, the Lord God didn’t said that Gen 2:17)
Vs 4: Ye shall not surely die ( a lie, He said here the Lord God is a liar Gen 2:17)
Vs 5: for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." (of course a lie.. the only truth is that they know good and evil like God vs 22, but there isn’t written they are equal)

So you believe the Father of the lie?
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own, for he is a liar and the father of it.

livingbygrace · Apr 16, 2011

Dutch41 said:

Did I ever said that? Come one.. I think everybody knows that you have to use more translations if you wanted to do seriously Biblestudy. I hope I don’t have to tell you that some words from the orginaltext is difficult to translate in your mother language. I don’t accept the KJV and NIV as the only right translated bible. I believe that there are translate errors, like in all the translations.

yet to us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we in Him, and one Lord Jesus Christ by whom are all things, and we by Him.

”Dutch vs svg” said:

All hemin heis theos ho pater ex hou ta panta kai hemeis eis auto kai heis kurius iesous christos die hou ta panta kai hemeis die auto.

Soo what is Paul telling: one God, heis theos, ho pater and one Lord heis kurious iesous christos So if that is true.. it isn’t possible that there are two Gods and two Lords.. I hope you agree with me. Because the part of the sentence is the same.. If Paul made a different between God of Kurios.. than we got some problem.. Because the NT said: that Father is the Lord.

Tell me so I can understand you correct; the Father isn’t a Kurios? When we read the Old Testament again.. who is the King of Israel in the OT.. "Thus saith the LORD, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: I am the First, and I am the Last, and besides Me there is no God.
I used here the KJV.. Funny isn’t it that Christ said: besides Me there is no God.
Ex 20:2-3 "I am the LORD thy God, who have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.3 "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.

Deuteronomy 32:39(YHWH is talking) "‘See now that I, even I, am He, and there is no god besides Me. I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal; neither is there any that can deliver out of My hand.

2 Samuel 7:22 Therefore Thou art great, O LORD God; for there is none like Thee, neither is there any God besides Thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

1 Kings 8:23 and he said, "LORD God of Israel, there is no God like Thee in heaven above or on earth beneath, who keepest covenant and mercy with Thy servants who walk before Thee with all their heart,

I stop here.. with the Bibleverse. I reject that there are different Gods.. I reject that the God of Israel is a different God and not a true God. There is only one God like the shema said. Hear O Israel, the Lord Your God is one. When you don’t know your bible. The God of Israel is the only God!!!!
Don’t magic with the Scripture..

Ohh now I am digging to deep? That is strange.. I use only the Greek text here. The prove here is that God is Lord too. And that you read the whole passage in your street,.. (like we say here)
Tell me, Christ had the Title God in the Old Testament come show me! If you said this.. you can prove it in the Old Testament.. Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government shall be upon His shoulder. And His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
The name El Gibor (Mighty God) is given only at the one and truly God!!!!! The Everlasting Father there is only one Father!!!

Well for this.. I think the Bible verse that I pointed above proves enough..
What is your plan saved? You know that I don’t denie that.. are you going to try to made funny moves again? Where did I say the Christ isn’t the Word.. don’t do magic again doesn’t work here.

I proved there is one God, not more. Jacob said: I have seen God, The elders of nation of Israel saw God. But what they didn’t see was the Lord in full glory, because that isn’t possible like YHWH said… (Ex 33:18-22). So come one.. the text in John 1:18 said:

Isn’t the NIV translation (according the most earliers manuscripts who said: No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known

(rest my case)

Well I let us read together:
1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, "Yea, hath God said, ‘Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?"
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, "We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden,
3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, ‘Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.’"
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, "Ye shall not surely die;
5 for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof and ate, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he ate.

Come let us see if the serpant speaks the trutht:
Vs 1: Yea, hath God said, ‘Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?" (a lie, the Lord God didn’t said that Gen 2:17)
Vs 4: Ye shall not surely die ( a lie, He said here the Lord God is a liar Gen 2:17)
Vs 5: for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." (of course a lie.. the only truth is that they know good and evil like God vs 22, but there isn’t written they are equal)

So you believe the Father of the lie?
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own, for he is a liar and the father of it.

Dutch

If you are posting for others benefit that is fine, but I have explained to you, that as you have not answered my questions repeatedly asked I have withdrawn from our debate
I am quite happy to leave you with the last word and to infer I cannot answer your questions and you have answered mine. It should be left to the INDEPENDANT observer to decide why our debate is over and who has not answered the others questions

But to me, you along with so many are trying with the rational mind to understand the spiritual, it cannot be done Read 1 Cor ch 2

Dutch41 · Apr 16, 2011

livingbygrace said:

I said I will answer your question.. And I think I did.. Is this an escape?
Let me see: Your question about 1Cor 15 is be answered .,. your question about Heb 1:9 is answered..
Your question about Nobody saw God is answered...

The next part is answered.. about the early Jews.. Even the strange question about who is the God from Israel is answered.

I wil sent you the last part for you.. But you aren't able to discus.. and the only part you are doing is repeating Bible verse..

Dutch41 · Apr 16, 2011

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[FONT=&quot] No, the answer is.. YHWH, and who is YHWH that is the only God.. and if you don’t understand this.. and see the lack of your theory..
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[FONT=&quot]One God, in 3-revealed persons Just like the Scripture and even Jesus said. If you think you didn’t get any answer.. because your think you got such an intelligent question. And you are probably right.. the only one who can answer your question is I think people who think the same as you..
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[FONT=&quot] It ended indeed here.. because the answers are all answered. And if you ignore the Scripture like God said "Ye are My witnesses," saith the LORD, "and My servant whom I have chosen, that ye may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Me.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]You can think who is YHWH, the King of Israel, the Father or Jesus.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot] You didn’t answered my questions. I take it serious when you said that I don’t answer you. There are some questions that you didn’t answer..
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[FONT=&quot]In a debate I use arguments.. and I think I did. Maybe you didn't like it. But that is a pity for you.
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[FONT=&quot] Did I ever said there are three true Gods? If I said it.. please show me.. if I don’t .. then don’t fill it in for me.. I said the the Old Testament Jews did. But not all, like we can read in the Bible. I will sent you some quote from early Jewish literature.. So can I handle this question as closed? And be answered?[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]First book Adam &Eve (200-300 BC) [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Elohim said to Adam I have ordained on this earth days and years and thou and I shall dwell and walk in until the days and years are fulfilled when I shall sent the Word that created thee.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Yahweh Elohim said to Adam………………Again said Elohim unto Adam…….. When I shall come down from heaven and shall become flesh of they seed, and take upon Me the infirmity from which thou suffered, then darkness that come upon Me in the grave, when I am in the flesh of they seed. And I who am without years, shall subject to the reckoning of years of times and months and days and I shall be reckoned as one of the sons of man, in order to save them.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]The Testament from the 12 Patriach (107-137 BC)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Benjamin 2:5 And the 12 tribes shall be gathered together there and all gentiles, until the most Hight shall sent forth HIS SALVATION IN A VISITATION of an ONLY BEGOTTEN PROPHET.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Simeon 3:7 For YHWH Elohim shall appear on earth and Himself save man….. because Elohim hath taken a body and eaten and save man.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Asher 1:38 The Most High shall visit the earth, coming himself as a man[/FONT]

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Red33 · Apr 16, 2011

When any person refuses to believe that Jesus Christ was God in the flesh, they are in unbelief as to God being manifest in the flesh through His Son. If they remain in unbelief concerning the Son who was God in the flesh, then they are denying that Jesus Christ was God in the flesh and that is the spirit of antichrist. There is no way around this, they should be ignored and rejected because they do not have the doctrine of Christ. Either Jesus Christ was God in the flesh or He was not. The Holy Spirit is going to speak and testify of the Son to the hearts of men that Jesus Christ was God in the flesh, any other testimony is the spirit of antichrist. To keep dealing with any man that is in unbelief concerning who the Son is, will only cause strife and be fruitless. Many will be seduced by doctrines of demons and this is one of them in the days we live in.

livingbygrace · Apr 16, 2011

Dutch41 said:

As I have said I will not put questions to you anymore or accept them from you because you do not/cannot answer them but I will make some general observations

You say I am trying to look for an escape route
Well what we have here is the plain words of scripture against man made wisdom, and that certainly is the true dividing line

I have placed before you such plain scripture than cannot possibly mean anything other than it clearly states, but you will not/cannot accept it

How clear is this
The Father is greater than I
But this and all the other scripture I put to you directly relating to this subject is not accepted, why not?

Because you along with most others want an 'intellectual' Christianity, one where you thrive and rely on great strudy of the word, the Greek and reading up on many theologians/scholars to give you an understanding of great truths revealed in scripture(as you see it)
This has much to do with the ego and little to do with the spirit filled Bible
For in effect you are saying.
We;ll it doesn't matter what the plain text says on this subject I through my own reasoning and brilliance can ignore those crystal clear statements in the Bible and instead give you rational argument that in effect proves them wrong.
And so you and so many others are blinded to the truth by the human ego.

Would the Spirit filled Bible really be written so that the plainest of scripture on this subject completely contradicts the truth(if you are right)

Christ never demanded that anyone believed he was God Himself, but you and so many others do

Christ never once demanded a person see him as God Himself to have eternal life, but so many do today

So these are undisputable facts, but the human mind and logic totally ignores these plain truths of scripture
So who is ACTUALLY standing on the word of God here?

Man and his natural reasoning/understanding and ego will always be the true stumbling blocks to understanding the truth
EG

You say Christ has always been subject to God in position, but in nature this is impossible

I point out to you that Paul clearly states Christ will be subject to God in the future, I ask you in what way.
You cannot therefore answer the question based on your beliefs but try to sidetrack it

I point out to you that God set Christ above his companions and annointed him with the oil of joy.
Therefore if Christ is the one true God he miust firstly have been equal with his companions, such a thing is not possible for the one true God
Can you DIRECTLY address this point? No you cannot

And God must therefore have exalted himself to the highest place and given himself a name above every name. So where was the one true God before this? Before he was exalted to the highest place?
Was the one true God simply equal to his companions?

And did the one true God tell himself to sit at his own right hand until he had put all his enemies under his own feet?

This is all absurd, but man in his egotistical pride and the desire to believe HE through his OWN rational mind can work out hidden, deep truths of scripture.

It is nonsensical, but that is the state of much of the church today

So tell me I am seeking an escape to our discussion. Complain I will not accept the truth you are showing me. I will happily stand on the plain words of scripture, not the human mind and its understanding whicch inevitabley lands itself with much contradiction of plain scripture

It is the spirit that leads into truth. But I rarely hear this from those intent on hard studying who believe they through their man made minds can reach a true understanding of the Bible

So you believe in a Bible where the plainest of statements in it are either terribly misleading or wrong, that is your right of course, it is not a belief I wish to have

paulnsilas · Apr 16, 2011

livingbygrace said:

In Heb 1:8&9 the Father refers to the Son with the title God, but He still says he is Christ's God, this is clearly written
Many times in the OT as well as the new Christ refers to the Father as 'My God'

Thereofre, to say that Christ is the one true God Himself must mean that God Himself must refer to someone as 'My God'

You can give wonderful intellectual argument to explain this away, but the one true God Himself cannot refer to a God as 'My God'
There are not three 'true Gods' only one, the Father as Christ Himself clearly stated when praying to his Father in John 17

The Father does His work THROUGH the son
The universe was created THROUGH the son
We are saved THROUGH the son
There is no way to the Father except THROUGH the son
God speaks THROUGH the son who is the word of God

The spirit proceeds from the Father and exhibits in the son, and is on the son in its fulness.
But this does not make the son the one true God, and this is the problem of interpretation

Most believe mans teaching. If the Father via the Spirit is fully in/manifest in the son then the son must be God Himself. But this is not what the Bible teaches.
The son was set above his companions. How can the one true God be SET ABOVE his companions, it is impossible unless you say that firstly the one true God was equal to his companions

Christ is an individual in his own right, but the Spirit is on him in bodily form. He loves righteousness and hated wickedness therefore his God set him above his companions and annointed him with the oil of joy

He said to me. You are my son
TODAY I have become your Father

Ask of me and I will make the nations your inheritance
The ends of the earth your possession
You will rule them with an iron sceptre
You will dash them to pieces like pottery

So, how can the one true God be GIVEN an inheritance?

No, the one true God is in the Son, but the son is still the son and according to Christ the Father is greater than he

But the son reflects the person of who the FATHER TRULY IS. So we worship him, seeing the divinity of the Father in the son, the son who died on the cross for our sins

But once you say the son is God Himself you HAVE to dismiss the plainest of scripture on this subject, for the plainest of scripture does not say Christ is God Himself, but he is refered to as the Son of God and this is SCRIPTURALLY how we must see Christ. There os one true God, not three true Gods

I have only one question, any way you choose to answer is OK with me:

What manner of entity is Jesus Christ?

livingbygrace · Apr 16, 2011

paulnsilas said:

God is spirit, doesn't the Bible say that angels are spirit messengers sent to help us, and Christ in the OT was refered to in places as the angel of the Lord

So wouldn't you say Christ is a spirit entity who came to earth in a human body?
Would you broadly disagree with that?

PneumaPsucheSoma · Apr 16, 2011

livingbygrace said:

Hi, LBG-

My initial concern was that you represented a JW understanding; but after reading a number of your posts, I began to understand you upheld certain other teachings that were at odds with a JW view that Jesus was an angel Incarnate.

Because of my life experience as/with Triniarianism, I hold more of a "boundary" view of what concepts of understanding constitute salvific faith. That outer perimeter of salvific content of belief cannot include God's Son being an angelic being made Incarnate.

I had read a few of your Scripture quotes as "slips" from the NWT, but had set it aside based on other things you seemed to clearly be saying that couldn't be JW.

I've refrained from certain exegesis because I wanted Trinis to have to support the Deity of Christ themselves, which they generally cannot. I lent much latitude in basic support because I thought you were being forthright in holding to a non-doctrinally-defined and unformulated basic view that was somehow a combo of Unitarian and Nestorian principles of thought.

I still bear you no malice, but if you are representing a JW-type view that an angelic being was made flesh as Christ, I must withdraw my support that your understanding can represent the basic outline of salvific faith. I say this simply to set myself aside at this point, since I have somewhat loosely affiliated with you by personally including what you've said as within the "perimeter" of the salvation "fence".

My biggest concern is your "incognito" manner of debate on a Christian site. I well understand a reluctance to reveal your association, but at some point it becomes dishonest. We are past that point. If someone defends the basics of what you say, and you know they disagree with and are a professing Christian; you really out to at least PM them and give an honest heads up. I gave several opportunities to refute or confirm that you were JW, if that is the case.

The debate in Christendom centers around the Logos. The Logos is almost universally misunderstood. There is a big enough internal challenge for the integrity of the Christian faith without including belief systems beyond an inclusive boundary.

Now my concern is that Devo, wakeup, Journey, and others may be "masquerading" as non-Christians. I'm willing to take on any view in a scriptural debate if I feel it's worthwhile and the "opponent" approaches the subject with transparent integrity and unveiled honesty. If you are JW, you have not done so.

If that is the case, I recommend two things:
- Just be honest and forthright now and going forward.
- Realize and accept that Christianity and JW faiths are two incompatible and irreconcilable belief systems.

If the JW faith (or Muslim, or Hindu, etc., etc.) is substantial and correct, let it stand on its own without hybridizing or proselytizing to/from/with the Christian faith.

Preying upon the difficulties of internal Christian apologetics to promote and integrate the JW faith is disingenuous, especially to those who are gracious and trusting enough not to presume you are less than forthright.

Please concisely clear the air with a simple answer that you are or are not representing JW views.

I disaffirm the Trinity doctrine of three "persons", but affirm the bulk of the surrounding principles. Please be so candid yourself.

livingbygrace · Apr 16, 2011

PneumaPsucheSoma said:

Hi PPS

Well as I know nothing personally of the JW faith(apart from the fact they are supposed not to accept a blood transfusion) I cannot in truth comment on their views. What is the NWT by the way?

As to my reply concerning who Christ is in Heaven

I can give plain verses of scripture that show he was in the OT refered to as the angel of the Lord. In fact I have already given many such examples of this in debate

I am afraid I do not have a very philosophical mind, but rather a very simple faith.

I do not see Father, son , or the angels as human beings in Heaven, but was simply trying to show that to my mind they are 'spirit beings'

Therefore Christ to me anyway is a 'spirit being' in Heaven. I'm afraid I can't go into depth with you more than that

What I can affirm is that in accordance with scripture Christ is higher than the angels, indeed all power and authority has been given to him by his Father in Heaven and on earth and he reigns now and will do until all dominion, power and authority has been defeated
Then he will hand the kingdom over to his Father and be subject to him and God will be all in all

But if you ask me to try and intrinsically work out spirit manfestations in Heaven, that I fully accept is beyond me.

I do not personally think of Christ as an angel as such, but he is refered to as an angel in the OT. If you would like proof of this I will happily give you the scriptures, though I doubt you need them given.
I see Christ as the son of God, set apart from the angels and above them, but to me the son is not the one true God and the Father is greater than the son

If I have not explained this as well as I should please feel free to ask me to further explain

livingbygrace · Apr 16, 2011

Can I also add. I have no affiliation to anyone. I am non denominational and the only book I read is the Bible

I simply speak honestly here.

An internationally known Evangelist has prayed with me, confirmed I speak in tongues and told me much about my life though they had never met me before. They said other things as well. If you would like to know please pm me and I will tell you by private message

So if the Evangelist is of God, He must accept me with my beliefs, but many men(I do not include you in this) do not because they do not stand on scripture

PneumaPsucheSoma · Apr 16, 2011

livingbygrace said:

Fair enough.

Do you see the Word becoming flesh as a creative act/event or a procreative act/event or neither?

Was Jesus a pre-existent "spirit being" (of whatever constitution) prior to the Incarnation?

If so, was that an eternal pre-existence?

If not, when did the Word come into existence?

Was Jesus created or uncreated?

(The NWT is the JW's New World Translation of Sctipture. Some of your references to "through" rather than "by" Jesus are trademark differences presented in the NWT translation.)

My support for "perimeter" salvific beliefs centers on several core things. It's a bit difficult to determine where you stand at this point. Perhaps if you were able to narrow it down and put more effort into expressing as specifically as possible.

I have no desire to disrespect you or your faith, as I feel I've shown. I'd just like to know where to draw certain lines for my own conduct and communication. Your belief and salvation is entirely between you and the Savior of mankind. I do not judge you or your salvation. I do have a responsibilty for how I represent myself and own faith, though.

Any more details you could contemplate about and express? Thanks.

livingbygrace · Apr 16, 2011

livingbygrace said:

Also to add. This is where this subject is often taken far beyond that which is needed
I have always simply seen Christ as the Son of God. A son who reflects truly who the Father is

I have never sat down and considered.

'Is Christ an angel?

Was he an angel before he became a son?

When did the Father begat the son? etc

This is what I call seeking 'vain theology'

A simple, childlike faith that Christ is the son of God is all that is BIBLICALLY required. The one true son of God

No Christian is expected to spend huge amounts of time going beyond this simple stratement. For to do so detracts from looking to the son, trusting on him and following after the spirit and doing the work required of the individual

And today this subject has been taken to such a level that Christians actually believe they have insight which is not mentined in the Bible and they believe they can make demands concerning this subject that is not Biblical. On this point I have respected you for standing on plain scripture

anyone who simply believes Christ is the son of God, he came to this earth and died for our sins and that if we repent of our sin and ask him into our lives as Lord and Saviour we are saved on that basis

And I am not interested in the least in people who consider themselves so Biblically literate and/or a scholar/thepologian who goes beyond that in what they consider a neccessity for salvation

They are wrong according to the written word, and have a wrong set of values, priorities, and understasnding AND SHOULD BE DISMISSED

livingbygrace · Apr 16, 2011

PneumaPsucheSoma said:

Fair enough.

Lol PPS

I will try my best with the folowing but from a quick glance I have not sat down and deeply considered the following at all, but here goes!

Do you see the Word becoming flesh as a creative act/event or a procreative act/event or neither?

Christ is the word of God, he became flesh through no act of man, but the Holy Ghost came upon Mary and she became pregnant
Sorry I don't understand creative/proactiver event I am a simple person with simple beliefs

Was Jesus a pre-existent "spirit being" (of whatever constitution) prior to the Incarnation?

Jesus was preexistent to being born of Mary

If so, was that an eternal pre-existence?

I believe the Father existed before all else including the son, but in time as we know it the son has always existed and was with the Father from the begining as we would understand time
Hope that is not too confusing for you I am just trying to be totally honest

If not, when did the Word come into existence?

If I am honest this is where this subject becomes beyond the realm of anyonmes earthly understanding
I believe rthe Father is the one true God. He existed before all else. Please refer to my previous answer. How can I give you a date when He brought his son into preexistence before he came to earth or before the earth was formed?

Was Jesus created or uncreated?

I have already explained on earth
I believe the son was brought into existence by the Father before time began as we know it

(The NWT is the JW's New World Translation of Sctipture. Some of your references to "through" rather than "by" Jesus are trademark differences presented in the NWT translation.)

My support for "perimeter" salvific beliefs centers on several core things. It's a bit difficult to determine where you stand at this point. Perhaps if you were able to narrow it down and put more effort into expressing as specifically as possible.

I have no desire to disrespect you or your faith, as I feel I've shown. I'd just like to know where to draw certain lines for my own conduct and communication. Your belief and salvation is entirely between you and the Savior of mankind. I do not judge you or your salvation. I do have a responsibilty for how I represent myself and own faith, though.

Any more details you could contemplate about and express? Thanks.

PPS

I admire and respect you but if I am honest BIBLICALLY I know of nowhere we need to answer ALL of the questions you put to me to decide if someone can be saved, however I have tried to truthfully answer them, though as I have stated they are not questions(some of them) that have ever consumed my mind

PneumaPsucheSoma · Apr 16, 2011

livingbygrace said:

I largely agree with this (with a few caveats), and I think I've shown that; to the point of engaging others about it.

Two things to consider, that I think you'll understand. First, basic salvific child-like faith is the inception of the spiritual walk. Love is to abound in us unto clear and exact experiential knowledge as we mature in the Spirit (Phi. 1:9). What might be minimally acceptable to initially demonstrate childlike faith unto salvation is not acceptable as we grow in Christ. Ephesians 4 has given us positional functions to bring us to that knowledge of the Son of God, etc. Secondly, there are many who feign a simple non-doctrinal faith, but hold many intricate teachings while demanding such simplicity.

I agree with your simple contention for simple salvific faith, which is what I've slapped everyone else around for adding to. There does come a progressive process of receiving greater revelation by the spirit of wisdom. My issue has been that most substitute the doctrines of men for true revelation of the Spirit.

As long as you bring no excess baggage to your simple faith, I maintain that you stand on the basic salvific truth required in Scripture. I hope you see the stewardship and maturity of growing beyond that as the years come and go.

PneumaPsucheSoma · Apr 16, 2011

livingbygrace said:

I'm just trying to eliminate the possibility that you bring a veiled doctrinal stance in the guise of simplicity of unformulated doctrines. This should actually validate your credibility to others, IF they are rational (which most Trinitarians are not).

I think you represent the basic childlike faith that is the essential for eternal life. I see no reason for someone to contest that. Thanks. Your answers were appreciated. My intent was not to engage each of those subjects, but to see how simply you adhered to your basic tenet of "belief that Jesus Christ was the Son of God". A child can understand this. A theologian cannot.

AnandaHya · Apr 16, 2011

Red33 said:

lol I knew there was a reason I liked you Red. its nice not to be the only one who sees this plot to deceive the world. i was getting tired of having a certain poster tell me I needed to seek medical help and medication. i know its not really funny but if i don't life i'd cry about it all. the enemy has strongholds in many people's minds and they like to exalt themselves against the knowledge of God, which is simply:

JESUS IS THE GOD and He came to die for our transgression so that we might through His sacrifice become adopted children and live righteously through the guidance of the Holy Spirit who unveils the mysteries of life contained in the Holy Bible.

2 Corinthians 10:4-5 (New King James Version)

4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, 5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,

i'm not reading the rest of the posts after this one, i think i'd rather read my Bible. God's blessings to all God's people.

livingbygrace · Apr 16, 2011

PneumaPsucheSoma said:

My main concern with this subject is as you know the false teaching concening what a person is required to believe to have eternal life
Though I accept your point that as a person grows as a Christian, they come into a deeper understanding of the spiritual I am not personally convinced that this must include being in any way consumed with the person of who Christ is. Now I would say that I know, but what matters most to God is whether a person will yield their life to him, take up their cross and follow after his son. It would be easy to get bogged down in something that I believe is beyond a human to ever fully understand

You asked me if I could elaborate on my beief. I will try, but remember this is not a subject that I personally feel the need to delve into in this respect, simply to defend the Gospel truth of what is required for salvation and to defend how I believe we must see the person of Christ

To an extent I agree with a comment of yours. The nature of who Christ is is not so much the issue here as the title given

I believe the Spirit proceeds from the Father and exhibits in the son fully. I believe that Christ is not the Father but an individual if you like in his own right as the son. Biut and this is a big but. The fulness of the Godhead bodily dwells in Christ. You can say that the father is fully in Christ via the Spirit. I have said this previoiusly a couple of times. The son is the channel through whom the Father works
I do believe the universe was created THROUGH Christ for that is what scripture says or by whom' depending on which translation you read; so in that instance things made were of the Father by whom the son, but I don't like to get into it that intrinsically

So if someone says they believe Christ is God Himself as the Father via the spirit is fully in Christ I guess I see how they reach that conclusion, unfortunately much plain scripture refutes that belief, as to how we must view Christ.

So to me you have, Father, son and spirit and the three are as one in the Spirit
The Father and son are of one heart and one mind in the spirit

Why do I say this?

Because Christ prayed that we the believers would be one AS he and his Father are one. And we the believers can only be one in the spirit, of one heart and mind in the spirit, but we remain individuals, you cannot be me and I cannot be you
That they may be one AS we are one

So that to me is the crux of this. Can the Spirit fully exhibit in Christ but he remains the son of God and not God Himself. To my rational mind probably not, but according to scripture definately IMO
I am not called to rationalise, but to BELIEVE

Jesus Christ was God manifest in the Flesh

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