Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
There is NO everlasting punishment if the soul simply ceases to exist. Punishment requires conscious awareness.

SO YOU SAY.

So the Bible says.

But WHAT IS WRITTEN?

Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Like I said, so says the Bible. They will be tormented "day and night, for ever and ever" as Rev 20:10 says and the "smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever". Clear as crystal!

FORGET the words and THINK about what you are saying.

I am saying EXACTLY what the Bible says. Why don't you do that?

MAN who's life is but a 'second' in the span of all eternity because he doesn't 'LOVE GOD' must spend the rest of all time in pain and sufferings.

OK, there's the problem. You're getting all maudlin and such. You do have a soft heart.

That is like creating a rattlesnake and then when it bites you making it suffer FOREVER AND EVER AND EVER because IT DIDN'T STOP ITSELF.

Not even close. You simply don't LIKE God's plan for those who refuse the free gift. They will get what they asked for.

Romans 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Romans 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

2288. thanatos ►
Strong's Concordance
thanatos: death
Original Word: θάνατος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: thanatos
Phonetic Spelling: (than'-at-os)
Definition: death
Usage: death, physical or spiritual.
HELPS Word-studies
2288 thánatos (derived from 2348 /thnḗskō, "to die") – physical or spiritual death; (figuratively) separation from the life (salvation) of God forever by dying without first experiencing death to self to receive His gift of salvation.[/QUOTE]
Actually, once I actually realized that all unbelievers will be physically resurrected in order to appear before the GWT for judgment, and then cast into the lake of fire, which is also called the "second death", Rom 6:21-23 refers to another physical death.

Everyone is born spiritually dead. They can't die spiritually twice. No verse says that.

Even for those who believe that spiritual death occurs at a person's first conscious sin, so what? That is still spiritual death.

And NO ONE will spiritually die twice.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

622. apollumi ►
Strong's Concordance
apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly
Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Definition: to destroy, destroy utterly
Usage: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing (the resultant death being viewed as certain).
HELPS Word-studies
622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy") – properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).

Focus on the "usage" here. That's why Matt 10:28 refers to.

622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction" (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.

Yep, I agree that physically being burned up will be "a miserable end".

That may not be good enough for you, and so we disagree.

What is "good enough" for me is what the Bible says. None of the verses you share support your claim that souls cease to exist.

I will not be having any further discussions on the subject with you so go on about your name calling and put forth those narrow views, I have done as I am supposed to and now will follow through on the same.

Before you go, please show me the "name calling" you accuse me of. Cite the post # too.

Thanks.

At least you admitted where the disagreement lies. You are sadly maudlin. It has clouded your thinking.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
All of your "annihilation" theory is debunked by Rev 20:10

No, so says the Bible.

YOUR interpretations of what is written is the problem. YOU SAY they must be conscious, does GOD?

Yes, He DID. Dan 12:2, Matt 25:46 and Rev 20:10. But apparently those verses aren't good enough for your maudlin sentiments.

Why being separated from God isn't punishment enough for you I DON'T UNDERSTAND.

I accept your failure to comprehend. For those who don't even believe in God, being separated from Him means NOTHING to them anyway. Why can't you grasp that?

If they aren't screaming in TOTAL pain forever and ever BECAUSE for a season they were evil, just doesn't work FOR YOU?

Your sentence needs fixing. It doesn't make sense. As to your dramatic "screaming in total pain", who said anything about that? We know from how Jesus described the afterlife that while the rich man WAS in "torments", he was able to carry on a conversation, something that ISN'T POSSIBLE when you are "screaming in TOTAL pain". Why don't you comprehend that?

And Jesus was real clear about eternity for unbelievers; it will be more "tolerable" for some and less "tolerable" for others.

If all unbelievers simply cease to exist, there will be NEITHER "more or less tolerable-ness" for any of them. Do you want to argue with Jesus?

Matt 11:24 - But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you.”

Do you get what Jesus was telling people? He said citizens of Sodom, known for their extreme immorality and depravity will have it "more tolerable" than for those of Jesus' day, who SAW His miracles yet rejected Him as God's Son.

The GOD I have come to know and LOVE wouldn't want or need a lesser being, being in ETERNAL pain and suffering.

OK, but then, this is an admission that you STILL DON'T know the God of the Bible.

GOD will punish, NOT TORTURE, which is what YOU ARE REQUIRING. WHAT would be the point in that? That is nothing short of evil mean WICKED and nasty.

I don't "require" anything. I simply ACCEPT what the Bible says. And I DO reject your maudlin sentiments. They aren't biblical.

Jesus told of a rich man who went to torments after death. But that bothers you, right? He is still there, IN torments. Get over it.

And your opinion about what you mistakenly think about God's judgment counts for nothing.

What the Bible says counts for everything.

 

[FreeGrace2]

kleronomos said:
ARE YOU KIDDING? Would you make your dog suffer forever and ever because he chose another over you? NO, ITS JUST A DUMB DOG. Unless you yourself are so cruel something like that would seem RIGHTEOUS.

interesting idealism.
we will have to agree to disagree.

More like a severe case of maudlin sentiments.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

kleronomos said:
ARE YOU KIDDING? Would you make your dog suffer forever and ever because he chose another over you? NO, ITS JUST A DUMB DOG. Unless you yourself are so cruel something like that would seem RIGHTEOUS.

More like a severe case of maudlin sentiments.

if you read Matthew 24:40-41 you notice Verse 42 explains what it is discussing 1 taken and 1 left.
42 Therefore stay alert; for you do not know what day your Lord is coming.

i know it's not about theft but about the Lord's return. i see no reason to discuss it when the opposing view is as opposite as it was. we are not going to find middle ground and i'd rather have a friend than an enemy when it comes to Believers in Christ.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

also, whether we believe pre/mid/post/3 trips/etc it's not a Salvation issue. no one is going to hell for getting this wrong.

 

[FreeGrace2]

if you read Matthew 24:40-41 you notice Verse 42 explains what it is discussing 1 taken and 1 left.
42 Therefore stay alert; for you do not know what day your Lord is coming.

i know it's not about theft but about the Lord's return. i see no reason to discuss it when the opposing view is as opposite as it was. we are not going to find middle ground and i'd rather have a friend than an enemy when it comes to Believers in Christ.

Yes, I am aware of the context. The "Lord's return" specifically refers to the Second Advent, when Christ returns as the King of kings, and Lord of lords, to reign physically on earth for 1,000 years.

My discussion with kleronomos is about annihilationism, which teaches that the souls of unbelievers will be annihilated after the GWT judgment. That would mean since they no longer exist, they would experience nothing.

But the Bible plainly says they will be tormented day and night, for ever and ever. That's hard to argue against.

kleronomos played his hand on what drives his view, which is his maudlin sentiments. He just can't fathom God allowing unbelievers to exist forever in torments.

 

[FreeGrace2]

also, whether we believe pre/mid/post/3 trips/etc it's not a Salvation issue. no one is going to hell for getting this wrong.

That is correct. However, wouldn't it be better to know the truth? Only 1 claim is the truth.

Consider this: those who are dead set on a pretrib rapture with trip to heaven, finally realize they are IN the Tribulation, what would be the probable reaction, since they were dead set on the Bible teaching a pretrib rapture, and here they are, IN the Trib. Kinda like a "left behind" scenario. Wouldn't that severely test their faith?

I'd rather expect to go into the Trib and be surprised with a pretrib trip to heaven (I know that won't happen) than expect a pretrib trip to heaven but find myself IN the Trib.

2 Peter 3:16 - All Scripture is God breathed, and is PROFITABLE for doctrine, reproof, correction an instruction in righteousness.

 

[TheLearner]

ohee, I am not going to keep up

 

[kleronomos]

So the Bible says.

No, I proved that ISN'T what was written, just what you thought.

Like I said, so says the Bible. They will be tormented "day and night, for ever and ever" as Rev 20:10 says and the "smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever". Clear as crystal!

AGAIN, WHAT is happening? the SMOKE OF THEIR TORMENT ASCENDS for ever and ever and trying to LUMP THAT IN with WHO is tormented for ever and ever - IS A CONCLUSION ON YOUR PART. So yes, it is CRYSTAL clear TO YOU, but IT STILL ISN'T WHAT IS WRITTEN.

You can say it and say it and say it, STILL doesn't make it what is written, just what YOU BELIEVE

 

[kleronomos]

Your sentence needs fixing. It doesn't make sense. As to your dramatic "screaming in total pain", who said anything about that? We know from how Jesus described the afterlife that while the rich man WAS in "torments", he was able to carry on a conversation, something that ISN'T POSSIBLE when you are "screaming in TOTAL pain". Why don't you comprehend that?

And Jesus was real clear about eternity for unbelievers; it will be more "tolerable" for some and less "tolerable" for others.

If all unbelievers simply cease to exist, there will be NEITHER "more or less tolerable-ness" for any of them. Do you want to argue with Jesus?

Matt 11:24 - But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you.”

Do you get what Jesus was telling people? He said citizens of Sodom, known for their extreme immorality and depravity will have it "more tolerable" than for those of Jesus' day, who SAW His miracles yet rejected Him as God's Son.

Well, how convenient. Just what was needed for a little condescension. Couldn't let such an opportunity go to waste...

Are the words your belief brings to my mind too much? Aren't you trying TO MAKE SURE a person is conscious for all eternity of their PUNISHMENT and pain? OR is that too descriptive now? Any ways, the MORE OR LESS comes before the final judgment IN HELL, not once HELL gives up those in it at the GWTJ.

This is starting to feel just like the disregarding of the 'firstfruits of them that slept resurrection', back when Death was defeated and the graves were opened.

 

[Jackson123]

2 tests 2
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

According to bOaul, it is postrib

 

[FreeGrace2]

AGAIN, WHAT is happening? the SMOKE OF THEIR TORMENT ASCENDS for ever and ever and trying to LUMP THAT IN with WHO is tormented for ever and ever - IS A CONCLUSION ON YOUR PART. So yes, it is CRYSTAL clear TO YOU, but IT STILL ISN'T WHAT IS WRITTEN.

There isn't anything about "smoke" in Rev 20:10. Just the FACT that they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The FACT that a clear time frame (day and night) was included PROVES that unbelievers will be tormented literally for ever.

You can say it and say it and say it, STILL doesn't make it what is written, just what YOU BELIEVE

It IS what is written. I gave you 3 verses, but you are so maudlin in your sentiments, you just won't believe the Bible.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Your sentence needs fixing. It doesn't make sense. As to your dramatic "screaming in total pain", who said anything about that? We know from how Jesus described the afterlife that while the rich man WAS in "torments", he was able to carry on a conversation, something that ISN'T POSSIBLE when you are "screaming in TOTAL pain". Why don't you comprehend that?

And Jesus was real clear about eternity for unbelievers; it will be more "tolerable" for some and less "tolerable" for others.

If all unbelievers simply cease to exist, there will be NEITHER "more or less tolerable-ness" for any of them. Do you want to argue with Jesus?

Well, how convenient. Just what was needed for a little condescension. Couldn't let such an opportunity go to waste...

Do you EVEN read what I post?? I quoted what Jesus said, and you come back with a ridiculous "condescension" comment.

Are the words your belief brings to my mind too much?

Huh? Why would I be interested in what anything "brins to your mind"?? Apparently the truth of Scripture seems to be too much for you anyway. Your maudlin sentiments keep getting in your way to the truth.

Aren't you trying TO MAKE SURE a person is conscious for all eternity of their PUNISHMENT and pain?

As if I have any power over any of this. Don't make me laugh. I am sharing what the Bible says, and says clearly.

Dan 12:2, Matt 25:46 and Rev 10:28 REFUTE your maudlin sentiments.

OR is that too descriptive now? Any ways, the MORE OR LESS comes before the final judgment IN HELL, not once HELL gives up those in it at the GWTJ.

When Jesus said "that day" He was referring to final judgment. But go ahead and deceive yourself some more.

 

[kleronomos]

The FACT that a clear time frame (day and night) was included PROVES that unbelievers will be tormented literally for ever.

No, it doesn't.

 

[kleronomos]

It IS what is written. I gave you 3 verses, but you are so maudlin in your sentiments, you just won't believe the Bible.

What was written and what you say was written are two different things.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
The FACT that a clear time frame (day and night) was included PROVES that unbelievers will be tormented literally for ever.

No, it doesn't.

Please explain to me what "day and night" means then, if not a time frame, like, oh, say, 24 hours.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
It IS what is written. I gave you 3 verses, but you are so maudlin in your sentiments, you just won't believe the Bible.

What was written and what you say was written are two different things.

Then quote each of these verses, with an explanation of what they mean.

Dan 12:2, Matt 25:46 and Rev 20:10.

Then we'll discuss.

 

[HatedForNoReason]

What was written and what you say was written are two different things.

John 18:36
King James Version

36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Don't know why people keep believing in a physical kingdom, which is history getting repeated just like the Jews during Jesus 1st Coming. Where they believe in a physical kingdom.

kingdom of Satan to kingdom of God.

Thousand year spiritual kingdom is talking about God's elects being given the Holy Spirit. Which is also the first resurrection. Everyone is spiritually died until God gives the Holy Spirit to his elects, some point in their life.

1 Corinthians 15:24-26
King James Version

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Armageddon is a one sided victory and please don't take everything in Revelation literally.

 

[HatedForNoReason]

What was written and what you say was written are two different things.

Genesis 2:17
New King James Version

17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you[a] shall surely die.”

Spiritual death=Separation from God.

 

[kleronomos]

Don't know why people keep believing in a physical kingdom, which is history getting repeated just like the Jews during Jesus 1st Coming. Where they believe in a physical kingdom.

People keep thinking it is because it is. DAVID is of this earth. That is the throne He will sit upon.

If they 'Jews' would have accepted and not rejected the kingdom and the King, IT would have happened right here on earth just as it will again.

There are 2 Advents. The day of vengeance is the 2nd one and JUST LIKE THE FIRST ONE was physical and on earth this next one will be ON earth but spiritual.



2 Kings 6:14 Therefore sent he thither horses, and chariots, and a great host: and they came by night, and compassed the city about.

2 Kings 6:15 And when the servant of the man of God was risen early, and gone forth, behold, an host compassed the city both with horses and chariots. And his servant said unto him, Alas, my master! how shall we do?

2 Kings 6:16 And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them.

2 Kings 6:17 And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

2Kings 6:18 And when they came down to him, Elisha prayed unto the LORD, and said, Smite this people, I pray thee, with blindness. And he smote them with blindness according to the word of Elisha.

FAITH IS BELIEVING WITHOUT SEEING. The spiritual world is NO LESS PHYSICAL just not of an EARTHEN body, but a spiritual body on the earth. Just like in the beginning when the sons of God were watching the earth being created. Another subject completely so I will say no more.