Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

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Jul 23, 2018
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"""Noah wasn't "removed" from the earth. In fact, he STAYED on earth, he just floated above the land for a while. Your "example" fails miserably."""

LOL
Not only was Noah gathered pre-flood during life as usual, pre-judgement, with only the elect, and we will note that none of the in-laws we're gathered, but we're left behind, into the ark( a type of heaven) THEN taken a mile into the sky....but....here is the clincher
...HE RETURNED IN THE ARK TO EARTH POSTRIB
 
Jul 23, 2018
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"""Noah wasn't "removed" from the earth. In fact, he STAYED on earth, he just floated above the land for a while. Your "example" fails miserably."""

LOL
Not only was Noah gathered pre-flood during life as usual, pre-judgement, with only the elect, and we will note that none of the in-laws we're gathered, but we're left behind, into the ark( a type of heaven) THEN taken a mile into the sky....but....here is the clincher
...HE RETURNED IN THE ARK TO EARTH POSTRIB
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I do not know how such a vivid picture of a pretrib gathering could be painted.

Vivid
Vivid
Pretrib rapture picture with a postrib return BACK TO EARTH BONUS.
 

lamad

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Apr 14, 2021
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Show me any verse that supports your opinion. Thanks.


Yes, please show me the Bible writings that support your opinion.
One thing I think we can agree on: we don't read scripture the same way.

For example, I read of the Day of His wrath at the 6th seal in chapter 6 and simply believe John wrote exactly what He saw in the vision in the same order he saw it. Therefore, I believe God's wrath begins when Jesus breaks the 6th seal on the book in chapter 6 of Revelation, and then later breaks the 7th seal that starts the 70th week. (God marked the 70th week with 7's for our convenience.) (The rapture of the church will be the trigger for the Start of the Day of His wrath. They will participate in the "first" or primary resurrection - the resurrection for the righteous.)

Then I read in chapter 7, BEFORE God begins the 70th week by opening the 7th seal and giving 7 angels 7 trumpets, that God wants to - MUST - see two events happen before His wrath begins to be poured out: He MUST see the 144,000 sealed for their protection, and He MUST see the church - His bride - safely in heaven. CHECK! These things are accomplished in chapter 7, so Jesus can then open the 7th seal and officially begin the 70th week - with the 30 minutes of silence.

Next John wrote of the first 6 trumpet judgments. The Two Witnesses suddenly show up just days before the midpoint of the week, marked by the 7th trumpet. The 7th is again a marker, marking the moment the man of sin enters the temple and starts his abomination. Also at the 7th trumpet, a property closing takes place in the court room of heaven: satan is kicked off his throne and earth is given back to Jesus Christ - the rightful owner.

Seconds later those in Judea begin to flee, as shown in 12:6. Since Satan no longer has any legal hold to anything of earth, Michael and the angels kick Satan down from the heavenly realms over the earth - we might say, Michael takes away Satan's wings: Satan is now confined to walk the earth - war in the heavenlies as we read in Rev. 12.

Next John sees the rise of the Antichrist Beast and the second beast, the False Prophet, and John sees what they will do later on in the week: force people to worship an image and force people to accept a mark of allegiance.

Next, God sends three angels to warn people in their own language. One of the warnings is NOT to accept the mark.

John does not say it in so many words, but after the warning, the days of great tribulation begin.

Rev. 15 shows those martyred by the Beasts begin to show up in heaven. Also in chapter 15, the preparations for the vials and plagues of God's wrath.

Finally in chapter 16 God has had enough and sends the angels with the plagues and vials of His wrath to SHORTEN those days of GT. Again another marker: the 7th vial marks the END of the 70th week. Jesus does NOT return then. The violent earthquake at the 7th vial shows us the timing of the resurrection of the Old Testament saints, including those from before the great flood. Pulling together the "dust" that once made up those bodies of the righteous before the flood will cause a mighty earthquake. The "dust" that once made up just one body may well be scattered over thousands of miles - but God will reform those bodies just as they were and they changed them into resurrection bodies that will never die. The Old Testament saints also participate in the "first" or CHIEF of resurrections - for the righteous. Along with them, the Two witness will rise and all those beheaded by the Beasts. This will be the final group to participate in this CHIEF of resurrections - the one for the righteous.

Chapters 17 and 18 show the destruction of the Great wh**re Babylon, the MYSTERY city of Jerusalem where the Beast and False Prophet deceived the ENTIRE WORLD.

Chapter 19 recaps the destruction of Babylon, then shows us the marriage and supper taking place IN HEAVEN right then, at the timing of that chapter. After the marriage, heaven is emptied and all of God's saints, all in resurrection bodies, get on white horses and descend to earth to Armageddon.

Chapter 20 shows Satan bound and shows us a glimpse of the Millennial reign: John sees thrones and people seated on thrones judging. They would be the Old Testament saints along with the New Testament saints. He also sees the beheaded reigning with Christ.

Next the 1000 year reign is ended with another rebellion that is put down. After that, heaven and earth disappear for the great, White Throne judgment.

Next: a NEW heaven and earth.

See how simply John made it if we just read it as He wrote it?
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Did God remove the Jews from Egypt when He blasted the Egyptians with the 10 plagues? No. They stayed RIGHT WHERE THEY WERE.


OK, finally you provide some "context" with which to comment.

v.26: prove that the "days of the Son of man" means the Trib or just before the Trib. I would say the "days of the some of man" would be way more likely the Millennial reign. Recall that Jesus will rule the nations with a rod of iron. Gonna be very strict. And by the end, yes, and He will "destroy them all".
v.29: same as v.26, a reference to the end of the Millennium. Where all unbelievers are destroyed.
v.30: an OBVIOUS reference to the Second Coming. Not a day before that. Because that is when Jesus wil be revealed.
v.34,35,36: an obvious reference to the gathering.


Noah wasn't "removed" from the earth. In fact, he STAYED on earth, he just floated above the land for a while. Your "example" fails miserably.

Lot also wasn't "removed" from the earth. He was just relocated to an adjacent piece of real estate.

what about Jesus? What are you trying to refer to?


By the time the Trib rolls around, the VAST MAJORITY of the church will ALREADY be in heaven. And you CANNOT find any verse that supports your presumption that Jesus takes raptured believers to heaven.


Yes, my explanation sure is. Your examples of Noah, Lot and Jesus failed terribly.
"""By the time the Trib rolls around, the VAST MAJORITY of the church will ALREADY be in heaven. And you CANNOT find any verse that supports your presumption that Jesus takes raptured believers to heaven.""""

GETTING WARMER!!!!!!

YES

All the church in heaven....including the harvest of the 144k ETHNIC JEWS vividly portrayed as first fruits. Depicted in heaven.( you know, the place where the Jews are gathered to in rev 14) so here we have the first fruits 144000 ethnic jews in heaven, Before the Throne of God, being first fruit jews, and illustrating, that by being first fruits , the main Harvest jews will shortly follow..... and we are not disappointed because we see in verse 14 that the main body of Jews is gathered during the tribulation, by Jesus sitting on a cloud. So there we have it, a gathering to heaven by Jesus of jews, and obviously the last ones seated at the marriage supper in heaven as depicted in the Bible.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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You have not. I've asked repeatedly for a verse that plainly and unambiguously describes Jesus taking raptured people to heaven, the very essence of your pretrib theory. And you know very well you don't have any such verse.

Stop acting as if you have a verse.
when the ac comes after the saints left behind and kills them all, you will be 100% correct that those that die populate heaven as you will arrive a little late.

The ac kills all refusing the mark.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Did God remove the Jews from Egypt when He blasted the Egyptians with the 10 plagues? No. They stayed RIGHT WHERE THEY WERE.


OK, finally you provide some "context" with which to comment.

v.26: prove that the "days of the Son of man" means the Trib or just before the Trib. I would say the "days of the some of man" would be way more likely the Millennial reign. Recall that Jesus will rule the nations with a rod of iron. Gonna be very strict. And by the end, yes, and He will "destroy them all".
v.29: same as v.26, a reference to the end of the Millennium. Where all unbelievers are destroyed.
v.30: an OBVIOUS reference to the Second Coming. Not a day before that. Because that is when Jesus wil be revealed.
v.34,35,36: an obvious reference to the gathering.


Noah wasn't "removed" from the earth. In fact, he STAYED on earth, he just floated above the land for a while. Your "example" fails miserably.

Lot also wasn't "removed" from the earth. He was just relocated to an adjacent piece of real estate.

what about Jesus? What are you trying to refer to?


By the time the Trib rolls around, the VAST MAJORITY of the church will ALREADY be in heaven. And you CANNOT find any verse that supports your presumption that Jesus takes raptured believers to heaven.


Yes, my explanation sure is. Your examples of Noah, Lot and Jesus failed terribly.
"""Lot also wasn't "removed" from the earth. He was just relocated to an adjacent piece of real estate."""

Lol
You just described lot as removed.
Yes i agree he was removed prejudgement.
( looks like we both see Gods people removed before judgement)

Pssssst....your deal NEEDS lot removed AFTER judgement.....hello....your deal needs lot GOING THROUGH, NOT REMOVED, BUT PROTECTED IN THE FIRE.

Creative postrib rapture workbook failure.
Big time.

Omit...omit
...repeat
 
Jul 23, 2018
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"""Yes, my explanation sure is. Your examples of Noah, Lot and Jesus failed terribly."""

You sure showed is alright.!

So eloquently showed us neither lot or noah gathered prejudgement.

Lot went through the fire and was gathered into the air AFTER the city burned to the ground and noah went high into the sky AFTER the flood.

Wow...what translation was that???
Can we say......oooops?
 
Jan 31, 2021
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Moses and the hebrews were gathered into the wilderness and into the law and judgement.
So that ruins that analogy.
means nothing. Certainly doesn't support you theory.

A better one ( if of course you are interested in exegesis) would be the Jews ( INDEED IN THE TRIB) Ushered away in revelation with satan on their tail ( ahem, to destroy them with water).
And why do you think this works for you? What you need and don't have is a verse that unambiguously SHOWS Jesus taking raptured believers to heaven. Not even one.

Much better fot than to just throw out the entire church gathered to the wilderness with thousands DESTROYED and put under the law....just make some " point" you need
Why do you erroneously assume that I "need" this nonsense. Not at all. I have clear verses from the Bible. That's all I need.

It's you with the problem of verses you desperately NEED but don't have.

But you are close, as the 5 foolish VIRGINS ( carnal believers) are indeed left behind)....to die as Gods word says.
Please show me any verse that teaches that Jesus takes ANYONE to heaven just before the Trib.

You know, THE verse you need but don't have.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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"""Noah wasn't "removed" from the earth. In fact, he STAYED on earth, he just floated above the land for a while. Your "example" fails miserably."""

Nobody goes into such ridiculousness.
You are right. So why do you???

Noah was gathered PREJUDGEMENT into the ARK ( a type of heaven) and THEN went up into the clouds over a mile above the earth.
So you measured the depth of the flood?

Try...please try ....to get that picture painted VIVIDLY....BY THE HOLY BIBLE.
Wow. That has nothing to do with any rapture. And it leaves out the resurrection as well.

""""Noah wasn't "removed" from the earth. In fact, he STAYED on earth, he just floated above the land for a while. Your "example" fails miserably."""

LOL.....GOT BIBLE?????
Please read yours.

Psssst...you do realize you NEED Noah REMOVED AFTER THE FLOOD??????
lol. But you don't realize that I don't need that. I have clear verses that you have rejected. But they are clear nonetheless.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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"""Noah wasn't "removed" from the earth. In fact, he STAYED on earth, he just floated above the land for a while. Your "example" fails miserably."""

LOL
Not only was Noah gathered pre-flood during life as usual, pre-judgement, with only the elect, and we will note that none of the in-laws we're gathered, but we're left behind, into the ark( a type of heaven) THEN taken a mile into the sky....but....here is the clincher
...HE RETURNED IN THE ARK TO EARTH POSTRIB
All I can say is that you have a very active imagination.

A for effort but F- for truth.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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"""Lot also wasn't "removed" from the earth. He was just relocated to an adjacent piece of real estate."""

Lol
You just described lot as removed.
Yes i agree he was removed prejudgement.
( looks like we both see Gods people removed before judgement)

Pssssst....your deal NEEDS lot removed AFTER judgement.....hello....your deal needs lot GOING THROUGH, NOT REMOVED, BUT PROTECTED IN THE FIRE.

Creative postrib rapture workbook failure.
Big time.

Omit...omit
...repeat
Seems you are really really desperate to try to find anything that you can squint hard enough and see "rapture".

Sure.
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
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True. I take it for what it SAYS. Clear and unambigously.
No you don't! You CERTAINLY don't take Rev. 19 for what it says. You have to MOVE the marriage and supper to a later TIME and a later PLACE.
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
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You are right. So why do you???


So you measured the depth of the flood?


Wow. That has nothing to do with any rapture. And it leaves out the resurrection as well.


Please read yours.


lol. But you don't realize that I don't need that. I have clear verses that you have rejected. But they are clear nonetheless.
Perhaps you did not understand Jesus' point in bringing up Noah: it was ONLY to point out the suddeness of their destrcution: living life to the fullest (eating, drinking marrying...) right up to the day they died.

Of course you can use Noah and Lot as types, but that was not Jesus' intent.
 
Jun 12, 2021
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You don't understand any of your 4 points. John put a title on a resurrection and you imagine it is a one time event, when in truth it covers Jesus' resurrection as the firstfruits, and then all the other resurrections of the righteous over time. For example, there is a time for the resurrection of those "In Christ." There is yet another resurrection for the Two Witnesses. There is one for the Beheaded, and one for the Old Testament saints. You lump them all together ignoring other scriptures that show us they are separate. You imagine Jesus' resurrection must be something different because His resurrection does not fit your theory.

You are mistaken on 1 Cor. 15:23, that states that resurrection is for those born again, which agrees with 1 Thes. 4: those "in Christ." Since that does not fit your theory, you have to have all the Old Testament saints "in Christ" when that is impossible.

The second Advent, but its very title is speaking of the SECOND time He will come, but you ignore that He comes the second time ONLY TO THE AIR. Since that don't fit your theory, you ad lib his coming all the way to the ground, forcing two comings into one. The truth is, His second coming is only to the air. From there He will take us to the homes he has prepared, EXACTLY as a groom would take his bride in Jesus' day. How amazing then that after that comes a marriage and a marriage supper in heaven. But since what is written (these events take place in heaven) does not fit your theory, you either ignore them or MOVE them to earth.

Finally, the "first" resurrection is first in HONOR, not in timing. John did not write in English.
Revelation 20:6
King James Version


6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection(born again, God gives the Holy Spirit to God's elects): on such the second death (lake of fire) hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ (Gospel must be preached until all of God's elects receive the mark of the Holy Spirit that God gives), and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Romans 8
New King James Version


Free from Indwelling Sin
8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who[a] do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
True. I take it for what it SAYS. Clear and unambigously.
No you don't! You CERTAINLY don't take Rev. 19 for what it says. You have to MOVE the marriage and supper to a later TIME and a later PLACE.
I have explained the wording so many times, it only demonstrates your unwillingness to open your eyes and ears.

The words in v.7 and 9 clearly show what's about to happen. Preparation, not the actual wedding supper.
 
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Perhaps you did not understand Jesus' point in bringing up Noah: it was ONLY to point out the suddeness of their destrcution: living life to the fullest (eating, drinking marrying...) right up to the day they died.

Of course you can use Noah and Lot as types, but that was not Jesus' intent.
If that was not Jesus' intent, those who do use Noah and Lot as "types", then they are just speculating. That's all.

I do agree with your point about why Jesus mentioned Noah; ONLY to pont out the suddenness of their destruction.

Anything beyond that is just sheer speculation.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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SAY WHAT?????

Please quote a verse that says what you claim.


It is clear that you aren't reading ANY translation.
Correct
Lot is a pretrib rapture model.
No " going through and protected"
As you have confirmed.

Thanks for pointing that out.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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If that was not Jesus' intent, those who do use Noah and Lot as "types", then they are just speculating. That's all.

I do agree with your point about why Jesus mentioned Noah; ONLY to pont out the suddenness of their destruction.

Anything beyond that is just sheer speculation.
"""If that was not Jesus' intent, those who do use Noah and Lot as "types", then they are just speculating. That's all."""
Jesus declared them as types.
Re read it.
That is Jesus using them both as types.
Pre judgement types that you say Jesus was speculating.

Some postrib teacher erroneously taught you that.