Jesus did not die for all mankind

[Forest]

If you had something decent.


Because I was hit upside the head with a bible as an Arminian, and submitted to what was revealed to me. Thus far no one has been able to adequately handle the issue.




No one can change their mind in the strictest of terms. You can't change the future, can you?

God did not predestinate our every action, thats called "absolutism" which is a false doctrine.

 

[Forest]

Have you ever read John 3:16?
John 3:15-17
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Read the Post right above yours posted by "gracebetoyou" and he explains the meaning of the word " World" in those verses.

 

[Forest]

If God selected the ones to be saved from the beginning he is evil, because he then created humans who was doomed from the beginning.
Wy would he do that?

I am not capable of explaining why God does things. Why would God order the army of Israel to kill all men, women, children and every living thing? Why would God cause the son of David and Bathsheba to die for punishment to David? Why would God have thousands to be killed to punish David for numbering Israel?

 

[Forest]

1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

You need to see (1Jn 2:2) broke down as to the meaning of certain words that are being modified by other words such as an adjective modifying a noun. The two words 'whole world' are 'holos kosmos' and are the same in (1Jn 5:9 - whole world lieth in wickedness and in Rev 12:9 - Satan which deceiveth the whole world). These two words mean, holos - all, altogether, complete and kosmos - inhabitants of the world (earth), men, the human race (Thayer #5). The adjective holos modifies the noun kosmos and is translated - 'all men of the human race that have inhabited the world or earth'. The believer is asserted in the first part of that verse with, 'our sins' and 'not ours only'. So this verse concerning Christ being the propitiation for sin covers the sins of the believer and also the sins of the entire human race that makes up the 'whole world'. This verse can not be interpreted or understood in any other manner than as it is written for both the believer (who was called out of the world Jn 15:19) and the unbeliever (who is of the world ).

Jn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Jn 4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard [him] ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

Matt 24:24 says it is not possiable to deceive the elect.

 

[Forest]

Have you checked out what the word "whosoever" means?

John 3:16, It does not say "whosoever WILL believe"(future tense), it says "whosoever believeth"(present tense). The world in this verse means pertaining to believers only.

 

[Forest]

wow the great extremes you al will go to amazes me.

you mean the same word "Kosmos" which John used in John 1
0 He was in the world, and the world (Kosmos) was made through Him, and the world (kosmos) did not know Him. 11 He came to His own,[c] and His own[d] did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

The same people that did not know him, or recieve him. But only those out of the world which recieved him were saved?

The same word in John 7: 7

John 7:7
The world (kosmos) cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it that its works are evil.

Same in John 9:

John 9:39
And Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world (kosmos), that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind.”

And then you quote Thayer? Well lets look at what Thayer has to say!

1. in Grk. writ. fr. Hom, down, an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order.
2. as in Grk. writ. fr. Hom, down, ornament, decoration, adornment:
3. the world, i.e. the universe
4. the circle of the earth, the earth
5. the inhabitants of the world:
6. the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
7. worldly affairs; the aggregate of things earthly; the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments, riches, advantages, pleasures, etc., which, although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ:
8. any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort


Thayer, J. H. (1889). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: Being Grimm's Wilke's Clavis Novi Testamenti (357). New York: Harper & Brothers.

Funny how out of ALL 8 Defenitions. NOT ONE has what you said he said. why is that??

Now, did I say that the word "world" meant pertaining to believers only for every where in the bible that uses the word "world". I gave you the specific verses that it meant "used for believers only".

 

[Forest]

what does those verses have to do with your point?

Daniel 4
34 And at the end of the time I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my understanding returned to me; and I blessed the Most High and praised and honored Him who lives forever:

For His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
And His kingdom is from generation to generation.
35 All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing;
He does according to His will in the army of heaven
And among the inhabitants of the earth.
No one can restrain His hand
Or say to Him, “What have You done?”

36 At the same time my reason returned to me, and for the glory of my kingdom, my honor and splendor returned to me. My counselors and nobles resorted to me, I was restored to my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added to me. 37 Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and extol and honor the King of heaven, all of whose works are truth, and His ways justice. And those who walk in pride He is able to put down.

after he spent some time as a barn animal... don't see how this has anything to do with election, but ok...

Isa 50: 2
2 Why, when I came, was there no man?
Why, when I called, was there none to answer?
Is My hand shortened at all that it cannot redeem?
Or have I no power to deliver?
Indeed with My rebuke I dry up the sea,
I make the rivers a wilderness;
Their fish stink because there is no water,
And die of thirst.


yeah that doesn't make much sense either.... hmmm...

You say that neither one of those verses make much sense to you, and I can understand why, because you want to stick with your belief that God wants all mankind to be saved. These two verses contradict the idea that God wants all mankind to be saved. They imply that if he wants to save all mankind then he has the power and will to save all mankind, but we know that all mankind will not be saved.

 

[Laodicea]

Now, did I say that the word "world" meant pertaining to believers only for every where in the bible that uses the word "world". I gave you the specific verses that it meant "used for believers only".

Romans 5:8
(8) But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Matthew 9:13
(13) But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

 

[tribesman]

Election and predestination is spoken of by Paul in Romans as warrants that salvation really be by sole grace. Not works, not merit, not some condition or quality in the sinner. We are not supposed to understand everything related to these issues by reason or logic, but we are to know that they be.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Matt 24:24 says it is not possiable to deceive the elect.

What does this have to do with anything? It does not prove your point.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Now, did I say that the word "world" meant pertaining to believers only for every where in the bible that uses the word "world". I gave you the specific verses that it meant "used for believers only".

No you gave us YOUR interpretation. And you quoted Thayer, And I proved your wrong by showing in NO INTEREPRETATION of the word is it used for believers only using Thayers interpretation of the word.

And you still want to argue?

 

[AnandaHya]

You say that neither one of those verses make much sense to you, and I can understand why, because you want to stick with your belief that God wants all mankind to be saved. These two verses contradict the idea that God wants all mankind to be saved. They imply that if he wants to save all mankind then he has the power and will to save all mankind, but we know that all mankind will not be saved.

your argument doesn't hold weight.

Have you ever tried potty training a child?

God is not a tyrant or ruthless dictator. He would that we all learn certain things and seek Him and His will but He does not force His will upon us anymore then a good parent forces their wishes and desires upon their children. He teaches the things we need to know, sets boundaries, enforces His rules and laws and then allows us to grow into the person we are meant to be.

However sometimes we fight with our siblings. as children we are corrected and taught how to get along, but there is a point when the same event will have two majorly different consequences.

If a 8 year old got hold of a gun and accidently killed a person, what would happen?

What if the person was not 8 but 28 years old?

what if the person who was killed with their last dying breathe asked their loved ones to forgive the other person, would that make a difference?

 

[AnandaHya]

Election and predestination is spoken of by Paul in Romans as warrants that salvation really be by sole grace. Not works, not merit, not some condition or quality in the sinner. We are not supposed to understand everything related to these issues by reason or logic, but we are to know that they be.

that doesn't change the fact that Jesus died for the WHOLE world.

It is God's right to choose whom He wants to rule over His people as judges, kings and priests. That is election and predestination.

However if you don't get elected to public service does the make you less a citizen of the Kingdom?

If you are told to be the royal toilet cleaner, would you be offended? would you do your job joyfully or resentfully?

Matthew 24:48-51
New King James Version (NKJV)
48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ [a] 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, 51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth

The servant was called and entrusted with care of the Master's goods and people, but had his name blotted out from the Book of Life because of his wickedness.

what is the meaning of Apostasy?

 

[Red33]

Matt 24:24 says it is not possiable to deceive the elect.

You mentioned that (1Jn 2:2) pertained to believers only, when in fact that verse distinctly testifies that Christ is the propitiation for not only our sins but also for the sins of the whole world. Christ shed His blood and became the mercy seat for the sins of all men, for all have sinned, all have gone astray and all have come short of the glory of God (Rom 3:23). Our Savior shed His blood for the sins of all men but only those that believe upon Him and His name receive His salvation and the benefits of His death, burial and resurrection.

When the writers used the pronoun 'ours' , it spoke to those that had received the benefits of salvation by grace through faith. Those who had not received and were still in unbelief could not make those claims that could only come by promise through faith in the name of the Son of God. The call of salvation has gone out into all the world to all men and 'whosoever' the gospel is preached and if they receive and believe it, they shall be saved and never perish having everlasting life. Are those that have been saved through God's mercy and grace more deserving of God's great salvation because they were called as God's elect?

As sinners under the condemnation and wrath of God (Jn 5:24, Rom 5:16-18, 8:1, Jn 3:36), we were called and drawn unto Christ through the gospel and this was done through the mercy and grace of God by the Holy Spirit. Christ is the only one that was predestinated by the Father and we are called, chosen and predestinated in Him as God's election of grace when we believe. Our predestination is inherited from Christ and not part of some separate calling or election. Our justification in Christ came by grace through faith in the blood of Christ and not by election or predestination. If Christ did not die and shed His blood for all men, then you can have no assurance or confidence that you have been justified, forgiven and cleansed from all sin, or even any family member or neighbor that believes. Either Christ died for the sins of all men or He died for none and if He died for some, it would make the gospel of His death, burial and resurrection of none effect with no need to preach the gospel to every creature (Mk 16:15).

 

[tribesman]

that doesn't change the fact that Jesus died for the WHOLE world...

And still the WHOLE world is not saved. Don't you think there is a difference as to how God deals with His covenant people as to those who are not in His covenant?

It is God's right to choose whom He wants to rule over His people as judges, kings and priests. That is election and predestination.

Election and predestination deals primarily with whom God in His prerogative bestows His grace, has mercy, upon. See Romans 8 and 9.

Rom.9

[15] For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
[16] So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
[17] For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
[18] Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
[19] Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
[20] Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
[21] Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
[22] What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
[23] And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

 

[AnandaHya]

And still the WHOLE world is not saved. Don't you think there is a difference as to how God deals with His covenant people as to those who are not in His covenant?

yes and He still punishes those who break His covenant and they are cast into darkness.

Matthew 25
24 “Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’
26 “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.
29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

Matthew 3
8 Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, 9 and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. 10 And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Election and predestination deals primarily with whom God in His prerogative bestows His grace, has mercy, upon. See Romans 8 and 9.

yes lets examine the life of Esau and Ishmael?

Genesis 33:9
But Esau said, “I have enough, my brother; keep what you have for yourself.”

Genesis 17:20
And as for Ishmael, I have heard you. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall beget twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation.

what did either lack while they lived in this world?

For some happiness in this world is all they desire.

Even God's "hate" is more merciful then worldly people's "love"

 

[tribesman]

yes and He still punishes those who break His covenant and they are cast into darkness. Matthew 25:24-30 ... Matt.3:8

Has anyone here denied that?

yes lets examine the life of Esau and Ishmael?

Genesis 33:9
But Esau said, “I have enough, my brother; keep what you have for yourself.”

Genesis 17:20
And as for Ishmael, I have heard you. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall beget twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation.

what did either lack while they lived in this world?

For some happiness in this world is all they desire.

Even God's "hate" is more merciful then worldly people's "love"

Yes? Anyone here questioned this?

But election and predestination goes beyond timely matters, obviously.

 

[AnandaHya]

But election and predestination goes beyond timely matters, obviously.

lol if it was obvious we wouldn't be having this discussion.

no Tribesman for some it is still a parable,

would you like to clarify how election and predestination goes beyond timely matters?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But election and predestination goes beyond timely matters, obviously.

Your right. It is based on Gods omniscience of knowing all that will take place. Thus it is beyond time.

 

[tribesman]

...would you like to clarify how election and predestination goes beyond timely matters?

Hehe. Not too much really, as I believe these are things indeed relating to eternity, about which we know not much at this side of same. I believe these issues is not for us to know all about. But what we can know about them is they are a reality.. I don't hence toss in any "interpretations" on Romans 8 and 9 that would appeal to logic or reason, I rather let these scriptures speak for themselves. My personal position on the matter is single predestination. As said, I believe that there is a difference as how to God deals with His people in contrast to those who are not His people.

The Bondage of the Will <- link