"Jesus died for everybody's sins"

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tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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Check how close you are to historic Christianity before making your call. I base all on the historic creed's understanding of Scripture.
I believe in the Apostles Creed aka Nicene Creed and believe it is a spiritually sound affirmation in regards to the divinity of Christ, the Holy Trinity, and eternal salvation. Nothing wrong about us in this regards Dave. Please disregard the throwing you on under the bus crack but you would have to admit that it was somewhat amusing. :)
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Ah, I see your point. For these people that never hear the gospel, general revelation is enough. I agree that they are without excuse and deserve hell. I also say to 0.00000% of them have a chance to be saved as no one seeks God.
Even people who have heard will suffer with no excuse. That is what Paul was saying
Premise 1: God determines whether or not people will hear the gospel
Premise 2: Many people never hear the gospel
Premise 3: What ever God sets out to do will occur ... Isaiah 46:10 ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose’,
Conclusion: God determined certain people will not hear the gospel. Thus God did not die for everyone.
Again, A false premis and conclusion
 
Jan 17, 2020
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I believe in the Apostles Creed aka Nicene Creed and believe it is a spiritually sound affirmation in regards to the divinity of Christ, the Holy Trinity, and eternal salvation. Nothing wrong about us in this regards Dave. Please disregard the throwing you on under the bus crack but you would have to admit that it was somewhat amusing. :)
You'll find my position on free will comes from the Council of Ephesus 431. As does Amillennialism. From there I follow more modern creeds that embrace those understandings. And build on them as in the Westminster confession's take on predestination.
 
May 22, 2020
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everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Agreed. This verse supports my contention. It says everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life. Since not everyone sees the son (hears about the Son) and since God knows this ... therefore, God did not did for everyone.
"Beholding the Son" equals believing in Him here. Jesus meant beholding with the eyes of faith. Tom Constable


John 3: 16 For God so loved the world. he gave his only begotten son, that WHOEVER believed in him will not perish but has everlasting life.
The word WORLD is ambiguous. One should define doctrine based on verses that are explicit; not implicit and thus bent by personal bias.
World could mean the planet.
World could mean the elect
World could mean Gentiles
World could mean non-elect I.E. John 15:19 If you were of the world, it would love you as its own. Instead, the world hates you, because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world.
replacing world in this verse with everyone you have:
John 15:19 If you were of the everyone, everyone would love you as its own. Instead, the everyone hates you, because you are not of the everyone, but I have chosen you out of the everyone.

Examples where it is clear WORLD does not need everyone:
“Shew Thyself to the world” (John 7:4), did they mean “shew Thyself to all mankind”? When the Pharisees said, “Behold, the world is gone after Him” (John 12:19), did they mean that “all the human family” were flocking after Him? When the apostle wrote, “Your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world” (Romans 1:8), did he mean that the faith of the saints at Rome was the subject of conversation by every man, woman, and child on the earth? When Revelation 13:3 informs us that “all the world wondered after the beast”, are we to understand that there will be no exceptions? What of the godly Jewish Remnant, who will be slain (Revelation 20:4) rather than submit?
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Agreed. This verse supports my contention. It says everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life. Since not everyone sees the son (hears about the Son) and since God knows this ... therefore, God did not did for everyone.
"Beholding the Son" equals believing in Him here. Jesus meant beholding with the eyes of faith. Tom Constable
Actually it would support both of our positions. Thus by itself. does not prove anything.

The word WORLD is ambiguous. One should define doctrine based on verses that are explicit; not implicit and thus bent by personal bias.
World could mean the planet.
World could mean the elect
World could mean Gentiles
World could mean non-elect I.E. John 15:19 If you were of the world, it would love you as its own. Instead, the world hates you, because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world.
replacing world in this verse with everyone you have:
John 15:19 If you were of the everyone, everyone would love you as its own. Instead, the everyone hates you, because you are not of the everyone, but I have chosen you out of the everyone.

Examples where it is clear WORLD does not need everyone:
“Shew Thyself to the world” (John 7:4), did they mean “shew Thyself to all mankind”? When the Pharisees said, “Behold, the world is gone after Him” (John 12:19), did they mean that “all the human family” were flocking after Him? When the apostle wrote, “Your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world” (Romans 1:8), did he mean that the faith of the saints at Rome was the subject of conversation by every man, woman, and child on the earth? When Revelation 13:3 informs us that “all the world wondered after the beast”, are we to understand that there will be no exceptions? What of the godly Jewish Remnant, who will be slain (Revelation 20:4) rather than submit?
lol.. You trying to push fatalism on my my friend?

God loved the world.

He did not force people to reject him and never give the an opportunity to be saved

if he did, what he said in romans 1 (they have no excuse) would be a lie because they would have an excuse He never even allowed them the opportunity to be saved, So he cannot judge them for unbelief.
 
May 22, 2020
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Again, A false premis and conclusion
Possibly, but your statement lacks foundation. Your lack of evidence to support your statement tends to lend credence to my statements.
It is a circular argument ... i.e. My statement is wrong because you say it's wrong
 

Runningman

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2020
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@eternally-gratefull @Runningman


Premise 1: Faith cometh by hearing ... Romans 10:17
Premise 2: Faith is necessary for Salvation John 3:16
Premise 3: Not everyone hears the Gospel ... empirical evidence affirms this premise
Premise 4: What ever God sets out to do will occur ... Isaiah 46:10 ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose’,
Conclusion: God did not die for everyone

How do you solve this issue?
I don't see the issue. The Bible doesn't say everyone will hear the gospel or that everyone will be saved. The Bible does say that God died for everyone. If that weren't the case it would be impossible to know if you are even eligible for salvation or if Christianity even applies to you. Does Christianity apply to you?
 
May 22, 2020
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He gave his son to the world. Even John the baptist said behold. the lamb of God who takes the sin of the world.

He does not force the world to take his gift though..
According to your interpretation of "the lamb of God who takes the sin of the world" where WORLD means everyone ... everyone's sin has been taken away. This is universalism. Though I don't believe in universalism ... I hope I am wrong.

Premise 1: God has taken away the sin of everyone (I don't agree, but this is your premise of the verse you quoted)
Premise 2: God is just and does not punish the guiltless/sinless
Conclusion: We are all saved
If this be true, I agree ... God died for everyone. I hope you are right, I think you are not.


He who does not believe is condemned already
Where does it say they were condemned because of sin
Implicitly, I assume you are stating that man is not condemned due to sin except the sin of unbelief (all the rest being taken away). I won't spend much effort proving this ...
The Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:3-17) were part of the Old Covenant or Law, which was also called “the ministry of death” or “ministry of condemnation” (2 Corinthians 3:7-9).
 
May 22, 2020
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The Bible does say that God died for everyone.
That is the focus of the debate at hand. Agreed, The Bible does say that God died for everyone. The question is whether "everyone" (the Bible uses the word ALL or WORLD also) is ambiguous. I responded to the meaning of WORLD in post #204. As for ALL and EVERYONE ... here goes (where EVERYONE is analogous to ALL)

Philosophical Distinction
...An error occurs when there is confusion about whether we refer to a term in a collective sense, or a distributive sense. A collective sense means all the items are considered together as a whole. In a distributive sense, all the items are considered separately, one at a time. The tricky thing is that the word "all" can be used either way. When "all" is used collectively, it means "all together". When "all" is used distributivity, it means "each and every one." The difference is really important and can often be distinguished only from context.
.. Example... Jill says, "All motorcycles have two wheels. " Greg responds, "That's ridiculous. A single motorcycle has two wheels. And there are of 200,000,000 motorcycles in the world. Therefore, all motorcycles would have over 400,000,000 wheels. Thus the word ALL is ambiguous and often construed by one's bias.
Biblical Examples
That the word “all” is used in a relative and restricted sense, and in such case means all without distinction and not all without exception, is clear from a number of Scriptures, from which two or three samples follow: “And there went out unto him all the land of Judea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins” (Mark 1:5). Does this mean that every man, woman and child from “all the land of Judea and they of Jerusalem” were baptized of John in Jordan? Surely not. Luke 3:21 distinctly says, “ Now when all the people were baptized, Jesus was also baptized,” Then what does “all the people were baptized” mean? It does not mean all without exception, but all without distinction, that is, all classes and conditions of men. Again we read, “And early in the morning He came again into the Temple, and all the people came unto Him; and He sat down, and taught them” (John 8:2); are we to understand this expression absolutely or relatively? Does “all the people” mean all without exception or all without distinction, that is, all classes and conditions of people? Manifestly the latter; for the Temple was not able to accommodate everybody that was in Jerusalem at this time, namely, the Feast of Tabernacles.

If that weren't the case it would be impossible to know if you are even eligible for salvation or if Christianity even applies to you.
The word ELIGIBLE means having the right to do or obtain something; satisfying the appropriate conditions. Your statement assumes we have to meet conditions to be saved. Though many believe this, many believe God chooses who He will save and only those He chooses independant of human input. They believe NO ONE SEEKS GOOD and therefore being ELIGIBLE has no practical application. (But this is another can of worms)
 
Mar 14, 2011
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According to your interpretation of "the lamb of God who takes the sin of the world" where WORLD means everyone ... everyone's sin has been taken away. This is universalism. Though I don't believe in universalism ... I hope I am wrong.
No it does not. and I would beg of you to stop trying to put words in my mouth.

Premise 1: God has taken away the sin of everyone (I don't agree, but this is your premise of the verse you quoted)
Premise 2: God is just and does not punish the guiltless/sinless
Conclusion: We are all saved
If this be true, I agree ... God died for everyone. I hope you are right, I think you are not.
Again this is not true
Premise 1. Jesus paid for the sin of the whole world
Premise 2. Because of this, the whole world has the ABILITY to be saved,
Premise 3. Only those who come to christ in faith are saved.

Conclusion

for God so loved the world (all mankind) that he offered his son, as a living sacrifice to the whole world, as an offer of salvation to all, in order that whoever believes in him will never die.


Implicitly, I assume you are stating that man is not condemned due to sin except the sin of unbelief (all the rest being taken away). I won't spend much effort proving this ...
The Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:3-17) were part of the Old Covenant or Law, which was also called “the ministry of death” or “ministry of condemnation” (2 Corinthians 3:7-9).
Yes, And as John said, The lamb of God, who takes the sin of the world..

The high priest on the day of atonment gave the sacrifice for ALL PEOPLE..

In the same token, Jesus offered himself once for ALL. that whoever believes is saved.


again, double predestination as found in fatalism is not found in scripture
 

1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
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I don't understand the question.
If he didn't die for everyone ( to give everyone a chance), then could you possibly be one that he did not die for and thus have no chance? How could you know if you were one of the select few if he did not die for the sins of the whole world to give anyone who would choose to believe in him a chance? Could you possible choose to believe and yet he would still cast you off because you are not one of the one's he died for?
 
May 22, 2020
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No it does not. and I would beg of you to stop trying to put words in my mouth.
Apologies
How do you interpret your quote: "the lamb of God who takes the sin of the world" ?
What sins? Every single sin? Some exceptions?
What does WORLD mean? Everyone without exception as in John 3:16?
Asside: I assume you believe LAMB OF GOD is CHRIST

again, double predestination as found in fatalism is not found in scripture
Ah, now you are putting words in my mouth

I addressed "ALL" and "EVERYONE" and "WORLD" in previous posts. I explained their meaning is questionable and gave examples.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Apologies
How do you interpret your quote: "the lamb of God who takes the sin of the world" ?
What sins? Every single sin? Some exceptions?
Jesus gave us this answer himself.. All manner of sin shal be forgive men. But..


What does WORLD mean? Everyone without exception as in John 3:16?
World Cosmos, the earth as a sphere. or the population of the world. or the world who are entrapped in satans system. the second and third would fit. Because at one timie, we all were under satan's system. as non believers.
Asside: I assume you believe LAMB OF GOD is CHRIST
Well after John said it, He baptised christ the one he called the lamb of God who he was not worthy of.. WHo would baptise wiht the HS and fire.


Ah, now you are putting words in my mouth

I addressed "ALL" and "EVERYONE" and "WORLD" in previous posts. I explained their meaning is questionable and gave examples.
if I am wrong forgive me, but then why do you think Jesus only died for a select group of people sin and not everyone's sin
 
May 22, 2020
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If he didn't die for everyone ( to give everyone a chance), then could you possibly be one that he did not die for and thus have no chance?
YES
1 Cor. 1:27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things--and the things that are not--to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him.

How could you know if you were one of the select few if he did not die for the sins of the whole world to give anyone who would choose to believe in him a chance?
The question seems a little awkward. I think you are assuming that people can choose to believe on their own and God rejects them because they were not chosen by God even though their faith was legit.
... anyways
.... Due to man's depravity, NO ONE CHOOSES to belief (have faith) that was not chosen by God. Believe/faith is a gift God plants into a person He choses. It is part of the regeneration process. Short story: Regeneration precedes Faith logically (Granted, most think the order is the other way around)
.... How do I know I am know of select few ... Short answer: I believe, I obey (imperfectly), I love fellow christians (THis is assurance of salvation... I could natter on and give verses)


Could you possible choose to believe and yet he would still cast you off because you are not one of the one's he died for?
No .. repeating 2nd answer ...
Due to man's depravity, NO ONE CHOOSES to belief (have faith) that was not chosen by God. Believe/faith is a gift God plants into a person He choses. It is part of the regeneration process. Short story: Regeneration precedes Faith logically (Granted, most think the order is the other way around)

Aside: Much of one's doctrine is determined by the question at hand .... Did God die for everyone
then why do you think Jesus only died for a select group of people sin and not everyone's sin
 
May 22, 2020
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then why do you think Jesus only died for a select group of people sin and not everyone's sin
Well, I am able IMO to refute the your sides argument that significantly relies on verses like John 3:16 that uses words like WORLD, ALL and EVERYONE to show God died for everyone. I admit such verses hold the possibility that your side is correct. WORLD, ALL and EVERYONE could also means something else. (I gave examples and explanations in previous posts. I can point them out if requested)

Why I think God did not die for everything without exception.
1) Depravity of man ... No one seeks God ... 1 Cor. 2:14 he is not able to understand ... slave to sin ... etc. ... thus NO ONE WANTS TO BE SAVED
2) Faith cometh by hearing... since not everyone hears God give those people no chance to have faith. Doesn't make sense to die for no purpose.
3) Bible says faith is from God (Eph. 2:7-8 ... as God has apportioned to each a degree of faith... your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men (human philosophy), but in the power of God. ... no one can [really] say, Jesus is [my] Lord, except by and under the power and influence of the Holy Spirit. ... saved through faith. And this [referring to salvation through faith] is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, etc.
4) We are chosen by will of God. John 1:12-13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh [the flesh is carnal and flesh always lusteth against the Spirit], nor of the will of man, but of GOD. ... and anyone to whom the Son deliberately wills to make Him known. ... “A man can receive nothing [he can claim nothing at all] unless it has been granted to him from heaven ... 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. ...
5) The analogies speak of something man cannot do himself so God has to chose and all God chooses is not everyone or everyone would be saved. Analogous words: born again, adopted, spiritually dead, born from above ... all words dependent on another
6) Conflicts with the attributes of God
  • God not FREE to chose for Himself who will be saved
  • It makes God's knowledge dependent on man's decision thus man controls God to the degree man is allowed to determine things uninfluenced by God
  • God is not glorified by that part of salvation that is determined by man. God does not share his glory
  • If God's knowledge of his creatures were derived from the creatures by the impression of anything upon him, as there is upon us, he could not know from eternity, because from eternity there was no actual existence of anything but himself.
  • If He were obligated to be merciful, then it would be justice, not mercy; it would be what He must do if He is righteous.
  • I could go on
7) Saving grace can in no way be meritorious. Giving everyone without exception a chance to be saved dependent on the individual requires merit ... requires work (where work is defined a the mental or physical process one does to accomplish a purpose); in this case work is accessing the gospel and determining it truthfulness in order to accomplish the purpose of salvation.
8) Jesus died for in vain for everyone He knows will NOT believe. I can't imagine God being unsuccessful at anything.

I could go on
 
Apr 21, 2020
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Either:

1. Jesus' sacrifice covers the sins of all mankind, even unbelievers. BUT you will not be judged only if you follow Christ, i.e. unbelievers will only be judged on their sin of not following Christ, and not on any other sin.

2. Jesus' sacrifice only covers the sins of the people who follow him, and does NOT cover any of the sins of unbelievers.

Which is it?
 
Apr 2, 2020
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The inherent assumption in this sort of discussion is that the atonement is a 1:1 thing, i.e. that provision is being made for sins on a by-sin basis. This doesn't seem to fit with the actual picture of atonement, which is not so much that Jesus personally had in mind each and every sinner He died for but that His death overcame the penalty of sin. Inherent to the question is whether Jesus absolves our guilt, or if His death was to cleanse the vessel. It seems to me the atonement is not about individual salvation but instead defeat of the powers of darkness, and as such it is defeated for all but through a combination of repentance and personal amends it can be aquired leaving those who do not desire it incapable of receiving. The whole question is built on a faulty assumption about what atonement is.
 
May 21, 2020
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Hebrews says the blood of bulls and goats never took away sin

Can you explain this?
To be totally honest, I'm not sure despite the amount of research I've done on the topic.
However, there are some ideas.

Of course there is the Catholic Theory that Jesus went down to hell and brought the peoples of the old testament up, however I've found no proof of that in the Bible, and unless Jesus tells me so, it's gonna stay just a theory.

Something I personally use it the Covenant of The Pieces
In the Covenant of the Pieces in Genesis 15, Abraham is supposed to promise obedience and to walk before God in exchange for people and land. In order to solidify this pact, he (Abraham) has to walk through the two halves of the animals. Instead, he essentially passes out, and God passes through instead, taking on his half of the pact, knowing full well humans cannot accomplish this. I believe that this may tie in to the same idea. Since God took on Abraham's half, He knew we wouldn't be able to atone for our sins. Maybe that had something to do with it?

The old testament was a shadow of the new covenant, and the sacrifices were a mere reminder of sins.

Acts 4:12 also states “There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved,”

Again, I've listened to lectures and done what I can, but this is the best I can come up with. I suppose I'll just have to ask God when I get to heaven.
 
May 21, 2020
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Either:

1. Jesus' sacrifice covers the sins of all mankind, even unbelievers. BUT you will not be judged only if you follow Christ, i.e. unbelievers will only be judged on their sin of not following Christ, and not on any other sin.

2. Jesus' sacrifice only covers the sins of the people who follow him, and does NOT cover any of the sins of unbelievers.

Which is it?
Heaven can only be achieved through Jesus!!! Here are some verses that say that:
Acts 4:12: “There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved,”
John 14:6: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me”
John 8:24: “For unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins”