Jesus in old testament

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Adam4Eve

Active member
Nov 26, 2018
179
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28
#1
It is often said that God in human form (Jesus) appeared in the old testament.

Examples:

Prior to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Meeting up a mountain.

The assertion that people were meeting Jesus in these cases is just that, an assertion, and the Bible doesn't actually say this.
It is asserted by people to overcome the contradiction that would arise by virtue of something the Bible goes on to state later: that people cannot see the face of God and survive.

A question about this.

The people interacting with God/Jesus in those times accepted God for being God, or Jesus for being God incarnate, when He appeared to people in the OT.

The Jews later did not accept Jesus as being God incarnate.
Why?

I'm NOT asking why the Jews didn't accept Jesus, but specifically why people way back in the old testament did but then the Jews didn't.

Was there a difference with how God appeared that immediately convinced people in earlier times (i.e. it wasn't Jesus)?

Were more modern Jews (in Jesus' time) less able to discern fact from fiction than Jews way back in the old testament?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
8,328
2,284
113
#2
The assertion that people were meeting Jesus in these cases is just that, an assertion, and the Bible doesn't actually say this.
What makes you think it is just an assertion? The OT clearly shows that it Jesus who met with men. One of the best examples is Moses at the burning bush.

EXODUS 3
1 Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb.
2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
[NOTE: The Angel of the LORD is the pre-incarnate Christ]
3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God...
13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.


So here God identifies Himself as "I AM", Now when we turn to the New Testament, Jesus plainly told the Jews that He was "I AM". Could it get any plainer than that?

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM [he], ye shall die in your sins. (John 8:24) As you can see, "he" is in italics and bracketed to indicate that it was inserted by the translators. I have capitalized "I AM" since that is what Jesus was saying. Why the translators did not capitalize here when they capitalized in Exodus is still a mystery.

To further clear away any doubts, Jesus went on to say (verse 58) that He is the "I AM"
who existed long before Abraham.
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.


Jesus further enforced this by saying "I am the Light of the Word", "I am the Good Shepherd", "I am the Door", "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life", etc.

And then in Revelation He said these very significant words: I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:... Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell [Hades] and of death.
And God the Father said the very same thing about Himself in Revelation: I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
4,724
1,614
113
#3
The assertion that people were meeting Jesus in these cases is just that, an assertion, and the Bible doesn't actually say this.
1 Corinthians 10: KJV
1 "Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; {2} And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; {3} And did all eat the same spiritual meat; {4} And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ."

So who was followed the Exodus Hebrews out of the land of Egypt to the promised land in the OT? Who was the Rock? It was Christ... So Jesus followed the Jews through the wilderness for all those years.. Why is this so? Because Jesus and God are One..
 

Adam4Eve

Active member
Nov 26, 2018
179
41
28
#4
Thanks for the replies so far.

Again, it doesn't actually say it was Jesus.
It could have been Gabriel, reading all of the above posts.
You're not giving me evidence, just your own interpretation.

Anyway, why do you think earlier people were able to come to the conclusion that they were speaking with God whereas Jews at the time of Jesus were not?
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
2,535
705
113
#5
Thanks for the replies so far.

Again, it doesn't actually say it was Jesus.
It could have been Gabriel, reading all of the above posts.
You're not giving me evidence, just your own interpretation.

Anyway, why do you think earlier people were able to come to the conclusion that they were speaking with God whereas Jews at the time of Jesus were not?
Isaiah 44:6 -Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Revelation 1:17- And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
2,575
999
113
#6
Because a prophet is without honor in their own country?
Their eyes were blinded and their ears full of wax.
They were a stubborn and gainsaying people.
They did not have faith.
The jews in Jesus day, some believed, although many didnt, so the gentiles could come in.
It is said his own received him not. JEsus himself said if they did not believe moses, even if someone came back from the dead they would not believe.
The gospel was hidden to those who are lost.

Those are just a few scriptural reasons I can recall as to why many of the jews of Jesus time did not accept Jesus as their messiah. Were they less able to discern fact from fiction. Well it wasnt that so much it had always kind of been that way from the beginning that even when things happened right in front of them Israel was slow to believe. With the jews specifically it was traditions that prevented them from seeing Jesus as God incarnate. As you might recall Jesus healed on the sabbath day, did miracles, yet got told off by the Pharisees for 'working' on the Sabbath.

They were trying to keep the letter of the law so perfectly that they missed the spirit. They were in unbelief.
Prior to his incarnation on earth, God would be acting in various ways, as for Jesus appearing as the angel of the Lord not so sure but everything God did prior to Jesus appearance was a foreshadowing of Christ.

I can imagine even now it would be uncomfortable for the jews to have God with them in human form since many are just so used to having their God way out there in the distance....but God has always been close. What caused this estrangement of Father and son, maybe it was just simple unbelief . You might notice that the prodigal son left and went away but returned to his father, yet his elder son stayed at home and was resentful. The jews are like this elder son. Couldnt believe that God would love and forgive the younger prodigal son even when he was naughty.
 

FlyingDove

Senior Member
Dec 27, 2017
661
202
43
#7
It is often said that God in human form (Jesus) appeared in the old testament.

Examples:

Prior to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Meeting up a mountain.

The assertion that people were meeting Jesus in these cases is just that, an assertion, and the Bible doesn't actually say this.
It is asserted by people to overcome the contradiction that would arise by virtue of something the Bible goes on to state later: that people cannot see the face of God and survive.

A question about this.

The people interacting with God/Jesus in those times accepted God for being God, or Jesus for being God incarnate, when He appeared to people in the OT.

The Jews later did not accept Jesus as being God incarnate.
Why?

I'm NOT asking why the Jews didn't accept Jesus, but specifically why people way back in the old testament did but then the Jews didn't.

Was there a difference with how God appeared that immediately convinced people in earlier times (i.e. it wasn't Jesus)?

Were more modern Jews (in Jesus' time) less able to discern fact from fiction than Jews way back in the old testament?
Scripture say's: Not any man - No One except the Son can SEE, or has SEEN, the Father.

John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
(NOTE: Only the Son has seen the Father)

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, but the only is at the Father's side, has made him known
(NOTE: Only the Son has seen the Father)

1 Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
(NOTE: Who = The Son ck vs 13, 14, 15 for context: The Son is the only being that can dwell in the Fathers light. A light/brilliance that no man can, or has SEEN)

Isaiah 6:
1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
(NOTE: Isaiah see's the Lord sitting high & mighty on a throne. The train = the Shekinah Glory of the Lord, who clothes Himself with light as with a garment. see Ex 33:22-23).
2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
(NOTE: Above the throne, Isaiah see's Seraphim angels; primary meaning: the burning ones. Each of the Seraphims had 6 wings. Twain = 2 wings; covered their face. The Brightness-GLORY of Jehovah is so great. Even fiery anglelic beings must cover thenselves in God's presents. 2 wings covered their feet & with 2 wings they flew upon God's command hearkening unto the voice of his word. see psalms 103:19-21)

Theophany definition: a visible manifestation to humankind of God.

Genesis 18:1 “And the LORD appeared (visibly/physically) unto him (Abram/Abraham) in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;”
(NOTE: The LORD = God the Son - NOT GOD THE FATHER. "Here a theophany")

Genesis 18:8 And he (Abraham) took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.”
(NOTE: These 3 messengers, one of them the LORD & THEY ATE!)

Genesis 18:13. And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh,
(NOTE: Abraham & Sarah see LORD/Jehovah, God the Son. "Here again a theophany")

Genesis 18:22. And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.
(NOTE: Abraham stands face to face with LORD/Jehovah = God the Son. "Here again a theophany")

Exodus 6:3 Jehovah tells Moses: He appeared to Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob.
(OT Jehovah is the Son, NOT THE FATHER. Its Jehovah the Son who creates heaven & earth. Its Jehovah the Son who later leaves heaven John 6:33 & John 16:28. Completes the work of redemption & returns to heaven. And sits down next to the Father)

Gen 32:24-30 Jacob see's God face to face & wrestles with Him
(Jacob see & wrestles with the Son the Son, NOT GOD THE FATHER)

Gen 35:9 Jacob see's God. verse 11 11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty:
(Jacob SEES, God Almighty = The Son - a theophany - NOT GOD THE FATHER)

Genesis 48:3 Jacob tells Joseph he SAW God
(No man can see the Father? Jacob SAW God the Son - a theophany)

Judges 6:22 & 23 Gideon SEES the LORD/Jehovah face to face and talks to Him and lives - a theophany.

Judges 13:22 Samson's parents SEE God and live - a theophany

Acts 7:2 confirms, Abraham SEES God and lived - a theophany

Hebrews 7:3 Melchizdedek is: Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God;
(Abraham saw & communed with, God the Son who is: Without father, without mother, without descent, a King & priest. Abraham SEES God "a theophany" in Gen 12:7, 17:1)

Every instance noted above is pre-incarnation. God reveals himself vis a fleshly theophany at Jesus birth.

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
(NOTE: ALL things: Were created by Jesus Christ/God the Son)

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
(NOTE: Christ/Jesus was before all things/No Beginning/From EVERLASTING/Micah 5:5. And still holds everything together)

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
(NOTE: Jesus the beginning/creator, head of the Church, 1st to be resurrected: Is PREEMINENT in ALL things)

Christ is/must be """PREEMINENT""" in ALL things within our realm:

Creation (2 Cor 5:21, Heb 4:15, 1 Jn 3:5, 1 Pet 1:19, 1 Pet 2:22.)

Redemption (Gal 3:13, Eph 1:7, 1 Pet 1:18, 1 Co 6:20, Heb 9:11-12)

Resurrection (Rom 1:4, 6:5, Phil 3:10, 1 Pet 1:3)

Mediation (1 Tim 2:5, Heb 8:6, Heb 9:15, Heb 12:24)

Judgment (Jn 5:22, Jn 5:27, Acts 10:42, 17:31)
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
2,535
705
113
#8
Scripture say's: Not any man - No One except the Son can SEE, or has SEEN, the Father.

John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
(NOTE: Only the Son has seen the Father)

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, but the only is at the Father's side, has made him known
(NOTE: Only the Son has seen the Father)

1 Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
(NOTE: Who = The Son ck vs 13, 14, 15 for context: The Son is the only being that can dwell in the Fathers light. A light/brilliance that no man can, or has SEEN)

Isaiah 6:
1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
(NOTE: Isaiah see's the Lord sitting high & mighty on a throne. The train = the Shekinah Glory of the Lord, who clothes Himself with light as with a garment. see Ex 33:22-23).
2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
(NOTE: Above the throne, Isaiah see's Seraphim angels; primary meaning: the burning ones. Each of the Seraphims had 6 wings. Twain = 2 wings; covered their face. The Brightness-GLORY of Jehovah is so great. Even fiery anglelic beings must cover thenselves in God's presents. 2 wings covered their feet & with 2 wings they flew upon God's command hearkening unto the voice of his word. see psalms 103:19-21)

Theophany definition: a visible manifestation to humankind of God.

Genesis 18:1 “And the LORD appeared (visibly/physically) unto him (Abram/Abraham) in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;”
(NOTE: The LORD = God the Son - NOT GOD THE FATHER. "Here a theophany")

Genesis 18:8 And he (Abraham) took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.”
(NOTE: These 3 messengers, one of them the LORD & THEY ATE!)

Genesis 18:13. And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh,
(NOTE: Abraham & Sarah see LORD/Jehovah, God the Son. "Here again a theophany")

Genesis 18:22. And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.
(NOTE: Abraham stands face to face with LORD/Jehovah = God the Son. "Here again a theophany")

Exodus 6:3 Jehovah tells Moses: He appeared to Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob.
(OT Jehovah is the Son, NOT THE FATHER. Its Jehovah the Son who creates heaven & earth. Its Jehovah the Son who later leaves heaven John 6:33 & John 16:28. Completes the work of redemption & returns to heaven. And sits down next to the Father)

Gen 32:24-30 Jacob see's God face to face & wrestles with Him
(Jacob see & wrestles with the Son the Son, NOT GOD THE FATHER)

Gen 35:9 Jacob see's God. verse 11 11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty:
(Jacob SEES, God Almighty = The Son - a theophany - NOT GOD THE FATHER)

Genesis 48:3 Jacob tells Joseph he SAW God
(No man can see the Father? Jacob SAW God the Son - a theophany)

Judges 6:22 & 23 Gideon SEES the LORD/Jehovah face to face and talks to Him and lives - a theophany.

Judges 13:22 Samson's parents SEE God and live - a theophany

Acts 7:2 confirms, Abraham SEES God and lived - a theophany

Hebrews 7:3 Melchizdedek is: Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God;
(Abraham saw & communed with, God the Son who is: Without father, without mother, without descent, a King & priest. Abraham SEES God "a theophany" in Gen 12:7, 17:1)

Every instance noted above is pre-incarnation. God reveals himself vis a fleshly theophany at Jesus birth.

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
(NOTE: ALL things: Were created by Jesus Christ/God the Son)

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
(NOTE: Christ/Jesus was before all things/No Beginning/From EVERLASTING/Micah 5:5. And still holds everything together)

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
(NOTE: Jesus the beginning/creator, head of the Church, 1st to be resurrected: Is PREEMINENT in ALL things)

Christ is/must be """PREEMINENT""" in ALL things within our realm:

Creation (2 Cor 5:21, Heb 4:15, 1 Jn 3:5, 1 Pet 1:19, 1 Pet 2:22.)

Redemption (Gal 3:13, Eph 1:7, 1 Pet 1:18, 1 Co 6:20, Heb 9:11-12)

Resurrection (Rom 1:4, 6:5, Phil 3:10, 1 Pet 1:3)

Mediation (1 Tim 2:5, Heb 8:6, Heb 9:15, Heb 12:24)

Judgment (Jn 5:22, Jn 5:27, Acts 10:42, 17:31)
Yes. No one has seen the Father except the Son

God always appeared in the OT through the Word, who became flesh and was named Jesus in the incarnation
 
Sep 3, 2018
42
28
18
#9
As others have stated, nobody has seen God the Father other than Jesus. Originally the name that the God of the Israelites gave to Moses appeared in the OT where you see the word "LORD" in all uppper case. Rather than print the name they substituted it with LORD. Moses did see the LORD, but not his face. "Lord", not in all upper case, could be referring to another lord, depends on the context.

Where you see "God of" it's not necessarily in relation to God the Father. Human judges were referred to as Gods for example. It's all too easy to jump to the wrong conclusions and I don't have a 100% understanding at this point. It's concerning that people think the God of the Israelites is Jesus. Both stating "I am" does not mean they are the same beings. They have different roles. In some respects they oppose each other, in others they compliment each other.
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
2,535
705
113
#10
As others have stated, nobody has seen God the Father other than Jesus. Originally the name that the God of the Israelites gave to Moses appeared in the OT where you see the word "LORD" in all uppper case. Rather than print the name they substituted it with LORD. Moses did see the LORD, but not his face. "Lord", not in all upper case, could be referring to another lord, depends on the context.

Where you see "God of" it's not necessarily in relation to God the Father. Human judges were referred to as Gods for example. It's all too easy to jump to the wrong conclusions and I don't have a 100% understanding at this point. It's concerning that people think the God of the Israelites is Jesus. Both stating "I am" does not mean they are the same beings. They have different roles. In some respects they oppose each other, in others they compliment each other.
Three person's, Father, Son, Spirit. One God. And they never oppose each other. I don't think that is the word. Distinct in person, one in essence/nature would be better, I think
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
1,294
149
63
#11
It is often said that God in human form (Jesus) appeared in the old testament.

Examples:

Prior to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Meeting up a mountain.

The assertion that people were meeting Jesus in these cases is just that, an assertion, and the Bible doesn't actually say this.
It is asserted by people to overcome the contradiction that would arise by virtue of something the Bible goes on to state later: that people cannot see the face of God and survive.

A question about this.

The people interacting with God/Jesus in those times accepted God for being God, or Jesus for being God incarnate, when He appeared to people in the OT.

The Jews later did not accept Jesus as being God incarnate.
Why?

I'm NOT asking why the Jews didn't accept Jesus, but specifically why people way back in the old testament did but then the Jews didn't.

Was there a difference with how God appeared that immediately convinced people in earlier times (i.e. it wasn't Jesus)?

Were more modern Jews (in Jesus' time) less able to discern fact from fiction than Jews way back in the old testament?
Actually there are ways to determine facts about an issue like how do we know that Jesus appeared in the OT even though it is not explicitly and clearly stated. There is such a thing as "inductive" reasoning and "deductive" reasoning. Or "implicit" verses and "explicit" verses to arrive at a conclusion.

Explicit refers to that which is "fully and clearly expressed. Implicit, by contrast, refers to that which is "implied or understood though not directly expressed. So for instance regarding your question "How do we know Jesus appeared in the OT? Well, Jesus Himself said that God the Father cannot be seen. John 5:37, John 6:46. The Bible also teaches that at John 1:18, "No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared Him.

Plus the fact that Jesus Christ is the one and only physical manifestion of His Father. So, here is what Genesis 17:1,2 states, "Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, THE LORD APPEARED TO ABRAM AND SAID TO HIM, "I AM GOD ALMIGHTY; Walk before Me, and be blameless. vs2, And I will establish My covenant between Me and you, And I will multiply you exceedingly."

So adam4eve, who appeared to Abram and promised to multiply his seed? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

Adam4Eve

Active member
Nov 26, 2018
179
41
28
#12
Actually there are ways to determine facts about an issue like how do we know that Jesus appeared in the OT even though it is not explicitly and clearly stated. There is such a thing as "inductive" reasoning and "deductive" reasoning. Or "implicit" verses and "explicit" verses to arrive at a conclusion.

Explicit refers to that which is "fully and clearly expressed. Implicit, by contrast, refers to that which is "implied or understood though not directly expressed. So for instance regarding your question "How do we know Jesus appeared in the OT? Well, Jesus Himself said that God the Father cannot be seen. John 5:37, John 6:46. The Bible also teaches that at John 1:18, "No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared Him.

Plus the fact that Jesus Christ is the one and only physical manifestion of His Father. So, here is what Genesis 17:1,2 states, "Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, THE LORD APPEARED TO ABRAM AND SAID TO HIM, "I AM GOD ALMIGHTY; Walk before Me, and be blameless. vs2, And I will establish My covenant between Me and you, And I will multiply you exceedingly."

So adam4eve, who appeared to Abram and promised to multiply his seed? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
You've responded to me by asking me a question, hoping that I'll give you a particular answer.

That doesn't answer my question.
It isn't amazing, so why the 😯 face?
It's circular and rather pathetic, actually.

You know, one of the really frustrating things I'm finding with Christians, and something that is really putting me off, is that I can't get a straight answer to a straight question.
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
2,535
705
113
#13
You've responded to me by asking me a question, hoping that I'll give you a particular answer.

That doesn't answer my question.
It isn't amazing, so why the 😯 face?
It's circular and rather pathetic, actually.

You know, one of the really frustrating things I'm finding with Christians, and something that is really putting me off, is that I can't get a straight answer to a straight question.
What question are you waiting for answer on? You had several and received several answers, so what question are you referring to?
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
1,294
149
63
#14
You've responded to me by asking me a question, hoping that I'll give you a particular answer.

That doesn't answer my question.
It isn't amazing, so why the 😯 face?
It's circular and rather pathetic, actually.

You know, one of the really frustrating things I'm finding with Christians, and something that is really putting me off, is that I can't get a straight answer to a straight question.
Oh I'm sorry, apprently I didn't fully understand your question which is the following?
I'm NOT asking why the Jews didn't accept Jesus, but specifically why people way back in the old testament did but then the Jews didn't.

Was there a difference with how God appeared that immediately convinced people in earlier times (i.e. it wasn't Jesus)?

Were more modern Jews (in Jesus' time) less able to discern fact from fiction than Jews way back in the old testament?"

First of all were talking about what happened in Genesis, Exodus and the next three books of the Tanak. All they knew is that there is one God and nothing about Jesus Christ. God chose to manifest Himself in bits and pieces as well as tell them His plan to redeem mankind later on in history.

And as far as you saying "it wasn't Jesus" I already explained how "WE" came to that conslusion but they did not know it before the fact. And there is no "fiction" as you put it. And since your not a Christian of course you would think it's fiction.

Furthermore, God did appear in different ways to the early Saints. Sometimes it was in a dream, a vision, physically, and through angels. In fact, at Genesis 16:7 the angel of the Lord appeared to Hagar and he told here he wouls multiply her descendants.

At Genesis 16:13 she says, "Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, Thou art a God who sees; for she said, "Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him?" Btw, for your information the angel of the Lord that appeared to her is "NOT" an angel but the preincarnate Jesus Christ. We know that but they did not know it.

And lastly, regarding the Jews during Jesus' day, they simply did not believe Him, just like you don't believe Him. Any other questions?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
2,535
705
113
#15
Oh I'm sorry, apprently I didn't fully understand your question which is the following?
I'm NOT asking why the Jews didn't accept Jesus, but specifically why people way back in the old testament did but then the Jews didn't.

Was there a difference with how God appeared that immediately convinced people in earlier times (i.e. it wasn't Jesus)?

Were more modern Jews (in Jesus' time) less able to discern fact from fiction than Jews way back in the old testament?"

First of all were talking about what happened in Genesis, Exodus and the next three books of the Tanak. All they knew is that there is one God and nothing about Jesus Christ. God chose to manifest Himself in bits and pieces as well as tell them His plan to redeem mankind later on in history.

And as far as you saying "it wasn't Jesus" I already explained how "WE" came to that conslusion but they did not know it before the fact. And there is no "fiction" as you put it. And since your not a Christian of course you would think it's fiction.

Furthermore, God did appear in different ways to the early Saints. Sometimes it was in a dream, a vision, physically, and through angels. In fact, at Genesis 16:7 the angel of the Lord appeared to Hagar and he told here he wouls multiply her descendants.

At Genesis 16:13 she says, "Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, Thou art a God who sees; for she said, "Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him?" Btw, for your information the angel of the Lord that appeared to her is "NOT" an angel but the preincarnate Jesus Christ. We know that but they did not know it.

And lastly, regarding the Jews during Jesus' day, they simply did not believe Him, just like you don't believe Him. Any other questions?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
If you don't mind me butting in, I will add that many the Jews did not believe in Jesus because it was God's intention for Him to be rejected and crucified. Does this mean God coerced their unbelief. No, their unbelief was what natural man would do by default. Jesus said " no one can come to me unless the Father draws him
it was by the Father's determinate councel and foreknowledge that Jesus was rejected and crucified in order to save us both Acts 2:23
 

Adam4Eve

Active member
Nov 26, 2018
179
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#16
...just like you don't believe Him
AHH yes, I'm beginning to recognise this response.

Question something assertively, OR point out that your question hasn't been adequately answered, and be accused of not being a 'true' Christian.

Like water off a duck's back.

Sorry if you find questions uncomfortable.

Good day and God bless you.
I'll pray for you my friend.
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
2,535
705
113
#17
AHH yes, I'm beginning to recognise this response.

Question something assertively, OR point out that your question hasn't been adequately answered, and be accused of not being a 'true' Christian.

Like water off a duck's back.

Sorry if you find questions uncomfortable.

Good day and God bless you.
I'll pray for you my friend.
Post 15 is a scriptural answer. your question has been answered. If you have follow up questions, that's good, but don't say you havent been answered.
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
2,535
705
113
#18
Acts 2:23 In accordance with God's established plan and foreknowledge, he was betrayed. You, with the help of wicked men, had Jesus killed by nailing him to a cross.

In other words, God had already determined before He even created the world that Jesus would be rejected and crucified. But that does not remove the responsibility of those who rejected Him, or the Romans who crucified Him, or us. Because these things were done by them freely, according to the sin in their hearts, not because God or anyone else coerced them. But God knew what they would do, and He sent His Son fully knowing and fully intending for Him to be crucified. IT was the plan all along.

Besides this, many Jews did believe on Him. Many who had believed on Him walked away because His teachings did not suit them. Others rejected Him because He did not meet their expectation of what a Messiah would be. They expected a warrior king to come and overthrow the Roman empire, but He came on a donkey. But besides all this, it was by God's established plan that He would be rejected and crucified. To save many people. Kind of a similar situation as Joseph in the Old Testament book of Genesis who was sold into slavery by his brethren. They intended it for evil, but God intended it for good.

So God brings good out of evil, but He still punishes evil even so, based on the INTENTIONS OF THEIR HEART.
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
1,294
149
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#19
AHH yes, I'm beginning to recognise this response.

Question something assertively, OR point out that your question hasn't been adequately answered, and be accused of not being a 'true' Christian.

Like water off a duck's back.

Sorry if you find questions uncomfortable.

Good day and God bless you.
I'll pray for you my friend.
Why are you being so "snotty?" Here were trying to help you understand things and you "cop" an attitude with people. Listen, I've been at lhis (being a Christian) for over 56 years now so I think I know a little bit about what I'm talking about.

And no, I am not uncomfortable about anything in the Bible. Now, you said this? "You know, one of the really frustrating things I'm finding with Christians, and something that is really putting me off, is that I can't get a straight answer to a straight question."

Why would you say you are frustrated by Christians and they put you off because you can't get a straight answer from them?" I took this to mean your not a Christian. So if you want to play games prove to me your a Christian? How did you become a Christian? Go ahead, I'll wait? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

NotmebutHim

Senior Member
May 17, 2015
1,896
542
113
#20
It may seem like proof-texting, but one of the reasons I believe that any manifestation of God in the Old Testament was the pre-incarnate Christ is because the Apostle John says both in his Gospel and his first epistle that "No one has seen God at any time......" If I recall reading correctly, the word for "God" in both places represented the Father.

I also believe that it was God the Son who gave Moses the Law. In that instance, the mountain shook and smoke rose from it. Likewise, when Christ was crucified, there was an earthquake strong enough to open the graves of the dead and to cause the veil in the Temple to be torn from top to bottom.