JEWS and the COMMANDMENTS

[Red33]

Those that are Jews and are descendants of Israel have this OT thing about observing all of their traditions and get enjoyment and satisfaction as part of their faith in learning and practicing them. I understand that. However, many have tried to extend to the NT church what they are to observe and in keeping of the commandments. I have no problem with the commandments that we have been given and we are to take those commandments, mix faith with them, and see what God will do. When you keep telling people that for them to love God they must keep the commandments, then that becomes an issue of measuring the righteousness of people by whether they keep the commandments or not. This is no different then what the Pharisees practiced and held over the heads of the people.

This is where a system of righteousness was developed through keeping the law. If you are Jewish or are of the people of Israel and you believe in YHWH and you love your tradition of keeping the law of commandments as proof that you love God, then go do it but don't put any NT saint under that burden because we have no such tradition or burden in the church. Don't project your history and traditions upon the church and hold believers to wearing your religious yamaka. Jesus Christ is the head of the church and the head of every man. Jesus Christ and His love covers us whether we keep the commandment as you think we should or not.

Christ fulfilled the law and we are to abide in Him and not in the commandments, but we let His word abide in us. This is what produces godly faith and it works by love, not that we love God but that He first loved us. The Holy Spirit sheds that love abroad in our heart and we walk by faith as a Spirit-filled believer living by every word of God with no striving but with an attitude of faith-rest. We don't keep ourselves in the love of God by keeping the commandments, we keep do it by abiding in Christ and responding to the love of God and the leading of the Spirit that quickens us according to the word.

 

[Grandpa]

There is a special honor in what the Jews have done.

They have kept the Law sacred by which all are saved by God. They have kept the word of God through all the ages, so that we could know the foundation of where our faith began.

Without Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy and Numbers we would be at a loss as to why a sacrifice is necessary for sin. We would be at a loss as to why Faith is more important than Tradition.

They have lived under a curse for a reason. So we wouldn't have to. So we would learn from them. Otherwise we would be making all the same mistakes they did/do. There is nothing new under the sun... lol

Just like Jesus, who was a Jew. He took the curse upon Himself that rightfully belonged to us.

Just like God hardened Pharoahs heart in order to bring the Jews out from captivity, He has done the same to the Jews in order to bring us out of captivity.

Satan hates Jews. There was this one Jew one time that overcame everything he tried to tempt Him with. That Jew continues to flaunt His Victory!!! Not only that but He teaches others how to have Victory too.

God Bless the Jews. After all, where would we be without them?

 

[Red33]

There is a special honor in what the Jews have done.

They have kept the Law sacred by which all are saved by God. They have kept the word of God through all the ages, so that we could know the foundation of where our faith began.

Without Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy and Numbers we would be at a loss as to why a sacrifice is necessary for sin. We would be at a loss as to why Faith is more important than Tradition.

They have lived under a curse for a reason. So we wouldn't have to. So we would learn from them. Otherwise we would be making all the same mistakes they did/do. There is nothing new under the sun... lol

Just like Jesus, who was a Jew. He took the curse upon Himself that rightfully belonged to us.

Just like God hardened Pharoahs heart in order to bring the Jews out from captivity, He has done the same to the Jews in order to bring us out of captivity.

Satan hates Jews. There was this one Jew one time that overcame everything he tried to tempt Him with. That Jew continues to flaunt His Victory!!! Not only that but He teaches others how to have Victory too.

God Bless the Jews. After all, where would we be without them?

Those are all good thoughts but should we be sentimental with a group of people that God had chosen for Himself and when God sent His Son unto them they rejected and crucified Him? Even Stephen as one of their own, that preached to them, was stoned to death. To me that is a rejection of Christ and I don't see any of today's descendants grieving over what their people did to Stephen. Those of Israel's descent should be humble to even know a Gentile believer who has been saved by the very mercy and grace of Messiah that they rejected according to their law. They do not recognize the love and mercy of God that has come to the Gentiles by grace through the Son and not by keeping any commandment.

Yes, we can appreciate what God did through them but they were also chosen to be God's light in all the earth and they rebelled. Some of them are humble and some are blinded and would not receive the gospel from us because of that blindness. They are in as much unbelief as any Gentile and even worse because they reject the first coming of the Messiah. God gives grace to the humble but rejects the proud and He still rejects those that reject His Son. That is the truth and you know it and just because they are of Israel, none of us are bound by any commandment to favour them. If they want to receive the gospel it must come from and through the Gentiles. Love them, yes, pray for them, yes, be kind to them, yes, reveal Christ to them, yes, but favour them or respect them for how they have treated the Messiah, NO. They are still in rebellion and they still are under chastisement from God and will be though the great tribulation.

 

[tribesman]

It was Constantine who saw to it that the "jewish" elements of christianity were as minimized as possible.

 

[Red33]

Where are all our descendants of Israel and Jewish brethren on this matter? Why are they not responding as to what they believe in their heart? What commandments has our Lord giving to them to follow in relationship to their own people who are blinded and walk in unbelief? Some chat on this site and love to talk about themselves in relationship to YHWH and love to instruct others how to live according to their understanding of the word of YHWH, but I would love to hear what they have to say about receiving the word of YHWH from a Gentile concerning what their people did to our Lord Jesus Christ when they rejected Him and called Him a blasphemer and had Him crucified.

Why should they be silent on this matter, this was their heritage in relationship to the Messiah. Have they kept the commandments and truly repented of their unbelief and the wickedness of their own people? For those that have through the blood of the cross and have been baptized unto Christ, then they have been accepted in the beloved and hopefully have come clean of their unbelief and careless disregard for rejecting the word and persons of the prophets. If this is not how it is for them being identified with their people, then they can speak up and tell it like it is. If they want to magnify our Lord Jesus Christ and identify with what Christ has done in breaking down that middle wall of partition, then let them rejoice and be thankful in recognizing that Christ's shed blood was for the sins of the whole world and not for some selected few.

There are many believers that need to repent of this false doctrine of a limited atonement and covering themselves in sackcloth and ashes might just be appropriate for some. If we are truly honest in our heart before the Lord, is it too much to lay it all out on the table? How many of those of Israel that have repented and profess faith in Jesus Christ, yet demand we keep the commandments, would take communion with the Gentiles that have also put their faith in the Lord and have been forgiven and cleansed of all sin? How many of them would lay their life down for their Gentile brethren that live under grace and not the law, that live by faith in the promises of God and not under the law, that live in the spirit of the law through mercy and grace and not in the condemnation of the letter of the law? How many of them allow their heart to be circumcised by grace and truth instead of by their adherence to the commandments of the law. Let them come forth and speak up on this matter.

 

[loveme1]

Gentiles seems to be the people of the twelve tribes that migrated.

I think they have gone forth into the earth and that is why the Gospel had to go there too.

Are the gentiles those that accept salvation all from the twelve tribes?? I am not stating this just considering that we who accept salvation have it in our blood line to?


People believe that we would not convert knowingly like other people have to different gods, that is why they had to infiltrate and change from within.

I think gentiles were lost sheep of Israel........... History as been altered but the Bible does say there are 12 gates into the New Jerusalem.


10And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

The thing is that anyone, anywhere could be of the twelve tribes....

any ethnicity could be of the 12 tribes..............

 

[JaumeJ]

The Children of Israel, while they were in the wilderness, were disobedient. By their disobedience, salvation was gained by the nations. What happened in the wilderness was the will of God, and it is a mystery to this day, though not totally. Had the Children of Israel been perfect, the nations would never stand a chance to enter the Kingdom of God.
I thank Jews everywhere for their diligence in maintaining the Word of God for the nations, for me. I will always love Jews, whether they are Messianic or whether the veil of Moshe yet covers their total understanding. The most influential individuals in my own life, aside from my parents, have always been Jews or descendants of Jews, and I know they will be in the Kingdom, again all is a mystery to be revealed, meanwhile I will not judge Jews, nor anyone, and because of Jesus Christ, I will not be judged. Praise God always in Jesus Christ, and may all in Jesus Christ be blessed and those who will come to Him, amen.

 

[loveme1]

The Children of Israel, while they were in the wilderness, were disobedient. By their disobedience, salvation was gained by the nations. What happened in the wilderness was the will of God, and it is a mystery to this day, though not totally. Had the Children of Israel been perfect, the nations would never stand a chance to enter the Kingdom of God.
I thank Jews everywhere for their diligence in maintaining the Word of God for the nations, for me. I will always love Jews, whether they are Messianic or whether the veil of Moshe yet covers their total understanding. The most influential individuals in my own life, aside from my parents, have always been Jews or descendants of Jews, and I know they will be in the Kingdom, again all is a mystery to be revealed, meanwhile I will not judge Jews, nor anyone, and because of Jesus Christ, I will not be judged. Praise God always in Jesus Christ, and may all in Jesus Christ be blessed and those who will come to Him, amen.

I thank Yahweh Almighty for his grace and mercy, because the jewish people were angering time after time!!

 

[JaumeJ]

I thank Yahweh Almighty for his grace and mercy, because the jewish people were angering time after time!!

People must realize that when it is written in the Book how the Jews were always angering God, time after time, it was not all of the Jews. It is certain you are well aware of this, but in case someone is reading our posts, they must be reminded of this very important reality. I love Yahweh, b'shem Yeshua hamashiach l'shi, amen.

 

[Bushido8000]

It was Constantine who saw to it that the "jewish" elements of christianity were as minimized as possible.

^ I'm with this guy. Since when is the OT not part of Christian faith? What makes the OT invalid so that Christians don't really have to follow it?

 

[Grandpa]

Everyone who has come to the Lord Jesus has done everything the Jews have done, pretty much.

At some point in your life did you entertain idolatry? Did you love something in your life more than the Lord?

At some point in your life did you murmur about not having enough?

At some point in your life did you not have the courage and the faith to do what God has told you?

The Lord Jesus laid down His Life freely. No one took His Life from Him. It is a common error to blame the Jews or the Pharisees. Everyone who has ever followed after the flesh is in the same boat as the Jews or the Pharisees of that era that people blame for the death of Jesus.

The Jews today have a terrible pride in their own understanding just like they did in Jesus time, and even in Moses time. But it is not just a problem of the jews. It is a problem of people.

 

[Red33]

Everyone who has come to the Lord Jesus has done everything the Jews have done, pretty much.

At some point in your life did you entertain idolatry? Did you love something in your life more than the Lord?

At some point in your life did you murmur about not having enough?

At some point in your life did you not have the courage and the faith to do what God has told you?

The Lord Jesus laid down His Life freely. No one took His Life from Him. It is a common error to blame the Jews or the Pharisees. Everyone who has ever followed after the flesh is in the same boat as the Jews or the Pharisees of that era that people blame for the death of Jesus.

The Jews today have a terrible pride in their own understanding just like they did in Jesus time, and even in Moses time. But it is not just a problem of the jews. It is a problem of people.

There is a terrible disposition among those that profess Christ who continue to declare there is something wrong with the church. We hear this over and over, yet we are instructed by the scriptures to edify and build up every member of the body of Christ that makes up the church. I would like to see the Jewish element of the church edify the Gentiles of the church and come to their side instead of separating themselves from others as they so often do practicing their faith as Jewish Christians without identifying with the Gentiles, who are part of the body of Christ. There are so few that mingle with others under the banner and headship of our Lord Jesus Christ. This is not judging, it is a fact of what is going on in the church and in segregated groups and is disconcerting.

When any man of God has been raised up as a Gentile preacher and is persecuted for the faith and the word they preach in any nation or tongue, have you seen any Jewish Christians come to the aid of that man of God. I never have, nor do I see many of the Gentile believers that live in self-righteousness and do not understand nor practice the royal law of love. The Jews and people of Israel that have believed upon YHWH keep their distance and separate themselves from these men of God and other Spirit-filled believers who are persecuted for their faith. Why is that and if you can prove me wrong, then put it on the table and do so. Where is the oneness that we are to have in Christ, where is the result of both Jew and Gentile being made one with that middle wall of partition being broken down? There is a few that love unconditionally but for the most part there is still this segregation in the heart and not a total abandonment to the one new man in Christ.

The gospel of Christ in His death, burial and resurrection was given to the Jew first at Pentecost and then to the Gentiles at the house of Cornelius. The Jews should be first responders when any form of persecution or slander is made against the church and body of Christ. Are we not members one of another and members of Christ body, flesh and bones? Enough with giving believers milk all th time, they need to be able bear up under the meat of God's word so that they can learn to exercise themselves in discerning the Lord's body and also discerning the goodness of God from the evil that tries to penetrate the church as the dissimulation of leaven.

 

[JaumeJ]

There is a terrible disposition among those that profess Christ who continue to declare there is something wrong with the church. We hear this over and over, yet we are instructed by the scriptures to edify and build up every member of the body of Christ that makes up the church. I would like to see the Jewish element of the church edify the Gentiles of the church and come to their side instead of separating themselves from others as they so often do practicing their faith as Jewish Christians without identifying with the Gentiles, who are part of the body of Christ. There are so few that mingle with others under the banner and headship of our Lord Jesus Christ. This is not judging, it is a fact of what is going on in the church and in segregated groups and is disconcerting.

When any man of God has been raised up as a Gentile preacher and is persecuted for the faith and the word they preach in any nation or tongue, have you seen any Jewish Christians come to the aid of that man of God. I never have, nor do I see many of the Gentile believers that live in self-righteousness and do not understand nor practice the royal law of love. The Jews and people of Israel that have believed upon YHWH keep their distance and separate themselves from these men of God and other Spirit-filled believers who are persecuted for their faith. Why is that and if you can prove me wrong, then put it on the table and do so. Where is the oneness that we are to have in Christ, where is the result of both Jew and Gentile being made one with that middle wall of partition being broken down? There is a few that love unconditionally but for the most part there is still this segregation in the heart and not a total abandonment to the one new man in Christ.

The gospel of Christ in His death, burial and resurrection was given to the Jew first at Pentecost and then to the Gentiles at the house of Cornelius. The Jews should be first responders when any form of persecution or slander is made against the church and body of Christ. Are we not members one of another and members of Christ body, flesh and bones? Enough with giving believers milk all th time, they need to be able bear up under the meat of God's word so that they can learn to exercise themselves in discerning the Lord's body and also discerning the goodness of God from the evil that tries to penetrate the church as the dissimulation of leaven.

I am not Jewish by birth, nor have I converted to Judaism. Messianic Jews would like the Jewish roots of the Christian theologies to not only recognize but incorporate the Jewish base of the Holy Book in the teachings of Christ Jesus who was called Yeshua by Mary, Joseph and all who knew Him while He walked this earth.
If one cannot hear out Jews who love the Messiah, one is simply intolerantly turning a stony heart to them.
Israel is the natural vine, we are generously grafted in at NO COST, and Jesus teaches us, warns us, not to weild ourselves over the natural vine because we may as easily be snipped off that natural vine and burned.
As far as arguing points of Scripture or ritual, this will always occur as long as people cling to theology over the law of Love. By the way, I hear some say there are two laws of love cited by Jesus, and there are, however if one faithfully adheres to the first and great law, the other naturally insues. God bless all in Jesus Christ, and all who will come to Him. Thanks be to the Jews for all their love and care of the Holy Word of God so that we of the nations may also become the Israel of God along with them, amen.

 

[Grandpa]

I haven't met any Jews yet that profess the Lord Jesus Christ and understand in their heart what He has done for them.

I have only met Jews that follow the Law of Moses and the feasts and try to use the Lord Jesus Christ as a cloak for some supposed fellowship. I see the same things in non-Jews who esteem the Law more than the Love of God.

If they had true Love of God in their hearts they would come to the aid of their brothers in Christ.

What you are witnessing or watching, is a fruit of sorts.

 

[JaumeJ]

I haven't met any Jews yet that profess the Lord Jesus Christ and understand in their heart what He has done for them.

I have only met Jews that follow the Law of Moses and the feasts and try to use the Lord Jesus Christ as a cloak for some supposed fellowship. I see the same things in non-Jews who esteem the Law more than the Love of God.

If they had true Love of God in their hearts they would come to the aid of their brothers in Christ.

What you are witnessing or watching, is a fruit of sorts.

I have never had a problem with felllowshipping with Messianic Brethren. All who have come to Christ are under the grace clause of the Law, yet it is still a clause of the law, albeit the law is inscribed on our hearts and we obey our hearts, therefore we obey the law. When we should fail, we may fall back on that clause; it is Jesus Christ crucified. Jesus is the ultimate, and now ONLY, offering for sin, taking the place of all those laws of sacrifices for sin, peace etc, and this is just part of how He fulfilled all righteousnes and the LAW. We are left with free will offerings, and they come in the form of earnest prayer, loving fellowship, and all the fruits of the Holy Spirit, faith, hope and love. It is wonderful, this freedom, and it is wonderful to be free to obey the law inscribed on our hearts. God bless all in Jesus Christ, amen. I have no problem calling Jesus by the name His friends and family called Him, Yeshua; it is the name given to Mary and Joseph by the Angel of the Lord.

 

[Grandpa]

All who have come to Christ are under the grace clause of the Law.

That is exactly what I was talking about.

Grace is not a clause.

Grace is a person.

You are following Grace, or you are following Law. You esteem one, or you esteem the other.

Romans 3:19-20

19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

This is Grace;
Romans 3:21-24
21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:


If you think you follow both you are double-minded, lukewarm.

Choose one, or the other.

Choose Blessing, or the Curse.

 

[JaumeJ]

If Christ's sacrifice on the cross is not the culmination of the Law, grace, then why worship Him. Of course He is my expiation for breaking any of the Law, I sometimes use the word, clause, simply because He is the addition or fulfillment of all the Law for me, my Grace. It is not some diabolical dogma, it is simply a word that more than adequately describes what He has accomplished for all mankind. God bless all in Christ. I do not know more than anyone else who loves and follows the Master, Yeshua, however what I am saying is totally according to what He has taught us. God bless and hold all near to Him who are in Jesus Christ, amen.

 

[RedTent]

Grandpa: You are expressing what God tells us and doing it so well!! Go man go!

Red: You say you are abiding in Christ. Please show me someone who sits in a corner repeating “I am abiding in Christ” and someone who is expressing Christ through his works, and I will show you about abiding in Christ. And no, the worker isn’t doing it to get to heaven, or for his own pleasure and satisfaction as the reason. The reason has to do with abiding in Christ.

 

[Grandpa]

If Christ's sacrifice on the cross is not the culmination of the Law, grace, then why worship Him. Of course He is my expiation for breaking any of the Law, I sometimes use the word, clause, simply because He is the addition or fulfillment of all the Law for me, my Grace. It is not some diabolical dogma, it is simply a word that more than adequately describes what He has accomplished for all mankind. God bless all in Christ. I do not know more than anyone else who loves and follows the Master, Yeshua, however what I am saying is totally according to what He has taught us. God bless and hold all near to Him who are in Jesus Christ, amen.

We are trapped under the curse of the Law until the Lord Jesus sets us free.

Grace is being set free from the curse of the Law.

Now we follow Jesus who has given us this Grace.

IF you think you follow both Law and Grace then you have one foot in and one foot out of the Blessing.

 

[Red33]

Grandpa: You are expressing what God tells us and doing it so well!! Go man go!

Red: You say you are abiding in Christ. Please show me someone who sits in a corner repeating “I am abiding in Christ” and someone who is expressing Christ through his works, and I will show you about abiding in Christ. And no, the worker isn’t doing it to get to heaven, or for his own pleasure and satisfaction as the reason. The reason has to do with abiding in Christ.

The only way that we can abide in Christ is by faith and the only way that His words can abide in us is also by faith. The works that we do through the word and Spirit is again by faith and that faith is motivated by the love of God that is in our heart through the Spirit. How else shall the just live, except by faith? That does not mean that we are not engaged in the works of God within the ministry that we have been given, but we are not justified by any of those works but rather by faith. What those works produce, through the leading of the Spirit and our obedience of faith, is the opportunity to preach the gospel through the word and ministry of reconciliation we have been given, and that is what God uses to bear fruit unto Himself.

All we do is participate in the plan of God, so he that plants and he that waters that which has been planted are nothing, for it is God that gives the increase and we are labourers together with God, we are God's husbandry (a cultivated field) and God's building (1Cor 3:7-9). That's not difficult and there is no striving in the flesh to make it happen. So you see, the whole duty of man in keeping the commandments is simply giving freely through grace what we have been freely given ( Rom 8:32, 1Cor 2:12, 2Cor 11:7, Mt 10:8, Rev 21:6), and the only way we can perform that is by cooperating with God through the humility of faith and allowing Him to fill us to do it.