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Here's a post I put together on the subject awhile back which might help you understand....
Romans 2:28-29 "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:[SUP]29 [/SUP]But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel.
Romans 9:6-9[SUP] "[/SUP]Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
The Promise of the Father is the seal of the Holy Spirit....nothing to do with flesh and blood, but rather the children of faith are counted for the seed.
Galatians 3:7
Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Romans 2:28-29 "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:[SUP]29 [/SUP]But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel.
Romans 9:6-9[SUP] "[/SUP]Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
The Promise of the Father is the seal of the Holy Spirit....nothing to do with flesh and blood, but rather the children of faith are counted for the seed.
Galatians 3:7
Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
IMO yes!
Ro 8:15, Ro 8:23, Ro 9:4, Gal 1:4, and Eph 1:5 all speak of believers as adopted into the family of God.
Jesus, a member of the Godhead, had no parental lineage beyond the Father; but on His mother's side his lineage is the tribe of Judah. When a child is adopted, he/she is adopted into both sides of the adopting family.
In a sense, I believe that all believers are Jews by birth and/ or by adoption.
The New Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-34 is clearly made with Israel and Judah.
Hebrews 8 and Hebrews 12 clearly indicate that the New Covenant applies to the church.
While this is surely true; it can only be true if the Church has been included in Israel or Judah.
The only basis for such inclusion is the adoption spoken of above.
Ro 8:15, Ro 8:23, Ro 9:4, Gal 1:4, and Eph 1:5 all speak of believers as adopted into the family of God.
Jesus, a member of the Godhead, had no parental lineage beyond the Father; but on His mother's side his lineage is the tribe of Judah. When a child is adopted, he/she is adopted into both sides of the adopting family.
In a sense, I believe that all believers are Jews by birth and/ or by adoption.
The New Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-34 is clearly made with Israel and Judah.
Hebrews 8 and Hebrews 12 clearly indicate that the New Covenant applies to the church.
While this is surely true; it can only be true if the Church has been included in Israel or Judah.
The only basis for such inclusion is the adoption spoken of above.
So the 144,000 spoken of in Revelation 7:1-8 from the 12 tribes of Israel will be believing Gentiles as well? Me no think so.
Revelation 7:4-8 (NET)
4 Now I heard the number of those who were marked with the seal, one hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed from all the tribes of the people of Israel:
5 From the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Gad, twelve thousand,
6 from the tribe of Asher, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Naphtali, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Manasseh, twelve thousand,
7 from the tribe of Simeon, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Levi, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Issachar, twelve thousand,
8 from the tribe of Zebulun, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Joseph, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed.
That was the believing Jews on earth...
Here is the raptured Church (comprised of believing Jews and Gentiles) in heaven...
Revelation 7:9 (NET) After these things I looked, and here was an enormous crowd that no one could count, made up of persons from every nation, tribe, people, and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb dressed in long white robes, and with palm branches in their hands.
Revelation 7:4-8 (NET)
4 Now I heard the number of those who were marked with the seal, one hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed from all the tribes of the people of Israel:
5 From the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Gad, twelve thousand,
6 from the tribe of Asher, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Naphtali, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Manasseh, twelve thousand,
7 from the tribe of Simeon, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Levi, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Issachar, twelve thousand,
8 from the tribe of Zebulun, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Joseph, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed.
That was the believing Jews on earth...
Here is the raptured Church (comprised of believing Jews and Gentiles) in heaven...
Revelation 7:9 (NET) After these things I looked, and here was an enormous crowd that no one could count, made up of persons from every nation, tribe, people, and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb dressed in long white robes, and with palm branches in their hands.
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V
Romans 2:28,29 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.
I disagree, we inherit the same promises being the seed of Abraham.
Galatians 3:16
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ..............
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise...........[SUP] 26[/SUP]For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Galatians 3:16
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ..............
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise...........[SUP] 26[/SUP]For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
But in Romans 9-11 Paul refers to the promises given to Israel, and then indicates that they will fulfilled to the elect of Israel (9.6 etc), which he then indicates are the foundation of the true church which included Gentiles (Rom 11.12-24). Thus Paul see the promises as given to the church. Furthermore Hebrews 11.10-14 makes clear that the land promises will be fulfilled in the heavenly sphere, in the new heavens and the new earth. There are thus no grounds for seeing the land promises as applying to present unbelieving Israel.
R
(Just-ME)
A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Titus 3:10
(Robin)
Made myself laugh ... at myself ... when I first saw the above verse, with the word "heretick" I mistook it for ...
Well, I immediately thought of an old joke, whose punchline was, "Wooden Eye! Wooden Eye!"
If you dont mind my asking, what NT version are you using? The word, here, being read as "heretick" is unique in the NT,
only use this once by Paul, and another reason I wanted to join in this topic thread, is because there's yet another topic thread going on, that is attempting to define "heretick" ... and yet they haven't yet mentioned this verse from Titus ...Ummm?
Now then, this Greek word is " Αἱρετικὸν" ... transliterated as "hairetikon" ... it's actually an adjective {Strong's# 0141 A-ASM}, not a noun, but often in the NT these stand alone adjectives or modifiers are read as if they were nouns. It comes from the the related verb Strongs# 0138, which means "to take" or "to prefer" ... two verses of Paul's that use this verb are Phil 1:22 and 2Thes 2:13, where I personally have these reading as "I will prefer" {V-FMI-1S} and "He had preferred" {V-2AMI-3S} ...
But back to the Titus verse, and this word currently being read as "heretick" ... Zodhiates' "The Complete Word Study Dictionary," says among other things, this about that: pertaining to choice; capable of choice in an action or sense.
Zodhiates also says, about the verb # 0138: to take for oneself, to choice, elect, prefer ... so you can easily see the relationship.
The Rotherham translation reads this adjective rather interestingly as ..."a party man" ...
I usually like Rotherham's readings, but dont particularly care for his reading, here.
Youngs translation reads the adjective as ..."a sectarian man" ... as does the Dabhar and Concordant translations.
I too, think that "sectarian" is the preferable (pun intended) word choice; as for it being a modifier or adjective, you
will notice that all of the above more literal translation do, also, recognize that there actually is a following noun to be discriptive of ... "anthrOpon" ... or ..."man" ...that is, "a sectarian man" and "a party man" ...The reason I mention this, is, you will notice,
that your refereced translation sort of treats "heretick" as a noun, by turning the actual word order around (syntax) and reading this as ..."a man [that is] a heretick" ... almost as if, we're suppose to already know the definition of what a so-called "heretick" is suppose to be? Rather what the Greek words, what Paul is actually saying is simply ... "to a sectarian man" ...
and it's not until the next verse (3:11), where he provides us some details about what such "a sectarian man" is like.
That is, not only does a "sectarian man" refuse repeated admonitions (verse 3:10), but he is self-condemned in his failings (sins), and has had been "out-turned" {1612 V-RPI-3S} ...which Zodhiates says means: to turn out of a place, to turn inside out as a garment, used metaphorically meaning to change for the worse, subvert, pervert ...
That is a sectarian man not only refuses admonitions (not ignores, but refuses), and because of this changes for the worse, subsequently fails (sins), and (interestingly enough) is self-condemned.
"To a sectarian man, with one and a second admonition, be you refusing,
having had perceived that the such a [one], he has had been out-turned and he fails, a self-condemned [one] being.
Bottom line, I know from Paul, to some extent, what a sectarian man is ... or at least how he acts, but I dont yet have a clear definition of what a so-called "heretick" might be ... seeing as how, I cant find it specifically defined in the NT?
(Skylove7)
...Wooden Eye! Wooden Eye!
(Robin)
Hairliip! Hairlip! ...
***
3:10 Αἱρετικὸν ἄνθρωπον μετὰ μίαν καὶ δευτέραν νουθεσίαν παραιτοῦ,
hairetikon anthrOpon meta mian kai deuteran nouthesian paraitou
To a sectarian man, with one and a second admonition, be you refusing,
to a sectarian [one] {0141 A-ASM} to a man {0444 N-ASM} with {3326 PREP} to a one [one] {1520 A-ASF} and {2532 CONJ} to a second [one] {1208 A-ASF} to an admonition {3559 N-ASF} be you refusing {3868 V-PNM-2S}