John 6:37

crossnote · Jan 26, 2013

No it is hopefully a discussion concentrating on John 6:37 where we present our case Scripturally and not a debate where we slice and dice each other.
I realize there are those on both sides of the issue including Rock's Sacramental approach. My posting time is limited so I can't possibly answer all the objections but do try all to keep it to your defense of Jn 6:37.
I dislike this new format 'cause I can't paste using my tablet.

Elin · Jan 26, 2013

Abiding said:

Paul is dealing with the sovereignty of God in hardening the hearts of Israel, which is why they deny Christ.

Denying Christ is first and foremost about salvation (Ro 9:18, 27, 30-33).

Rock022 · Jan 26, 2013

crossnote said:

Fair enough in keeping with the subject I know how hard it can be at times.

If you read it carefully you can see that there are no two different groups, What belongs to the Father belongs to the Son, and what belongs to the Son belongs to the Father. They are one.

crossnote · Jan 26, 2013

Abiding said:

Just curious, what Scriptural support for 'God will never give the Son anyone that hasnt followed those commands'?
what commands did we follow before the foundation of the world?
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

crossnote · Jan 26, 2013

Rock022 said:

I am not sure what you mean by 'two groups '? The 'both sides' I was referring to were the. monergists and synergists, I am of the first persuasion.

Abiding · Jan 26, 2013

Elin said:

I do not believe the bible teaches the reason some Israelites did not receive Christ was
Because a sovereign God (notice partial, not total)hardened their hearts.

I do believe the bible teaches that Israel rejected Christ and were hardened and cut off
because of unbelief. So He could have mercy on all. If they believe they will be grafted back in.

Hardening as a judgement is not new to Israel or some strange thing. God has and will do
this to anyone who reject Christs and the truth. 2 thess2 goes into that.

Abiding · Jan 26, 2013

crossnote said:

Throwing in Eph 1:4 wrapped around your question is not a question. All it is is two truths. And have to answered
one at a time.

First the Eph 1:4 chose for what? that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love...right? no mention
of salvation there.

But salvation is mentioned in the context in verses 12 and 13: Ephesians 1:12-13

[SUP]12 [/SUP]That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Some folk love Gods Sovereignty and dont care much for His foreknowledge. And try to play with
the definition of foreknowledge, why im not sure. But your context does show an order to salvation.

Trust in the gospel, the word of truth, then regeneration/sealing.

The first question is answered all over the bible salvation is conditional and man has to respond.
If not then the Father would be giving the Son those who refuse and reject Him.

Abiding · Jan 26, 2013

"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him" (Jn. 3:36).

"There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day" (Jn. 12:48).

2 thess 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

john 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

2 thess 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2 Thessalonians 2:12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

john 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

john 12:42-43: 42 Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue; 43 for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

Acts 7: 51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.

John 5:40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

"But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine upon them." II Corinthians 4:3-4

Since they did not consider it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, He gave them over to a depraved mind Romans 1:28

Abiding · Jan 26, 2013

crossnote said:

do monergists believe that being sealed with the Holyspirit is a second blessing or something?
If not than they are synergists if they take the sealing as regeneration.

BarlyGurl · Jan 26, 2013

crossnote said:

It really does help... if when attempting to formulate doctrine... a person takes into careful consideration the CONTEXT of what is being said and to who it is being said to. MYOPICALLY examining a 'single' verse within a 'whole' saying intended to harmonize with an entire theology is kinda the same as reading a recipe to make a cake and getting all hung up on "teaspoon of salt". If someone is reading a cake recipe to bake a cake... this conflict just shouldn't happen. If you are reading a cake recipe to make meatloaf... there is an inherent problem already that needs dealt with and scrutinizing teaspoon of salt isn't going to resolve the issue.

Elin · Jan 26, 2013

Abiding said:

God hardened a partial number of Israel, and not all of Israel.

He did not "partially harden" their hearts.

We are all born with hardened hearts.
All God has to do to "harden" them is withhold his softening grace.

He is withholding his softening grace to a partial number of Israel, to the greater portion of them.

Agreed.

Abiding · Jan 26, 2013

Elin said:

Actually i dont know what made use the word harden when the context i was thinking
of was blindness in part. I made a total mix up of two distinct things.

My point being is that the blindness was only in part....till the gentiles were estblished
into the church and the old covenent was put away.

Also that the blindness was from unbelief and not because they were not the elect.

Abiding · Jan 26, 2013

Matt 13:[SUP]10 [/SUP]The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”[SUP]11 [/SUP]He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you,but not to them. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. [SUP]13 [/SUP]This is why I speak to them in parables:
“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
“‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them

"But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine upon them." II Corinthians 4:3-4

Above verses show how unbelief and refusal of the gospel can cause
judicial blindness nothing special happened to Israel.

Romans 9-11 has been abused so much by calvinists and dispensationalists
folks dont just read it anymore as it was intended

tribesman · Jan 26, 2013

Abiding said:

The gospel is not about a "chance". Jesus said it is impossible for men to get saved through their own efforts. Only with God is it possible.

crossnote · Jan 27, 2013

Abiding said:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
(Eph 1:3-5)

seems to me 'every spiritual blessing' includes salvation.
it also includes (even as) his choosing us IN HIM before the foundation of the world,
and the purpose (that we should) is our holiness.
Adoption is also included in His predestinating us... according to our will? no. His will!

crossnote · Jan 27, 2013

BarlyGurl said:

I realize all that about context and the danger of building doctrine on one verse. I could of used a plethora of verses but to keep the topic focused I decided to pick this one, but feel free to support your view with proper hermeneutics.

Cobus · Jan 27, 2013

I am talking about these two goups.... Jesus said He is praying for the ones that Father had given Him, and they are His and the Father's. Jesus also says He prays for the ones that will believe n Him through their words. So I see the one group as the people Jesus pryed for, and the "other" group Jesus did not pray for. The ones the Father gave Jesus, were the disciples that believed n Him while HE teached when He was here on earth. And the ones tht will believe on Him, even the ones today, that believe on Him through their word, also ones the Father DRAWN to Him. They are the ones that is in ONE group. The holiness of the believers when Jesus was here, and the holiness of the believers today is the SAME SANCTIFICATION.... The Same Holy Spirit in all of them.... That is why Jesus did pray for EVERY BELIEVER, and NOT for the unbelieving world.

All believers is ONE GROUP, because of the ONE Spirit they ALL HAVE. The World CANNOT recieve that Spirit, for they live in their iniquity (and also DIE IN SIN). Jesus did NOT pray for this group.

There are two groups of people here on earth, ONLY two... One group belong to Father/Jesus/Holy Spirit, and the other to the world. One group is from the heavenly Kingdom, and the other from the World. Even in Jesus' days the people did not realize whom they belonged too. When the "Godly" men challenged Jesus, He said to them.... You are from your father the devil.... And they thought they had God and the God of Abraham as their father/God.

Jesus said... He has the flock of sheep that is Jew, and He has another flock of sheep, the gentiles, and this will be ONE FLOCK. Where HE is the shepard. So undrstand it perfectly.... He has His sheep, and there is no GOATS amongst His sheep, also NONE of His sheep is with another shepard.
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
So the two groups is the ones that are God's and the other the children of Satan... 1 John 3 explains how to descern.

crossnote · Jan 27, 2013

Okay Cobus,
tying this in to the topic, do you believe both groups are included in John 6:37 and why?

Abiding · Jan 27, 2013

tribesman said:

Yes the gospel is to about a chance. Without Gods work? No because Its impossible. But in that
if you mean man doesnt have to play a role in receiving the gift...which i think is your point ill put your scripture
back into context.

Matthew 19:16-26

[SUP]16 [/SUP]And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
[SUP]26 [/SUP]But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

tribesman do you see verse 21. Was Jesus asking the man to atone for himself? No!
or justify himself? No! did the young rich ruler have a will? Aparently! did he reject Christ? Yes!
was the whole story a comedy? might be in some peoples estimation.

Abiding · Jan 27, 2013

crossnote said:

Although i may debate scripture in the forums. And i admit since people have a system of theology
which seems to make it hard to not be saying onething related to their system when your actually
saying something different.

If that didnt make sense the point is im not saying God doesnt chose His elect. Of coarse He does.
But it doesnt end there. The bible gives us more truth as the hows whys whens and wheres.
Mans will alone cant save him but he has to will to be saved. Not left to himself, but he can refuse
ive given several scriptures and will provide more if requested.

A man cant reject something or receive anything without a will.

John 6:37

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