John 8:41

Timeline · Aug 29, 2014

I actually agree with you on this one, Jason. They were trying to tear Jesus down so they suggested that He had been born of fornication. Though we know this was not true, there may have been rumor of this going around - Logically, not completely/mostly from scripture, we know that the math shouldn't have been that difficult at that time (Marriage + Pregnancy = 9 months).

I don't know how to type an equal sign with a mark thru it, so I just typed it in red

.

This society was much closer than ours. It would be almost impossible to cover up this "short" pregnancy if it had been less than 8 months between marriage and His birth. It also seems that it was common practice, at the time, to finalize marriage through intercourse - which we know did not happen before Jesus was born. Anyway, I think that we can see that this rumor had most likely spread, from the Pharisees' claim in John 8:41.

Although it is not conclusive.

Unless I am shown that this issue is relevant, this will be my last post on this topic.

directline2iam · Aug 29, 2014

Jason0047 said:

Understanding of other verses gives the proper meaning of just one verse, it's called context. Try it.

posthuman · Aug 29, 2014

there is more contextual evidence in the conversation that the Pharisees were making jabs at Christ's birth, saying "where is your father" in verse 19, but they did not understand what He was talking to them about (explicitly this is said in verse 27 that they didn't understand that He was talking about the Father in heaven, and in verse 22 it's implied also that they were not understanding what He taught).

whether the Pharisees were trying to be insulting or just argumentative isn't specifically made clear, but the important point is that they were talking about earthly things and Christ was rebuking them with spiritual things. i can agree with Jason on the double-entendré intent of the Pharisees, but Jesus was taking their doubt and argument and turning the conversation toward heavenly things, which we also should do.

even with this understanding, i understand verse 41 specifically to be referencing heritage through Ismael vs. through Isaac -- Ismael would be a son of fornication, because Hagar was not Abram's wife.
Jesus told them that He knew they were Abraham's "seed" (verse 37) but that they were not his "children" -- the Lord is drawing a contrast between being genetically descended from Abraham and truly being his child, like Paul later said that 'not all Israel is Israel" -- but i think the Pharisees took the meaning to be that Jesus was insulting their genetic 'Jewness' -- while in fact what He was declaring was their lack of spiritual 'Jewness'
i believe they didn't understand Him correctly, and when they said we aren't "sons of fornication" (verse 41) they themselves were thinking Jesus had called them descendants of Ismael. perhaps spiritually this wasn't far off the mark, but by this point in the conversation they are responding to His words directly, not making insult.

this relates directly to us today -- many are 'christians' in that they go to a church, know some bible verses, give some tithe, maybe do some charity and keep a sabbath -- but are not "Christians" in that they are truly followers of Christ.

just as these men Jesus spoke with were Jews by birth, descended from Abraham and keeping the customs, but in their hearts were not children of Abraham's heart.

there may have been intent to insult by the Pharisees, but they were specifically replying to what they perceived as a question of their lineage, and Jesus was not talking to them of earthly lineage.

it's interesting to read this with the understanding that they were insulting Jesus' birth, and He turns it back on them by pointing out the spiritual reality of their own birth!! the wicked will fall into their own pit, yes?

most importantly though, the Pharisees were stuck in earthly thinking, and Christ was speaking spiritually, to those whose ears could hear it.

Jason0047 · Aug 29, 2014

I see the statement made by the Pharisees in John 8:41 as an insult of Christ's birth and as a defense of that they are of the true children of God. For one, they would have said, they are the true children of God and not born of fornication. Two, as "Post Human" pointed out, there are other sayings that allude to the Pharisee's jabs or attacks against Christ (Like, "Where is your Father?).

Jason0047 · Aug 29, 2014

posthuman said:

there is more contextual evidence in the conversation that the Pharisees were making jabs at Christ's birth, saying "where is your father" in verse 19, but they did not understand what He was talking to them about (explicitly this is said in verse 27 that they didn't understand that He was talking about the Father in heaven, and in verse 22 it's implied also that they were not understanding what He taught).

whether the Pharisees were trying to be insulting or just argumentative isn't specifically made clear, but the important point is that they were talking about earthly things and Christ was rebuking them with spiritual things. i can agree with Jason on the double-entendré intent of the Pharisees, but Jesus was taking their doubt and argument and turning the conversation toward heavenly things, which we also should do.

Thanks "Post Human."

I agree with this part of your post.

Anyways, may God bless you.
And please have a great day in the Lord today.

Deadtosin · Aug 29, 2014

Why do we suppose the Pharisees in the spiritual apex of Jerusalem would have cared to know the 30 year old gossip about a carpenter from Nazareth?

When Jesus said "Before Abraham was I AM" He was very simply and effectively showing them that He holds a superior heavenly office. The pharisees take pride in the lineage of Abraham (their father) and Jesus was showing that He is God. So what did they do? they took up stones to cast at him. Why? they understood He was claiming deity.

As far as when they say "where is your father?"

Look at the verse prior to that. Jesus says "My Father bears witness of me" they reply "where is your father?"
Jesus is the one who keeps mentioning His Father, over and over again and they are clearly being defensive. I find it absurd that we keep having this discussion. I accept that you will believe whatever you want and that's okay. I will never change my mind. The bible is straight forward in everything it says if people would just read it and accept what is written how it's written we could save a lot of time.

Bowman · Aug 29, 2014

Jason0047 said:

Jesus refutes this in the previous verse, as he declares that Abraham saw Him as a MAN....but Abraham never attempted to Kill Jesus....

But now you seek to kill Me, a man who has spoken the truth to you, which I heard alongside of God. Abraham did not do this. (John 8.40)

At the end of this same chapter, Jesus makes the same statement even bolder, as He states outright that Abraham SAW Jesus!

Therefore, we must conclude that Jesus, as a MAN, existed in OT times.

Jason0047 · Aug 29, 2014

Bowman said:

When I posted my OP (Original Post), it was from a discussion within another thread so as to answer somebody else. So it was not exactly clear. So sorry about that. If I could edit my post (past more than 5 mintues - I would have fixed it by now).

Anyways, I believe Jesus is God Almighty in the flesh. I believe the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us. The Word was made flesh when Jesus was born of the virgin Mary. Eternally, the Word (Second person of the Godhead) is a part of the three that bear record in Heaven and are one (i.e. the Trinity). For the Word is spirit, uncreated and eternal and is God Almighty in the flesh. This Word holds all things together by the Word of His power; Because the Word is God.

The point of this discussion is about whether or not the Jews accused Jesus of being born out illegitimacy. For even Joseph thought the wrong thing about Mary and was going to divorce her.

Jason0047 · Aug 29, 2014

Deadtosin said:

Why do we suppose the Pharisees in the spiritual apex of Jerusalem would have cared to know the 30 year old gossip about a carpenter from Nazareth?

When Jesus said "Before Abraham was I AM" He was very simply and effectively showing them that He holds a superior heavenly office. The pharisees take pride in the lineage of Abraham (their father) and Jesus was showing that He is God. So what did they do? they took up stones to cast at him. Why? they understood He was claiming deity.

As far as when they say "where is your father?"

Look at the verse prior to that. Jesus says "My Father bears witness of me" they reply "where is your father?"
Jesus is the one who keeps mentioning His Father, over and over again and they are clearly being defensive. I find it absurd that we keep having this discussion. I accept that you will believe whatever you want and that's okay. I will never change my mind. The bible is straight forward in everything it says if people would just read it and accept what is written how it's written we could save a lot of time.

I honestly can't understand how you can't see it. If the Jews wanted to say they were God's children, they would just say that and not say they were not born of fornication. Anyways, please do not take my word for it, but ask God about it and see what He says (Jeremiah 33:3).

Jason0047 · Aug 29, 2014

In fact, nowhere does Jesus actually say they were of a different tribe that was not of Abraham. On the contrary Jesus recognized that they were of Abraham's seed.

John 8:37
"I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you."

So the whole theory that they were thinking Jesus was saying that they were of a different seed than Abraham does not exist within John 8. Jesus was saying they were not children of God.

posthuman · Aug 29, 2014

Deadtosin said:

i see your point, but think about how far back we dig up dirt on political candidates?
the Jews as a race were very concerned with their lineage. if you could not show that you were descended from Abraham, through Isaac, you would not be accepted as an Israelite. all these records were kept to show what tribe you were in and who was your father's father etc -- it was a much bigger deal to them than it is to us today.

so i can see that for one, they would be concerned about genealogy, and for two, they were seeking to discredit Him, and would have seized on His virgin birth if they had heard about it. it's believable to me that some would have made a point of trying to insult Him with such comments.

it seems likely that this line of talk didn't go very far - because many people believed, and we see in other places how the force and fear of the crowds prevented the Pharisees from taking actions or speaking (e.g. when Christ asked them about John the baptizer, whether his baptism was from God). it makes sense to me that they may have been saying some of these things in the beginning of the conversation in John 8 meaning to be a snide allusion.. but i can accept that they weren't either, because like you say, a 30 year old rumor may not have been on their minds at all. the scripture isn't really clear about it here, and the context of the conversation tells me that if they were meant to be insulting remarks, they were not direct slurs but double-entendré at the most.

Jason0047 · Aug 29, 2014

One more thing I want to add: It is true that the pharisees recognized their lineage and the Father and or God, but they would not say they are illegitmate children and speak in the negative sense about themselves. They were speaking negative against Christ and were attacking Him.

posthuman · Aug 29, 2014

they called Him a Samaritan -- that would be a non-Jew, right? that lends credence to the idea that they had His genealogy in mind...

The Jews answered him, "Aren't we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?"
(John 8:48)

us gentiles skip right over Jesus' genealogy in the beginning of the gospels -- but to a Jewish audience this was very important!

Jason0047 · Aug 29, 2014

posthuman said:

Ah, good catch. Thank you. Granted, Samaritans were half Jews, and not pure Jews or Israelites. That does give credence to the fact that they were thinking he was born of illegitimacy in their minds.

Bowman · Aug 29, 2014

Jason0047 said:

It seems pretty clear that the non-believing Jews asserted that Jesus was illegitimately born.....however, Jesus corrects them and declares that He existed as a MAN even in the time of Abraham.

If Jesus existed as a MAN in the OT, as He said that He did, then He existed in the flesh BEFORE being born through a woman.

Follow the logic....?

Deadtosin · Aug 29, 2014

Jason0047 said:

In fact, nowhere does Jesus actually say they were of a different tribe that was not of Abraham. On the contrary Jesus recognized that they were of Abraham's seed.

John 8:37
"I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you."

So the whole theory that they were thinking Jesus was saying that they were of a different seed than Abraham does not exist within John 8. Jesus was saying they were not children of God.

I never intended you to think I meant Jesus said they weren't from Abrahams seed.

Deadtosin · Aug 29, 2014

Bowman said:

I understand your logic, but it's unnecessary... This thread is not just about the non believing Jews questioning Jesus' illegitimacy it is specifically about verse 41. So lets get some context for what is about to transpire.

let's take this one at a time.

Jason has made it clear that he believes that when the Pharisees said in verse 19 "where is your father?" that they were beginning their snide remarks regarding His illegitimate birth. Here is the problem with that.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

[SUP]17 [/SUP]It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

[SUP]19[/SUP]Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

The bible even clarifies they don't know He is talking about God yet. [SUP]27 [/SUP]They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.

without reading into this further than it states, they are simply responding to Jesus.

"oh your father bears witness of you? where is he?"

Did they even know He wasn't Josephs son?

What about 2 chapters ago in John 6?

[SUP]41 [/SUP]The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
[SUP]42 [/SUP]And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know?

We don't actually have any scripture to support that the Jews believed ANYTHING contrary regarding His birth prior to His resurrection. Keep in mind they didn't think they would have to "debunk" Jesus after He died.

Then in verse 39, we have Jesus telling the Pharisees that THEY are spiritually illegitimate (which they perceived)

[SUP]39 [/SUP]They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

[SUP]40 [/SUP]But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

[SUP]41 [/SUP]Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

[SUP]42 [/SUP]Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Gentleman, if they were talking about Jesus biological father why would they not say "we know our fathers." but they don't. They say "We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even GOD"

Judges 2
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And yet they would not hearken unto their judges, but they went a whoring after other gods, and bowed themselves unto them: they turned quickly out of the way which their fathers walked in, obeying the commandments of the Lord; but they did not so.

Maybe this verse has some light to shed on this conversation that happened so long ago.

What does Jesus say after verse 41 in response to this "supposedly snide" remark? Is He talking about biological fathers? the Jews obviously weren't by their own account.

[SUP]42 [/SUP]Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

[SUP]43 [/SUP]Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

[SUP]44 [/SUP]Ye are of your father the devil,Nope, they are all still talking about a spiritual Father...

Sorry guys' I disagree with your view.

posthuman · Aug 29, 2014

Jason0047 said:

right, back in chapter 6 it is "the Jews" who were saying 'isn't that Joe & Mary's kid?' - so it wasn't a mystery where He was from, and genealogy and heritage was very important to these people. it's reasonable to think the Pharisees would have heard him in the synagogue and inquired about who He was and where He had come from.

The Jews answered him,
"Aren't we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?"
(John 8:48)

the Pharisees thought Jesus was a Samaritan.

Jesus replies -
I am not possessed by a demon, but I honor my Father and you dishonor me.

He doesn't directly answer whether He is a Samaritan; He isn't talking about earthly fathers, because He has none! but He directly answers whether He is possessed by a demon.

was Jesus a Samaritan? no - the woman at the well was, and she asked Him about the ways Jews worship - He said
You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.
(John 4:22)
identifying Himself as a Jew!
Jesus was born a Jew - we have Mary's and Joseph's genealogy.

why could the Pharisees have thought him a Samaritan?

Jason0047 · Aug 29, 2014

Bowman said:

Uh, no, my friend. The incarnation did not happen until the New Testament. In John chapter 8: Jesus was merely saying He is the " I AM " from Exodus chapter 3.

Jason0047 · Aug 29, 2014

posthuman said:

I agree with everything you said except the last sentence that raises doubt on Christ's lineage. That may not have been your intent, but I don't believe Jesus was a Samaritan (Which I am hoping you don't either). For He was talking to a Samaritan woman and said "we Jews know..." etc. Jesus is purely of Jewish descent. This is important (Like you said) because the Messiah would come out of Israel to save His people from their sins.

John 8:41

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