John Chapter 3 REFUTES Five Point Calvinism

[Danny1988]

Saul (Paul) wasn't a reprobate?

We can never know who Gods elect are, only they know and God knows and nobody else.

There are many murderers and and adulterers and all kinds of sinners among Gods elect. The Bible gives us so many examples

 

[Deuteronomy]

All are able to hear and learn. A lot of people choose not to.

Hi Shrume, why would any reasonable/rational person do that (especially when you consider the two choices)?

Thanks!

~Deut

 

[Deuteronomy]

The word for "appointed" or "ordained" is in the middle voice, and it means they were appointing themselves. They did this by choosing to believe the gospel they were hearing.

Acts 13
48 As many as had been appointed [ordained] to eternal life believed.

τάσσω [tasso] "appointed/ordained" is in the passive voice in v48, not the middle voice.

 

[shrume]

Hi Shrume, why would any reasonable/rational person do that (especially when you consider the two choices)?

Thanks!

~Deut

Simple. Many people do not believe in God.

 

[shrume]

Acts 13
48 As many as had been appointed [ordained] to eternal life believed.

τάσσω [tasso] "appointed/ordained" is in the passive voice in v48, not the middle voice.

It's actually either passive or middle. It's meaning must be derived from the scope of scripture.

The verb tasso means, “to place in a certain order,…to arrange, to assign a place, to appoint...to consecrate (R. V. set) oneself to minister unto one, 1 Cor. 16:15…Middle [voice] (as often in Greek writings) properly, to appoint on one’s own responsibility or authority,” (Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon).

Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. to put in order, to station
   1. to place in a certain order, to arrange, to assign a place, to appoint
      1. to assign (appoint) a thing to one
   2. to appoint, ordain, order
      1. to appoint on one's own responsibility or authority
      2. to appoint mutually, i.e. agree upon

 

[trofimus]

It's actually either passive or middle. It's meaning must be derived from the scope of scripture.

The verb tasso means, “to place in a certain order,…to arrange, to assign a place, to appoint...to consecrate (R. V. set) oneself to minister unto one, 1 Cor. 16:15…Middle [voice] (as often in Greek writings) properly, to appoint on one’s own responsibility or authority,” (Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon).

Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. to put in order, to station
   1. to place in a certain order, to arrange, to assign a place, to appoint
      1. to assign (appoint) a thing to one
   2. to appoint, ordain, order
      1. to appoint on one's own responsibility or authority
      2. to appoint mutually, i.e. agree upon

ἀκούοντα δὲ τὰ ἔθνη ἔχαιρον καὶ ἐδόξαζον τὸν λόγον τοῦ Κυρίου, καὶ ἐπίστευσαν ὅσοι ἦσαν τεταγμένοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον·

In this sentence, the combination of words "ésan tetagmenoi eis" makes it to be passive. Thats why all main translations translate it in this way:

"all who were appointed for eternal life believed." NIV

 

[shrume]

ἀκούοντα δὲ τὰ ἔθνη ἔχαιρον καὶ ἐδόξαζον τὸν λόγον τοῦ Κυρίου, καὶ ἐπίστευσαν ὅσοι ἦσαν τεταγμένοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον·

In this sentence, the combination of words "ésan tetagmenoi eis" makes it to be passive. Thats why all main translations translate it in this way:

"all who were appointed for eternal life believed." NIV

Acts 13:48 . . . as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. This is quickly visible as useful material to the predisposition that God chooses individuals to salvation and not others. The assumption is made that here God is implicated as the appointer to eternal life and due to this as many as were appointed by Him believed. Just like the other verse in Acts discussed above there is a difference with the Greek text. The Greek here is as follows:

kai - episteusan - hosoi - ésan - tetagmenoi - eis zòén - aiònion

literally this gives: and - (they) believed - as many as - (they) were having (been) determined - into - life - everlasting

The Zondervan interlinear has this: . . . and believed as many as were having been disposed to life eternal.

Page 389 of The Zondervan Parallel New Testament in Greek and English © Literal English Translation Samuel Bagster and Sons LTD1958.

‘As many as were disposed’ makes the appointment a self-appointment which makes sense since God, as the Subject grammatically, is not to be found in the text. Unlike Romans 13:1 where tetagmenai is also found but with the words added ‘by God’.

^^^ http://junto.elparazim.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/So-You-Think-Youre-Chosen_-More_-Jacques.pdf

There are differing opinions.

 

[trofimus]

^^^ http://junto.elparazim.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/So-You-Think-Youre-Chosen_-More_-Jacques.pdf

There are differing opinions.

Do you have some Bible translations saying it in a different way than the passive one? Because it would be quite a magic to do that with the sentence.

 

[shrume]

Do you have some Bible translations saying it in a different way than the passive one?

Not one that you would accept.

I'll leave it at that...

 

[Danny1988]

Hi Shrume, why would any reasonable/rational person do that (especially when you consider the two choices)?

Thanks!

~Deut

No rational or reasonable person would ever choose to accept the Gospel, it's utter foolishness to the natural intelligent man

 

[trofimus]

Not one that you would accept.

I'll leave it at that...

Well, if 20 translations on biblehub.com translate it in a passive mode and one interlinear zondervan translates the sentence in obviously a strange way... I think it says something

But anyway, I am going to bed, later.

 

[shrume]

No rational or reasonable person would ever choose to accept the Gospel, it's utter foolishness to the natural intelligent man

Actually, it is rational, reasonable, and wise people who choose to believe the gospel.

 

[Danny1988]

Actually, it is rational, reasonable, and wise people who choose to believe the gospel.

That can't be true, since all of the worlds greatest minds down the centuries and to this very day all reject the Gospel as foolishness. You will be hard pressed to name any great scientists who are believers, I can't thin k of any for that matter

 

[shrume]

That can't be true, since all of the worlds greatest minds down the centuries and to this very day all reject the Gospel as foolishness.

Not all of them. Not the wise ones.

You will be hard pressed to name any great scientists who are believers, I can't thin k of any for that matter

There are several. Try google.

 

[Danny1988]

Not all of them. Not the wise ones.


There are several. Try google.

There's no such thing as a believing scientist who holds to the accepted scientific position. The Bible contradicts their belief, so you are either a scientist who is approved by main stream science or a Christian. You can't have it both ways because they are vehemently opposed to each other.
Just in case you didn't know, all the highly intelligent scientists look down on believers as fools. They would never accept the Bible, because it doesn't make any sense to an intelligent person.
Only simple people can accept it because simple people don't critically analyze it as the intelligent people do, we are told to believe by faith because if we critically analyzed it we also wouldn't believe it because it doesn't make logical sense.

The scientific method is evidence based and it must be repeatable, our faith cannot be proven to anyone. We just believe because we have been told to believe and we just respond and obey without critical analysis, because we are sheep.

 

[carl11]

All are able to hear and learn. A lot of people choose not to.

But how can they hear knowing the fact that everybody before they have ever become saved are typified as a dead corpse with no life in them. Even yourself have admitted we were
dead before salvation.

 

[shrume]

There's no such thing as a believing scientist who holds to the accepted scientific position. The Bible contradicts their belief, so you are either a scientist who is approved by main stream science or a Christian. You can't have it both ways because they are vehemently opposed to each other.
Just in case you didn't know, all the highly intelligent scientists look down on believers as fools. They would never accept the Bible, because it doesn't make any sense to an intelligent person.
Only simple people can accept it because simple people don't critically analyze it as the intelligent people do, we are told to believe by faith because if we critically analyzed it we also wouldn't believe it because it doesn't make logical sense.

The scientific method is evidence based and it must be repeatable, our faith cannot be proven to anyone. We just believe because we have been told to believe and we just respond and obey without critical analysis, because we are sheep.

You are making a lot of assertions that are simply not true.

 

[shrume]

But how can they hear knowing the fact that everybody before they have ever become saved are typified as a dead corpse with no life in them. Even yourself have admitted we were
dead before salvation.

Unsaved people might be spiritually dead, but they are alive, and can hear the gospel, choose to believe it, and become saved (spiritually alive).

 

[Nehemiah6]

Unsaved people might be spiritually dead, but they are alive, and can hear the gospel, choose to believe it, and become saved (spiritually alive).

Exactly. Sinners can understand that they are sinners, and can also believe that Christ died for their sins, when the Gospel is preached, and the Holy Spirit does the convincing and convicting. See Acts 2.

 

[Danny1988]

You are making a lot of assertions that are simply not true.

It may not be true to you, but it's a fact. You only need to do a little research and you will find that it's absolutely true