Hello😀....Not to take away anything from a respected Theologian, but...
I personally sometimes have difficulty with acceptance of unqualified information sources made as blank open statements requiring one to presume accuracy especially if the information is a factual foundation or keystone of establishing a conclusion.
Obviously Jesus Christ possessed the ability to know whether " ( if we may call him so because a later writer discovered he wasn't and was an honest and respectable person )"......
Without source reference requires a leap of faith...😀
It may well be true and established fact but, it just isn't something conclusive I personally have had exposure to if it be so.....
It is an interesting consideration that I have contemplated just haven't sought an answer for....
Because it is a presumption that requires further qualification in absence of source reference.
It IMO without verification treads dangerously on waters of presumption. ....potentially unconfirmed but logically a keystone to arring at or deriving a conclusion.
The message would have improved depth measure and weight if it didn't require a supposition presumption of foundational fact.....
Either way I would still maintain God is Judge having the ability and insight to know the heart of all man in this case " the thief " and the authority and perspective of High Priest to make the on the spot determination.
We as common man absent divine enlightenment would not be capable of making such a determination.
Only grasping the concept as a potential possibility. And the whole concept opens the door to other questions.
1. Is coming to believe itself not a works of faith itself ?
2. If so then is it a works of God alone or does it not require our work of participation? .
3. Is faith itself not a continuation of works both within an without which requires practice and mutual interaction with God and others ?
4. If the thief be respectable or potentially righteous would even a works of repentance be expected of him.....?
5. Were not the recorded words of the thief alone a works of faith that have stood as everlasting testimony , that have witnessed to many of the merciful saving grace?
6. Which is a more powerful knowing him as a thief or respectable or not knowing at all ?
7. If he be only a thief does that send a dangerous conclusion to be made by the reckless who would conclude to wait to the last minute who might get told you never hung on a cross next to me And I never knew you?
8. To believe is to work to repent is it not....?
9. Which is a work of faith is it not?
10...Faith is a union in which we continue to practice work inwardly ourselves and allow God to work inwardly with us to make us able of outward works....is it not ?
11. If we are born under and into the curse of sin into a world full of sin with an unavoidable sinful flesh nature we must aspire to cast off and overcome then do we ever become 100 percent perfected and sanctified where faith is never a continuing works of repentance ? ( scripture-Christ says only the Father ....is ( ("Good" ) Christ rejected being called good probably due to being in a fleshly body nature. which tends to indicate a sinful nature of flesh.
12. I would presume if we were ever able to attain perfection in these temporary flesh....then people would be magicly dissappearing because God would spare them the first death ?
( but whom among the best of us has not had an impure thought ) ?
13...Be he thief or be he not, the thief ......has testified to the whole of the world!
Has he not ?
A grand works of witness and testimonial I would SAY!
14.....Many will condemn or argue against my next thought I will presume.....but
IMO.....You can not seperate the elements of faith....everyday you will read people going to great lengths of discourse to SEPERATE....
ARGUE.....PROVE...REPROVE...
seperation of faith elements.
Do you carry your good works forward with you like your bank account...do you reach a place where you have paid your accounts in full ?
What is the price of $alvation and eternal life....?
Is not each day a new day a new chance at doing what is right ....reclaiming your gifts and reworking them inwardly and outwardly with his blessing of his power working in you....whether it be for believing more or repenting a resurfaced memory of a past transgression the father might be using to do inwards workings ....?
Do we not reconfirm with works within each day....can we say that those aren't works of faith as well....
Who decides what the greater works are....?
If the Father do a greater works in you than you do outwardly in the world what makes anyone think they could ever repay him to begin with when no man can outgive God ....
To speculate the thief would even need to justify the merciful gift of Grace received from God himself divinely directly and in person by a works of faith.
I am sorry to tell you but it is to speculate.....
A BLASPHEMY......because God is God....what he sayssayssays......isisisis...IS!
If Christ said there is a thief or otherwise in Paradise then
That's where he is and there is no need to re-judge Gods judgment....second guess it or box God in and say hey God this thief needs to justify his salvation and faith by good works.....
IMHO....you shouldn't pursue or speculate this...
And I believe I have shewn how the thief did do a Grand works of faith on the whole world which testifies also that as I said you can not seperate as so many insist on doing the elements of Faith.
All praise and glory be to God our Father in the name of Jesus Christ our Savior!😀
I personally sometimes have difficulty with acceptance of unqualified information sources made as blank open statements requiring one to presume accuracy especially if the information is a factual foundation or keystone of establishing a conclusion.
Obviously Jesus Christ possessed the ability to know whether " ( if we may call him so because a later writer discovered he wasn't and was an honest and respectable person )"......
Without source reference requires a leap of faith...😀
It may well be true and established fact but, it just isn't something conclusive I personally have had exposure to if it be so.....
It is an interesting consideration that I have contemplated just haven't sought an answer for....
Because it is a presumption that requires further qualification in absence of source reference.
It IMO without verification treads dangerously on waters of presumption. ....potentially unconfirmed but logically a keystone to arring at or deriving a conclusion.
The message would have improved depth measure and weight if it didn't require a supposition presumption of foundational fact.....
Either way I would still maintain God is Judge having the ability and insight to know the heart of all man in this case " the thief " and the authority and perspective of High Priest to make the on the spot determination.
We as common man absent divine enlightenment would not be capable of making such a determination.
Only grasping the concept as a potential possibility. And the whole concept opens the door to other questions.
1. Is coming to believe itself not a works of faith itself ?
2. If so then is it a works of God alone or does it not require our work of participation? .
3. Is faith itself not a continuation of works both within an without which requires practice and mutual interaction with God and others ?
4. If the thief be respectable or potentially righteous would even a works of repentance be expected of him.....?
5. Were not the recorded words of the thief alone a works of faith that have stood as everlasting testimony , that have witnessed to many of the merciful saving grace?
6. Which is a more powerful knowing him as a thief or respectable or not knowing at all ?
7. If he be only a thief does that send a dangerous conclusion to be made by the reckless who would conclude to wait to the last minute who might get told you never hung on a cross next to me And I never knew you?
8. To believe is to work to repent is it not....?
9. Which is a work of faith is it not?
10...Faith is a union in which we continue to practice work inwardly ourselves and allow God to work inwardly with us to make us able of outward works....is it not ?
11. If we are born under and into the curse of sin into a world full of sin with an unavoidable sinful flesh nature we must aspire to cast off and overcome then do we ever become 100 percent perfected and sanctified where faith is never a continuing works of repentance ? ( scripture-Christ says only the Father ....is ( ("Good" ) Christ rejected being called good probably due to being in a fleshly body nature. which tends to indicate a sinful nature of flesh.
12. I would presume if we were ever able to attain perfection in these temporary flesh....then people would be magicly dissappearing because God would spare them the first death ?
( but whom among the best of us has not had an impure thought ) ?
13...Be he thief or be he not, the thief ......has testified to the whole of the world!
Has he not ?
A grand works of witness and testimonial I would SAY!
14.....Many will condemn or argue against my next thought I will presume.....but
IMO.....You can not seperate the elements of faith....everyday you will read people going to great lengths of discourse to SEPERATE....
ARGUE.....PROVE...REPROVE...
seperation of faith elements.
Do you carry your good works forward with you like your bank account...do you reach a place where you have paid your accounts in full ?
What is the price of $alvation and eternal life....?
Is not each day a new day a new chance at doing what is right ....reclaiming your gifts and reworking them inwardly and outwardly with his blessing of his power working in you....whether it be for believing more or repenting a resurfaced memory of a past transgression the father might be using to do inwards workings ....?
Do we not reconfirm with works within each day....can we say that those aren't works of faith as well....
Who decides what the greater works are....?
If the Father do a greater works in you than you do outwardly in the world what makes anyone think they could ever repay him to begin with when no man can outgive God ....
To speculate the thief would even need to justify the merciful gift of Grace received from God himself divinely directly and in person by a works of faith.
I am sorry to tell you but it is to speculate.....
A BLASPHEMY......because God is God....what he sayssayssays......isisisis...IS!
If Christ said there is a thief or otherwise in Paradise then
That's where he is and there is no need to re-judge Gods judgment....second guess it or box God in and say hey God this thief needs to justify his salvation and faith by good works.....
IMHO....you shouldn't pursue or speculate this...
And I believe I have shewn how the thief did do a Grand works of faith on the whole world which testifies also that as I said you can not seperate as so many insist on doing the elements of Faith.
All praise and glory be to God our Father in the name of Jesus Christ our Savior!😀
i wanted to say, i think you misunderstood Wesley here --
a man may be justified without them, as was the thief upon the cross (if we may call him so; for a late writer has discovered that he was no thief, but a very honest and respectable person!) but he cannot be justified without faith; this is impossible.
you can see where someone would put themselves in such a position - arguing that works accomplish salvation, or some physically manifested penitent life - where are the thief's works? i've met multiple people on CC over the years i have been here who say he must have been baptized before he was crucified, because those people have worked themselves into similar theological corners by holding this idea that regeneration occurs in the H2O and there's no salvation without it. for example.
so Wesley isn't saying the thief wasn't a thief. he's poking at some 'late writer' and talking about it as though it's an absurd conclusion.
the other thing i wanted to say is that this --
11. If we are born under and into the curse of sin into a world full of sin with an unavoidable sinful flesh nature we must aspire to cast off and overcome then do we ever become 100 percent perfected and sanctified where faith is never a continuing works of repentance ? ( scripture-Christ says only the Father ....is ( ("Good" ) Christ rejected being called good probably due to being in a fleshly body nature. which tends to indicate a sinful nature of flesh.
that's actually incredibly common and taught all over the place, and repeated by many people who also, i think, don't intend to blaspheme, but it is blasphemy.
Christ is God.
He is never 'not God'
God is good. He is always good.
Jesus is not saying He is not good. He calls Himself the Shepherd, the Good One.
He asks this man why he calls Him good, and declares that only God is good. this man had called Him teacher and asked about what works he could do to inherit life. this man did not believe Christ is God; Christ is correcting him, because knowledge of God - knowing Him, that He is God, that He is good - is eternal life. Jesus is simultaneously declaring Himself as who He is, answering this man's question, and teaching him.
God is not saying 'i am no good'
please think and pray about it
i mean you no harm at all
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