Justification has not come about because of anything believers are capable of achieving on their own

[reneweddaybyday]

Neither should we use Ephesians 2:8-9 as an excuse for not giving of our time, talent, and treasure to the poor and needy.

Those who stop at vs 9 need to continue to vs 10:

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The only "good works" we are capable of are the result of His workmanship in us ... so He even gets the glory in those works ... which is as it should be. To God be the glory.

 

[Blain]

James doesn't open it up for debate. He emphatically states:

What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but does not have works? Can this kind of faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacks daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm and eat well,” but you do not give them what the body needs, what good is it? 17 So also faith, if it does not have works, is dead being by itself. 18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith without works and I will show you faith by my works. 19 You believe that God is one; well and good. Even the demons believe that—and tremble with fear. James 2: 14-19.

Both sides work together, so there should be no debate at all. There are two very important points he is making here:

1. Works without faith will not save you

2. There is no evidence of your faith without works

It's a bit tricky, isn't it? On one hand, you have Paul emphatically stating in Ephesians 2:8-9 that you cannot be saved through works. But then you have James very forcefully telling us that faith without works is dead. it seems contradictory, doesn't it?

I agree with the commentary of Thomas Constable and others who agree that James wasn't even talking about salvation here. He was merely stating that even though we are saved by faith, we are pretty useless to God if we don't do anything with it. It becomes a "dead" faith.

We should never let James 2: 14-19 be an excuse to try and save ourselves by merely working through charity organizations.

Neither should we use Ephesians 2:8-9 as an excuse for not giving of our time, talent, and treasure to the poor and needy.

I agree completely where were you a few years ago when a certain works passion flooded the forums it was a headache 😂

 

[Blain]

Of course I also did not intend on making this a work vs faith thread but it just confuses me how people can dissect a simple matter into a complicated situation it’s quite skillful actually

 

[DorothyMae]

If not better than Peterlag ... at least better than what Peterlag allows that you understand.

I understand the excitement about discussion of our walk in the Spirit ... which is the same as saying we abide in the Lord Jesus Christ and the same as our putting on the new man ... this lifestyle is so dynamic and wonderful. And we could be having an ongoing and uplifting discussion on this issue, but some are in denial as to the subtlety of the workings of our flesh and how we are drawn away.

Just because we are drawn away does not mean we are living in sin. it just means we have taken our focus off of the Lord Jesus Christ and that is when we need to turn back to the Lord Jesus Christ, put off the old where we can be enticed to sin ... put on the new where we are able to overcome (and not fulfill) the lusts of the flesh.

He’s not the first one I met with these views. I’ve been walking with the Lord since my youth or even childhood to some degree. My excitement is more from the relationship and less from salvation at this point.

 

[DesertWanderer]

Of course I also did not intend on making this a work vs faith thread but it just confuses me how people can dissect a simple matter into a complicated situation it’s quite skillful actually

I understand how you feel. But I go back to my point of how Paul and James can seem to contradict each other. But it is James who really underscores Pauls's point in Ephesians Chapter 2.

To your point, making things complicated is within our fallen nature. That may be why we have so many church denominations. But unfortunately, it is also the basis for humanism, in my estimation.

 

[DorothyMae]

I understand how you feel. But I go back to my point of how Paul and James can seem to contradict each other. But it is James who really underscores Pauls's point in Ephesians Chapter 2.

To your point, making things complicated is within our fallen nature. That may be why we have so many church denominations. But unfortunately, it is also the basis for humanism, in my estimation.

I think the matter becomes clearer if those discussing would specify what they mean by “works.”

If the “works don’t add to salvation” would specify what they mean like “helping old ladies across the street doesn’t add to salvation” the other side would agree.

If the “faith without works is dead” bunch would say they mean faith without prayer, reading the Word of God and meeting with other Christians is dead or will die, some of the other side might agree.

 

[DesertWanderer]

I think the matter becomes clearer if those discussing would specify what they mean by “works.”

If the “works don’t add to salvation” would specify what they mean like “helping old ladies across the street doesn’t add to salvation” the other side would agree.

If the “faith without works is dead” bunch would say they mean faith without prayer, reading the Word of God and meeting with other Christians is dead or will die, some of the other side might agree.

Why do we have to "choose sides?"

James doesn't open it up for debate. He emphatically states:

What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but does not have works? Can this kind of faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacks daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm and eat well,” but you do not give them what the body needs, what good is it? 17 So also faith, if it does not have works, is dead being by itself. 18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith without works and I will show you faith by my works. 19 You believe that God is one; well and good. Even the demons believe that—and tremble with fear. James 2: 14-19.

Both sides work together, so there should be no debate at all. There are two very important points he is making here:

1. Works without faith will not save you

2. There is no evidence of your faith without works

It's a bit tricky, isn't it? On one hand, you have Paul emphatically stating in Ephesians 2:8-9 that you cannot be saved through works. But then you have James very forcefully telling us that faith without works is dead. it seems contradictory, doesn't it?

I agree with the commentary of Thomas Constable and others who agree that James wasn't even talking about salvation here. He was merely stating that even though we are saved by faith, we are pretty useless to God if we don't do anything with it. It becomes a "dead" faith.

We should never let James 2: 14-19 be an excuse to try and save ourselves by merely working through charity organizations.

Neither should we use Ephesians 2:8-9 as an excuse for not giving of our time, talent, and treasure to the poor and needy.

 

[DorothyMae]

Why do we have to "choose sides?"

James doesn't open it up for debate. He emphatically states:

What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but does not have works? Can this kind of faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacks daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm and eat well,” but you do not give them what the body needs, what good is it? 17 So also faith, if it does not have works, is dead being by itself. 18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith without works and I will show you faith by my works. 19 You believe that God is one; well and good. Even the demons believe that—and tremble with fear. James 2: 14-19.

Both sides work together, so there should be no debate at all. There are two very important points he is making here:

1. Works without faith will not save you

2. There is no evidence of your faith without works

It's a bit tricky, isn't it? On one hand, you have Paul emphatically stating in Ephesians 2:8-9 that you cannot be saved through works. But then you have James very forcefully telling us that faith without works is dead. it seems contradictory, doesn't it?

I agree with the commentary of Thomas Constable and others who agree that James wasn't even talking about salvation here. He was merely stating that even though we are saved by faith, we are pretty useless to God if we don't do anything with it. It becomes a "dead" faith.

We should never let James 2: 14-19 be an excuse to try and save ourselves by merely working through charity organizations.

Neither should we use Ephesians 2:8-9 as an excuse for not giving of our time, talent, and treasure to the poor and needy.

If a faith is dead and we are saved by faith alone, then the salvation that was is dead too.

The point is faith needs to be more than mentally agreeing to believe in God or believe you are saved. It needs to work in our hearts and be obvious in our choices. It’s like love in a marriage. If the one claiming he/she loves their spouse but has no works that fit that claim, the love that once was there is dead.

 

[mailmandan]

James doesn't open it up for debate. He emphatically states:

What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but does not have works? Can this kind of faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacks daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm and eat well,” but you do not give them what the body needs, what good is it? 17 So also faith, if it does not have works, is dead being by itself. 18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith without works and I will show you faith by my works. 19 You believe that God is one; well and good. Even the demons believe that—and tremble with fear. James 2: 14-19.

Both sides work together, so there should be no debate at all. There are two very important points he is making here:

1. Works without faith will not save you

2. There is no evidence of your faith without works

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

I think we would agree that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*

 

[reneweddaybyday]

He’s not the first one I met with these views. I’ve been walking with the Lord since my youth or even childhood to some degree. My excitement is more from the relationship and less from salvation at this point.

Yeah, I can understand that. The ongoing relationship is vital to us. One of my favorite verses is Psalm 16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

I always want to have the presence of the Lord in my life. And we know from Scripture that He does not leave us ... we are the ones who leave as we are drawn away from Him. And how this happens is so subtle. And yet, the instant we realize we have been drawn away, when we turn our hearts back to Him, He is always there. That is so amazing to me!

That is my whole point with Peterlag. None of us ... including himself (aka Peterlag) walks in this life perfectly perfect 24/7. And God made provision for our shortcomings so that the relationship can be restored ... because He knows our frame and remembers that we are dust. To acknowledge that we are flesh ... and that we are weak in our flesh ... does not mean that we do not walk in the Spirit. To me, it means that we embrace all that God formed, made, created. That is how God made us and He loves us as His dear children. We cannot hide anything from God and when we deny the existence of that weakest part of ourselves, God sees through that. He knows every time we have stepped away from Him ... even if we do not acknowledge that has occurred (i.e. we deceive ourselves).