Justification

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Dec 12, 2013
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#2
Justification is by faith alone or faith plus works?
This can be summed up in the following manner....

Paul, in Romans states clearly that a man is justified before God by faith without the works/deeds of the law.

James, in James states clearly that the above faith that justifies a man before God without the works/deeds of the law can be seen by men based upon our works

We are saved, justified, sanctified positionally and sealed in Christ eternally by faith and faith alone.

MANY conflate salvation/justification with ongoing sanctification into a false gospel of faith plus works to gain, keep, maintain, top off or embellish a losable salvation which is false.

We have been saved/justified eternally by the irrevocable gift of eternal life, born again of incorruptible seed, sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, saved to the uttermost and kept by the power of God through the faith that Jesus begins, finishes and completes in us. He promises to never leave us and or forsake us and after salvation we are dealt with as children and sometimes whipped for disobedience, but NOT cast away.......

Those who say we can walk away and lose faith to the extent of losing salvation state clearly that JESUS does not finish and complete that which he begins while denying that if be believe not (after belief) he abides faithful to his promises and cannot deny HIMSELF....His righteousness has been IMPUTED by faith to our account.....!!
 
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Tim416

Guest
#4
According to Jesus(hope it is ok to state what he said) in the parable of the sower, people made a shallow commitment, and set out on the path. They must have been in a saved state to do so. When trials and persecutions came, they walked away from the faith. Clearly they had salvation and lost it. However, in the third example of the sower, people kept getting sidetracked by worldly things, Jesus did not say they lost their salvation, but rather they did not mature in the faith, for you mature by practicing doing right from wrong. So if Jesus was not a legalist, and understood the truth, salvation can be lost. In my view, it depends on the commitment made at conversion
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#5
According to Jesus(hope it is ok to state what he said) in the parable of the sower, people made a shallow commitment, and set out on the path. They must have been in a saved state to do so. When trials and persecutions came, they walked away from the faith. Clearly they had salvation and lost it. However, in the third example of the sower, people kept getting sidetracked by worldly things, Jesus did not say they lost their salvation, but rather they did not mature in the faith, for you mature by practicing doing right from wrong. So if Jesus was not a legalist, and understood the truth, salvation can be lost. In my view, it depends on the commitment made at conversion
False............
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#7
I simply repeated what Jesus stated.
No you did not...you embellished it to include the "They lost salvation" farce.....cut and paste where Jesus said they lost salvation.....we will all wait...even though you say he did not say that you embellished it with your own opinion....
 
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Tim416

Guest
#8
No you did not...you embellished it to include the "They lost salvation" farce.....cut and paste where Jesus said they lost salvation.....we will all wait.
So you believe in faith plus works? Jesus said people accepted the message with joy, and set out on the Christian path. They must have been in a saved state to do so according to your theology. Then, Jesus stated when trials and persecutions came they walked away. What have I stated falsely here? Please tell me. You cannot ignore Jesus words in order to cherry pick verses that suit your own particular theology.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#9
So you believe in faith plus works? Jesus said people accepted the message with joy, and set out on the Christian path. They must have been in a saved state to do so according to your theology. Then, Jesus stated when trials and persecutions came they walked away. What have I stated falsely here? Please tell me. You cannot ignore Jesus words in order to cherry pick verse that suit your own particular theology.
You must be dense after reading my first post in this thread if you think I believe in faith plus anything for salvation.....and again YOU embellished it not me.......the bible is clear.....eternal life <---the gifts and calling of God are IRREVOCABLE.....I suggest you look that word up and open the peeps...

Show a verse which states they lost salvation........even the 70 that walked away due to a hard message they could not bear <---- JESUS said to rejoice that their names were written were exactly?

Salvation that can be lost is not a salvation that the bible portrays....
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#10
Justification is never before men. Justification is always before God.
 
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Tim416

Guest
#11
You must be dense after reading my first post in this thread if you think I believe in faith plus anything for salvation.....and again YOU embellished it not me.......the bible is clear.....eternal life <---the gifts and calling of God are IRREVOCABLE.....I suggest you look that word up and open the peeps...

Show a verse which states they lost salvation........even the 70 that walked away due to a hard message they could not bear <---- JESUS said to rejoice that their names were written were exactly?

Salvation that can be lost is not a salvation that the bible portrays....
Chriastian immaturity is show by those who c herry pick selective verses of scripture that suits them. You have to read the bible as one cohesive whole. I gave you the words of Christ, and you refuse to accept them. Sobeit
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#12
Chriastian immaturity is show by those who c herry pick selective verses of scripture that suits them. You have to read the bible as one cohesive whole. I gave you the words of Christ, and you refuse to accept them. Sobeit
Now you accuse......keep thinking what you want pal....all you did was quote one parable that does not say anyone lost salvation....seems to me your own boot fits your own foot.....!!!
 
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Tim416

Guest
#13
Now you accuse......keep thinking what you want pal....all you did was quote one parable that does not say anyone lost salvation....seems to me your own boot fits your own foot.....!!!
Amazing, Jesus said they walked away from the faith, they are His words not mine. I will leave you with the last word, you carry on. But I will repeat. Those who cherry pick selective scriptures to form their beliefs are NOT mature in the faith
 

FlyingDove

Senior Member
Dec 27, 2017
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#14
Justification is by faith alone or faith plus works?
Hello nnrukshan15,

KJV Dictionary Definition: justify
In theology, remission of sin and absolution from guilt and punishment; or an act of free grace by which God pardons the sinner and accepts him as righteous, on account of the atonement of Christ.

(NOTE: Believers are JUSTIFIED = Judicially Declared RIGHTEOUS by God. Thru/By, Belief/Faith, placed in Jesus FINISHED sacrificial sin atoning redemptive work. We become justified, sinless, in Gods eyes, the "MOMENT" we believe in Christ's sin payment & resurrection.

God see us as perfect because of """Christ's faithful sinless redemptive work""" done on/in our behalf. Our faith placed in Christ’s finished redemptive work & resurrection that washed/removed ALL of our sin Rev 1:5.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words: justification

denotes "the act of pronouncing righteous, justification, acquittal;" That God "justifies" the believing sinner on the ground of Christ's death, involves His free gift of life

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
(NOTE: Bleievers are: Justified = Declared Righteous by God. By the grace of God, thru faith in Christ's redemptive work)

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
(NOTE: Believers are Justified = Declared Righteous by God. By/Thru Faith)

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
(NOTE: Believers are Justified = Declared Righteous by God. Thru the Faith of & Faith in Christ)

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
(NOTE: Thru Belief/Faith in Christ's sin payment; is how God: Justifies = Declares us Righteous)

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
(NOTE: Believers are Justified = Declared Righteous by God. By/Thru Faith)

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
(NOTE: Believers are Justified = Declared Righteous by God. By/Thru Faith)

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
(NOTE: If you think you can Justification/righteousness thru law keeping. YOU'VE BEEN DECEIVED!)

Believers are JUSTIFIED = Judicially Declared RIGHTEOUS by God. Thru/By our Belief/Faith placed in Jesus FINISHED sacrificial sin atoning redemptive work. Found in Christ's death (sins due wage, paid in full) & resurrection (God's receipt, sins payment received & accepted) MOO!
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#15
Amazing, Jesus said they walked away from the faith, they are His words not mine. I will leave you with the last word, you carry on. But I will repeat. Those who cherry pick selective scriptures to form their beliefs are NOT mature in the faith
I do not cherry pick verses, you have no clue how I come to conclusions and your accusations are idiotic........anything else......??
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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#16
According to Jesus(hope it is ok to state what he said) in the parable of the sower, people made a shallow commitment, and set out on the path. They must have been in a saved state to do so. When trials and persecutions came, they walked away from the faith. Clearly they had salvation and lost it. However, in the third example of the sower, people kept getting sidetracked by worldly things, Jesus did not say they lost their salvation, but rather they did not mature in the faith, for you mature by practicing doing right from wrong. So if Jesus was not a legalist, and understood the truth, salvation can be lost. In my view, it depends on the commitment made at conversion
“Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him.

I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

BTW....Judas was never saved. Why?

And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
 
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Tim416

Guest
#17
“Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him.

I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

BTW....Judas was never saved. Why?

And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
Great verses. But Jesus said people who set out on the Christian path walked away from the faith. How long does it take for a person to be in saved state according to you? Do they have to do works first? If not, the people mentioned in the second example of the sower walked away from the salvation they had. Those in the third example, kept getting sidetracked by worldly things, but Jesus did not say they walked away, rather they did not mature.
I would say time to put your thinking hat on, but only one can lead you into spiritual truth
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
7,484
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#18
Great verses. But Jesus said people who set out on the Christian path walked away from the faith. How long does it take for a person to be in saved state according to you? Do they have to do works first? If not, the people mentioned in the second example of the sower walked away from the salvation they had. Those in the third example, kept getting sidetracked by worldly things, but Jesus did not say they walked away, rather they did not mature.
I would say time to put your thinking hat on, but only one can lead you into spiritual truth
Those vicissitudes fail to answer the question: is God Almighty capable of error, loss, defeat or treachery? Impossible. As to the Parable of the Soils (yes, parable of the Soils), ultimately it is a question of belief. I can discern and recognize tons of supposed Christians who, in their heart, DO NOT BELIVE. For example Joel Osteen, Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn, most of TNN, many many others. Listen to their preaching. Do they know Christ Jesus and proclaim his Word and keep It? Not a chance.

“I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word."

They are frauds, fakes, false prophets. Just like Judas. In it for the money, the title, the prestige, the kingdom of this present age.
 

MattforJesus

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
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#19
Justification is by faith alone or faith plus works?
Many people to not understand when Paul is speaking according to the flesh, and the Spirit.

We are saved by faith when we first confess Christ, for that is all we can do for we do not receive the Spirit until after we confess Christ, which we are in the flesh when we confess Christ, although we could not come to the truth unless God operated in our life, for no person calls Jesus the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost, and no person comes to the Son unless the Father draws them.

So we are saved by faith for we were in the flesh when we confessed Christ, so none of our works could save us while we were in the flesh.

So Paul is speaking when we were in the flesh when we first confessed Christ, and believed.

But many people want to carry that belief, faith alone, throughout their walk with God, which is not right.

The Bible says out of faith, hope, and charity, love in action, charity is the greatest, and faith, and hope are not needed in heaven, but love will go on forever.

Love is greater than faith, and the Bible says faith works by love, and the Bible says it is the work of faith, for everything we think, and do, is a work, which is why Jesus said if you lust after a woman it is the same as if you did the physical act.

Charity is not selfish, not arrogant, does not think they are better than other people, which God said if you think you are something when you are nothing, you deceive your self, and what makes you to differ from another person, does not behave itself unseemly, does not think an evil thought, and does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth to abstain from sins by the Spirit, and only goes by their needs, and helps the poor and needy if possible where ever they have a need.

Love works no ill towards their neighbor, therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

The Bible says that some people have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof, from such turn away, ever learning but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth, for they think they are alright with God despite their sins, and are lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God.

Which the Lord knows them that are His having this seal, for this is what seals the saints, and how they are led of the Spirit, that every one that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity, and awake to righteousness, but some have not the knowledge of God.

It is love alone, and everything stems from love including faith, for faith works by love.

That means if you lack love in the proper perspective as God tells us, then faith does not apply in your life, and we are saved by grace through faith, so if your faith lacks then grace lacks.

Paul said he can have all faith so that he could remove mountains, but if he did not have charity he is nothing.

And said that people that preach that God blesses with money for their wants, the prosperity Gospel, to withdraw yourselves from them, having food and clothing be content, for the love of money is the root of all evil for it neglects the poor and needy, which they have erred from the faith.

So Paul said if you do not have charity, love in action, works, then your faith does not count in your life.

James said if they do not have charity, which he pointed out caring about the poor and needy, the same as Paul, then their faith is dead.

So Paul and James say the same thing, have charity, which has to be works, love in action, or faith is dead, for the saints are no longer in the flesh where those works do not save, but in the Spirit where they have to do the works of the Spirit to be saved.

So people have been arguing over Paul and James, and they say the same thing, and why would they not say the same thing, for they are both New Testament writers, and some people will argue over Jesus and Paul.

For if they do not do those works then they do not love properly, so their faith does not count, for love is greater than faith.

And we see many that claim Christ that hold unto sin, and think they are right with God, saying they cannot abstain from sins, and sin does not affect their relationship with God.

But the Bible says that if a person hates sin, and does not want sin, by the Spirit they can abstain from sins.

But some have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof, and are ever learning but never able to come to the truth, for they will not let go of the flesh but then make excuses.

John said if they do not have charity, which he pointed out caring about the poor and needy, the same as Paul and James, then the love of God does not dwell in them, for God loves people, so do not love in word, and tongue, but love in deed, works, and truth.

Love has to be done in works for it to be valid in your life, and love is greater than faith, and that is why we have to have works to have salvation.

Which we know there are millions of hypocrites claiming Christ, and holding unto sin, and think they are right with God, and enjoy worldliness, and the prosperity Gospel, which neglects the poor and needy, and God only blesses us with our needs.

Paul is speaking according to us being in the flesh when we first come to Christ so it can only be by faith that we can start to have a relationship with God, for works of the flesh cannot save us.

Then Paul is speaking according to us being spiritual after we are saved that we have to have works of love, for love is greater than faith, and without love which has to be in works then our faith dead.

Because to have faith you have to have it according to the proper perspective that God is holy, and said be holy for I am holy, and hates sin, and said sin separates us from Him, which is why love does not think an evil thought, and abstains from sin by the Spirit.

And God's kingdom is true love, so we have to have charity, works of love, to have salvation, and why people without charity have erred from the faith.

But if some people have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof, and ever learning but never able to come to the knowledge of of the truth, it would appear that they were not saved.

All the while they are arguing with people with their relaxed version of Christianity.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#20
Those vicissitudes fail to answer the question: is God Almighty capable of error, loss, defeat or treachery? Impossible. As to the Parable of the Soils (yes, parable of the Soils), ultimately it is a question of belief. I can discern and recognize tons of supposed Christians who, in their heart, DO NOT BELIVE. For example Joel Osteen, Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn, most of TNN, many many others. Listen to their preaching. Do they know Christ Jesus and proclaim his Word and keep It? Not a chance.

“I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word."

They are frauds, fakes, false prophets. Just like Judas. In it for the money, the title, the prestige, the kingdom of this present age.
My view is the bible is clear....within the ranks of those that are genuinely saved you have the following...

a. Those that are faithful over many things
b. Those who teach but do not do and are called least in the kingdom, yet IN THE KINGDOM
c. Those who are immature, weak and easily offended as children YET SAVED
d. Those who are saved yet worldly and bear little or stunted fruit
e. Those saved so as by fire with EVERY work burnt to a crisp
f. Those like the thief on the cross with NO works yet saving faith

The parable of the soils in my view contains evidences of all of the above including those who her the word, reject it and were NEVER SAVED........

Why are children chastened? and note GOD only whips children........and as far as losing faith....if one is saved by faith, my bible states clearly that JESUS sill FINISH and COMPLETE said faith...........and he will LOSE NOTHING and leave the 99 to find the ONE that walked off or wandered away........