Justification

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T

Tim416

Guest
#21
Those vicissitudes fail to answer the question: is God Almighty capable of error, loss, defeat or treachery? Impossible. As to the Parable of the Soils (yes, parable of the Soils), ultimately it is a question of belief. I can discern and recognize tons of supposed Christians who, in their heart, DO NOT BELIVE. For example Joel Osteen, Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn, most of TNN, many many others. Listen to their preaching. Do they know Christ Jesus and proclaim his Word and keep It? Not a chance.

“I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word."

They are frauds, fakes, false prophets. Just like Judas. In it for the money, the title, the prestige, the kingdom of this present age.
You tell me if Jesus was capable of error. I just repeated his words
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
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#22
Many people to not understand when Paul is speaking according to the flesh, and the Spirit.

We are saved by faith when we first confess Christ, for that is all we can do for we do not receive the Spirit until after we confess Christ, which we are in the flesh when we confess Christ, although we could not come to the truth unless God operated in our life, for no person calls Jesus the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost, and no person comes to the Son unless the Father draws them.

So we are saved by faith for we were in the flesh when we confessed Christ, so none of our works could save us while we were in the flesh.

So Paul is speaking when we were in the flesh when we first confessed Christ, and believed.

But many people want to carry that belief, faith alone, throughout their walk with God, which is not right.

The Bible says out of faith, hope, and charity, love in action, charity is the greatest, and faith, and hope are not needed in heaven, but love will go on forever.

Love is greater than faith, and the Bible says faith works by love, and the Bible says it is the work of faith, for everything we think, and do, is a work, which is why Jesus said if you lust after a woman it is the same as if you did the physical act.

Charity is not selfish, not arrogant, does not think they are better than other people, which God said if you think you are something when you are nothing, you deceive your self, and what makes you to differ from another person, does not behave itself unseemly, does not think an evil thought, and does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth to abstain from sins by the Spirit, and only goes by their needs, and helps the poor and needy if possible where ever they have a need.

Love works no ill towards their neighbor, therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

The Bible says that some people have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof, from such turn away, ever learning but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth, for they think they are alright with God despite their sins, and are lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God.

Which the Lord knows them that are His having this seal, for this is what seals the saints, and how they are led of the Spirit, that every one that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity, and awake to righteousness, but some have not the knowledge of God.

It is love alone, and everything stems from love including faith, for faith works by love.

That means if you lack love in the proper perspective as God tells us, then faith does not apply in your life, and we are saved by grace through faith, so if your faith lacks then grace lacks.

Paul said he can have all faith so that he could remove mountains, but if he did not have charity he is nothing.

And said that people that preach that God blesses with money for their wants, the prosperity Gospel, to withdraw yourselves from them, having food and clothing be content, for the love of money is the root of all evil for it neglects the poor and needy, which they have erred from the faith.

So Paul said if you do not have charity, love in action, works, then your faith does not count in your life.

James said if they do not have charity, which he pointed out caring about the poor and needy, the same as Paul, then their faith is dead.

So Paul and James say the same thing, have charity, which has to be works, love in action, or faith is dead, for the saints are no longer in the flesh where those works do not save, but in the Spirit where they have to do the works of the Spirit to be saved.

So people have been arguing over Paul and James, and they say the same thing, and why would they not say the same thing, for they are both New Testament writers, and some people will argue over Jesus and Paul.

For if they do not do those works then they do not love properly, so their faith does not count, for love is greater than faith.

And we see many that claim Christ that hold unto sin, and think they are right with God, saying they cannot abstain from sins, and sin does not affect their relationship with God.

But the Bible says that if a person hates sin, and does not want sin, by the Spirit they can abstain from sins.

But some have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof, and are ever learning but never able to come to the truth, for they will not let go of the flesh but then make excuses.

John said if they do not have charity, which he pointed out caring about the poor and needy, the same as Paul and James, then the love of God does not dwell in them, for God loves people, so do not love in word, and tongue, but love in deed, works, and truth.

Love has to be done in works for it to be valid in your life, and love is greater than faith, and that is why we have to have works to have salvation.

Which we know there are millions of hypocrites claiming Christ, and holding unto sin, and think they are right with God, and enjoy worldliness, and the prosperity Gospel, which neglects the poor and needy, and God only blesses us with our needs.

Paul is speaking according to us being in the flesh when we first come to Christ so it can only be by faith that we can start to have a relationship with God, for works of the flesh cannot save us.

Then Paul is speaking according to us being spiritual after we are saved that we have to have works of love, for love is greater than faith, and without love which has to be in works then our faith dead.

Because to have faith you have to have it according to the proper perspective that God is holy, and said be holy for I am holy, and hates sin, and said sin separates us from Him, which is why love does not think an evil thought, and abstains from sin by the Spirit.

And God's kingdom is true love, so we have to have charity, works of love, to have salvation, and why people without charity have erred from the faith.

But if some people have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof, and ever learning but never able to come to the knowledge of of the truth, it would appear that they were not saved.

All the while they are arguing with people with their relaxed version of Christianity.
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds/works of the law. <----the simplicity found in Christ as opposed to your wall of text which conflates numerous issues and did not answer the question.......
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
5,405
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#23
My view is the bible is clear....within the ranks of those that are genuinely saved you have the following...

a. Those that are faithful over many things
b. Those who teach but do not do and are called least in the kingdom, yet IN THE KINGDOM
c. Those who are immature, weak and easily offended as children YET SAVED
d. Those who are saved yet worldly and bear little or stunted fruit
e. Those saved so as by fire with EVERY work burnt to a crisp
f. Those like the thief on the cross with NO works yet saving faith

The parable of the soils in my view contains evidences of all of the above including those who her the word, reject it and were NEVER SAVED........

Why are children chastened? and note GOD only whips children........and as far as losing faith....if one is saved by faith, my bible states clearly that JESUS sill FINISH and COMPLETE said faith...........and he will LOSE NOTHING and leave the 99 to find the ONE that walked off or wandered away........
Oh I agree with all of that. But let me draw the distinction between professors and legitimate proclaimers. Professing but not believing is fatal IMO. False prophets are known by their fruit, and given the nature of their transgression ARE NOT SAVED. They are actually unconverted career criminals destined for the worst of all judgments.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
5,405
2,648
113
#24
Many people to not understand when Paul is speaking according to the flesh, and the Spirit.

We are saved by faith when we first confess Christ, for that is all we can do for we do not receive the Spirit until after we confess Christ, which we are in the flesh when we confess Christ, although we could not come to the truth unless God operated in our life, for no person calls Jesus the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost, and no person comes to the Son unless the Father draws them.

So we are saved by faith for we were in the flesh when we confessed Christ, so none of our works could save us while we were in the flesh.

So Paul is speaking when we were in the flesh when we first confessed Christ, and believed.

But many people want to carry that belief, faith alone, throughout their walk with God, which is not right.

The Bible says out of faith, hope, and charity, love in action, charity is the greatest, and faith, and hope are not needed in heaven, but love will go on forever.

Love is greater than faith, and the Bible says faith works by love, and the Bible says it is the work of faith, for everything we think, and do, is a work, which is why Jesus said if you lust after a woman it is the same as if you did the physical act.

Charity is not selfish, not arrogant, does not think they are better than other people, which God said if you think you are something when you are nothing, you deceive your self, and what makes you to differ from another person, does not behave itself unseemly, does not think an evil thought, and does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth to abstain from sins by the Spirit, and only goes by their needs, and helps the poor and needy if possible where ever they have a need.

Love works no ill towards their neighbor, therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

The Bible says that some people have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof, from such turn away, ever learning but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth, for they think they are alright with God despite their sins, and are lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God.

Which the Lord knows them that are His having this seal, for this is what seals the saints, and how they are led of the Spirit, that every one that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity, and awake to righteousness, but some have not the knowledge of God.

It is love alone, and everything stems from love including faith, for faith works by love.

That means if you lack love in the proper perspective as God tells us, then faith does not apply in your life, and we are saved by grace through faith, so if your faith lacks then grace lacks.

Paul said he can have all faith so that he could remove mountains, but if he did not have charity he is nothing.

And said that people that preach that God blesses with money for their wants, the prosperity Gospel, to withdraw yourselves from them, having food and clothing be content, for the love of money is the root of all evil for it neglects the poor and needy, which they have erred from the faith.

So Paul said if you do not have charity, love in action, works, then your faith does not count in your life.

James said if they do not have charity, which he pointed out caring about the poor and needy, the same as Paul, then their faith is dead.

So Paul and James say the same thing, have charity, which has to be works, love in action, or faith is dead, for the saints are no longer in the flesh where those works do not save, but in the Spirit where they have to do the works of the Spirit to be saved.

So people have been arguing over Paul and James, and they say the same thing, and why would they not say the same thing, for they are both New Testament writers, and some people will argue over Jesus and Paul.

For if they do not do those works then they do not love properly, so their faith does not count, for love is greater than faith.

And we see many that claim Christ that hold unto sin, and think they are right with God, saying they cannot abstain from sins, and sin does not affect their relationship with God.

But the Bible says that if a person hates sin, and does not want sin, by the Spirit they can abstain from sins.

But some have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof, and are ever learning but never able to come to the truth, for they will not let go of the flesh but then make excuses.

John said if they do not have charity, which he pointed out caring about the poor and needy, the same as Paul and James, then the love of God does not dwell in them, for God loves people, so do not love in word, and tongue, but love in deed, works, and truth.

Love has to be done in works for it to be valid in your life, and love is greater than faith, and that is why we have to have works to have salvation.

Which we know there are millions of hypocrites claiming Christ, and holding unto sin, and think they are right with God, and enjoy worldliness, and the prosperity Gospel, which neglects the poor and needy, and God only blesses us with our needs.

Paul is speaking according to us being in the flesh when we first come to Christ so it can only be by faith that we can start to have a relationship with God, for works of the flesh cannot save us.

Then Paul is speaking according to us being spiritual after we are saved that we have to have works of love, for love is greater than faith, and without love which has to be in works then our faith dead.

Because to have faith you have to have it according to the proper perspective that God is holy, and said be holy for I am holy, and hates sin, and said sin separates us from Him, which is why love does not think an evil thought, and abstains from sin by the Spirit.

And God's kingdom is true love, so we have to have charity, works of love, to have salvation, and why people without charity have erred from the faith.

But if some people have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof, and ever learning but never able to come to the knowledge of of the truth, it would appear that they were not saved.

All the while they are arguing with people with their relaxed version of Christianity.
Those who recoginize Christ Jesus for Who He really is and love Him because of that are saved.

Simple.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#25
Oh I agree with all of that. But let me draw the distinction between professors and legitimate proclaimers. Professing but not believing is fatal IMO. False prophets are known by their fruit, and given the nature of their transgression ARE NOT SAVED. They are actually unconverted career criminals destined for the worst of all judgments.
Great point, therefore justification before men is not possible. Only before the Lord are we justified.
 

FlyingDove

Senior Member
Dec 27, 2017
882
295
63
#26
According to Jesus(hope it is ok to state what he said) in the parable of the sower, people made a shallow commitment, and set out on the path. They must have been in a saved state to do so. When trials and persecutions came, they walked away from the faith. Clearly they had salvation and lost it. However, in the third example of the sower, people kept getting sidetracked by worldly things, Jesus did not say they lost their salvation, but rather they did not mature in the faith, for you mature by practicing doing right from wrong. So if Jesus was not a legalist, and understood the truth, salvation can be lost. In my view, it depends on the commitment made at conversion
Hi Tim,

A different perspective on the sower parable

John 12:32 Jesus said, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
(NOTE: We know Jesus was lifted up on the cross. Christ the sower, said he, will draw ALL men. Unfortunately NOT All men will believe)

Mark 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost. Also see Matt 3:11
(NOTE: Only Christ can baptize/seal with the Holy Spirit.)

Only God/Christ knows the true heart of a person. He knows the one's that will ultimately choose the creature over the Creator. Having said that, scripture is clear. Once Christ places/baptizes a person with the Holy Spirit. That person is forever SEALED Eph 1:13, 2 Cor 1:22 & Eph 4:30. And no sin (JESUS PAID FOR ALL SIN) can remove us from his loving hand Lk 4:10, Jn 10:28)

Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
(NOTE: The Holy Spirit is a gift Acts 1:4, 2:38, 8:20, 10:45, 11,17 & God doesn't take back gifts. A gifts is given, not earned. However, a gift can be refused)

These seeds that perish were never saved.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,393
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#27
Oh I agree with all of that. But let me draw the distinction between professors and legitimate proclaimers. Professing but not believing is fatal IMO. False prophets are known by their fruit, and given the nature of their transgression ARE NOT SAVED. They are actually unconverted career criminals destined for the worst of all judgments.

Of course....The plenteous in number will say....

Lord, Lord have we not done..........<-----they were fakes, frauds and trusted into a cafe blend false gospel.....
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
8,793
3,232
113
#28
Justification is by faith alone or faith plus works?
It is faith in Jesus finished work on the cross, paying for your sins. Often people say 'justified' meaning 'just as if had never sinned'.

Sanctification is God working in you via the holy spirit. COs you are his workmanship created for good works.

The two go hand in hand but justification comes first and you need to grasp that before becoming sanctified. God wants to set you apart to become holy and perfect just like Him. To reflect His glory and thats an ongoing process. We cannot be sanctified without the holy spirit that is the gift of salvation.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
5,405
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113
#29
Good thread going on here thanks everyone for your contributions.
 
T

Tim416

Guest
#30
Hi Tim,

A different perspective on the sower parable

John 12:32 Jesus said, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
(NOTE: We know Jesus was lifted up on the cross. Christ the sower, said he, will draw ALL men. Unfortunately NOT All men will believe)

Mark 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost. Also see Matt 3:11
(NOTE: Only Christ can baptize/seal with the Holy Spirit.)

Only God/Christ knows the true heart of a person. He knows the one's that will ultimately choose the creature over the Creator. Having said that, scripture is clear. Once Christ places/baptizes a person with the Holy Spirit. That person is forever SEALED Eph 1:13, 2 Cor 1:22 & Eph 4:30. And no sin (JESUS PAID FOR ALL SIN) can remove us from his loving hand Lk 4:10, Jn 10:28)

Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
(NOTE: The Holy Spirit is a gift Acts 1:4, 2:38, 8:20, 10:45, 11,17 & God doesn't take back gifts. A gifts is given, not earned. However, a gift can be refused)

These seeds that perish were never saved.
Thank you for your respectful post and scriptures to support your view. The thing about osas is, there is scripture in the bible to support it, and scripture that opposes it. The bible does not contradict itself, we would agree there I am sure. So what do we make of scripture concerning this subject, for normally I would never debate it, as it does not really get anywhere.
We say that God accepts us through faith in his son and not by works. We are saved, even when we are dead in transgressions(Eph2:5)
Can I put something to you? What if a person responded to an altar call at church one night, and accepted Christ as their saviour. But they were making a shallow commitment. Would that person then be placed in a saved state? In my view they would. But God, who is all knowing knows the commitment is not a full blooded one so to speak, the cost has not been counted to use Jesus words. Such a person may well walk away from the faith. Hence, scriptures I could(I won't now) quote would support the non osas belief regarding such people.
Others make a full commitment, only God sees the heart. For them, are all of the verses you quoted. You may not agree with me, but if we only cherry pick the verses we like in the bible, we limit the knowledge available to us, and we get a slanted message. I am not saying you do that at all I assure you, it is just what happens when we do cherry pick. And in my view, the best thing to do, is to seek a belief where you do not end up having your own set of scriptures that has to ignore others
God bless
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
11,266
1,953
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#31
Thank you for your respectful post and scriptures to support your view. The thing about osas is, there is scripture in the bible to support it, and scripture that opposes it. The bible does not contradict itself, we would agree there I am sure. So what do we make of scripture concerning this subject, for normally I would never debate it, as it does not really get anywhere.
We say that God accepts us through faith in his son and not by works. We are saved, even when we are dead in transgressions(Eph2:5)
Can I put something to you? What if a person responded to an altar call at church one night, and accepted Christ as their saviour. But they were making a shallow commitment. Would that person then be placed in a saved state? In my view they would. But God, who is all knowing knows the commitment is not a full blooded one so to speak, the cost has not been counted to use Jesus words. Such a person may well walk away from the faith. Hence, scriptures I could(I won't now) quote would support the non osas belief regarding such people.
Others make a full commitment, only God sees the heart. For them, are all of the verses you quoted. You may not agree with me, but if we only cherry pick the verses we like in the bible, we limit the knowledge available to us, and we get a slanted message. I am not saying you do that at all I assure you, it is just what happens when we do cherry pick. And in my view, the best thing to do, is to seek a belief where you do not end up having your own set of scriptures that has to ignore others
God bless
There are many who realize their sin and receive Christ as Savior and do not receive any discipleship, no church, no Bible, and will eventually fall back into the world through circumstances of life. Their works will be burned at the judgment seat of Christ, receive no rewards, but are saved eternally.
 
T

Tim416

Guest
#32
There are many who realize their sin and receive Christ as Savior and do not receive any discipleship, no church, no Bible, and will eventually fall back into the world through circumstances of life. Their works will be burned at the judgment seat of Christ, receive no rewards, but are saved eternally.
t is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[c] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned. Heb6:4-8

If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12 if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;

13 if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself. 2Tim2:11-13

I am not going to have a scripture quoting contest with you regarding this, it is futile. Just showed you, a person can get salvation and end up losing it
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
12,846
5,757
113
#33
Justification is by faith alone or faith plus works?
ROMANS 4 (GOD'S WORD TO ALL)
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
21,025
9,748
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#34
Justification is by faith alone or faith plus works?
Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works. (James 2:14-24)

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28)

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*
 
T

Tim416

Guest
#35
Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works. (James 2:14-24)

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28)

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*
Well put! I see you are having a break from LGW and Bob Ryan!
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
21,025
9,748
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#36
Well put! I see you are having a break from LGW and Bob Ryan!
A much needed break! LOL Arguing with them is like arguing with a lawyer who is out to win his case at all costs, no matter how much trickery, deceit, rhetoric and propaganda that it takes. :cautious:
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
11,266
1,953
113
#37
t is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[c] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned. Heb6:4-8

If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12 if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;

13 if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself. 2Tim2:11-13

I am not going to have a scripture quoting contest with you regarding this, it is futile. Just showed you, a person can get salvation and end up losing it
Scripture actually says in part b, if we deny him, he will deny us. Notice the context is not salvation, but reigning with Him. Did you miss verse 13? If one is in Christ, He can not deny us even if we believe not.

The Hebrews passage is to whom? Oh yeah, the Hebrews, not Church doctrine...rightly divide the word of truth. Your Bible took that part out.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
11,266
1,953
113
#38
No amount of works justifies before God, nor proves one is saved in the eyes of others.
 
T

Tim416

Guest
#39
Scripture actually says in part b, if we deny him, he will deny us. Notice the context is not salvation, but reigning with Him. Did you miss verse 13? If one is in Christ, He can not deny us even if we believe not.

The Hebrews passage is to whom? Oh yeah, the Hebrews, not Church doctrine...rightly divide the word of truth. Your Bible took that part out.
Thank you for your thoughts
 

Sipsey

Well-known member
Sep 27, 2018
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#40
Thank you for your thoughts
1 John 2:19 (KJV)
[19] They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.