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No the two words do not mean the same thing. Sabbatismos means a keeping of a sabbath. It could refer to the keeping of a weekly sabbath, a 7-year land sabbath, or a festival sabbath. Context determines the type of sabbath.
The verb form of this word is σαββατίζω (sabbatizo). It means to keep a sabbath; and is used in the Septuagint (LXX) to refer to all three types of sabbaths listed above.
The most interesting usage is in Leviticus 23:32 where it is used to describe the keeping of the sabbath of the day of atonement, which is called a sabbath of sabbaths (essentially a most holy sabbath). That sabbath was the holiest day of the year.
IMO, the future fulfillment of this day is what the writer of Hebrews is referring to in verses 4:8-11. Leviticus 23:32 says that the children of Israel were to keep the sabbath (sabbatizo) of their sabbaths. I think the writer of Hebrews leveraged this Greek word in the LXX when he wrote Hebrews 4:9 with a view to the future fulfillment of the day of atonement, the true and final keeping of the sabbath (sabbatismos) of sabbaths that yet remained for the people of GOD. That day is when they finally enter into eternal rest.
The verb form of this word is σαββατίζω (sabbatizo). It means to keep a sabbath; and is used in the Septuagint (LXX) to refer to all three types of sabbaths listed above.
The most interesting usage is in Leviticus 23:32 where it is used to describe the keeping of the sabbath of the day of atonement, which is called a sabbath of sabbaths (essentially a most holy sabbath). That sabbath was the holiest day of the year.
IMO, the future fulfillment of this day is what the writer of Hebrews is referring to in verses 4:8-11. Leviticus 23:32 says that the children of Israel were to keep the sabbath (sabbatizo) of their sabbaths. I think the writer of Hebrews leveraged this Greek word in the LXX when he wrote Hebrews 4:9 with a view to the future fulfillment of the day of atonement, the true and final keeping of the sabbath (sabbatismos) of sabbaths that yet remained for the people of GOD. That day is when they finally enter into eternal rest.
Seeing that you quoted some of Romans chapter 7 Let's read a little more of it.
Romans 7:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Religious interpretations never cease to amaze me.
Romans 7:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Religious interpretations never cease to amaze me.
The law is spiritual and you have no power to follow it after your own will because your will is carnal.
The physical portion you have no power to follow because it also is not fulfilled by a carnal will.
So spiritualizing the Law and then trying in your own will to follow it is still not walking in the spirit.
I guess you probably still can't see it. Paul says it better than I do anyway...
Romans 7:18-25
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
[SUP]25 [/SUP]I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
I don't know who you think this is written to but I will help you out. Its not to unbelievers who are struggling with sin. Its for people who delight in the Law of God after the inward man. (verse 22)
Spiritualizing the Law is not the same as walking in the Spirit, is it?
You have no more power to walk in the spiritual aspects of the Law than you do the physical aspects. To place someone under the spiritual law is just as condemning as under the physical law.
Then just-me wrote:Seeing that you quoted some of Romans chapter 7 Let's read a little more of it.
Romans 7:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Religious interpretations never cease to amaze me.
Bravo!! That's what I have saying all along. I'm happy that we come to an agreement. The law is Spiritual. We should take it as such for our edification. If we are to minister to unbelievers we can use that education to bring those to understand why they need Christ's salvation. If we are to understand the dynamics of sacrifice God';s way through Christ Jesus we can see the law as Spiritual food. When Paul writes "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" He is talking about himself as a true believer, and further, an apostle elected by Christ Himself. If the law is Spiritual then we are to learn from it through the Spirit. Not hard is it?
Spiritualizing the Law is not the same as walking in the Spirit, is it?
You have no more power to walk in the spiritual aspects of the Law than you do the physical aspects. To place someone under the spiritual law is just as condemning as under the physical law.
Then just-me wrote:Seeing that you quoted some of Romans chapter 7 Let's read a little more of it.
Romans 7:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Religious interpretations never cease to amaze me.
Bravo!! That's what I have saying all along. I'm happy that we come to an agreement. The law is Spiritual. We should take it as such for our edification. If we are to minister to unbelievers we can use that education to bring those to understand why they need Christ's salvation. If we are to understand the dynamics of sacrifice God';s way through Christ Jesus we can see the law as Spiritual food. When Paul writes "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" He is talking about himself as a true believer, and further, an apostle elected by Christ Himself. If the law is Spiritual then we are to learn from it through the Spirit. Not hard is it?
Until the Lord Jesus leads us by His Holy Spirit.
In Christ Alone. Amen.
The Question is, who do you believe? Men who teach that His Commandments are the 10 Commandments given to the Israelites under the old covenant, or do we believe a man who heard and spoke with Jesus Christ personally, and was His Apostle.
I John 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
Now this wicked generation would have you to believe a lie, and teach you that His commandments are the 10 commandments, which of a Truth can't be found in all of Scriptures. The Apostle John just got done saying Whatsoever we ask of Him, we receive of Him, because we keep His commandment. Now pay attention here, the very next verse PLAINLY tells us what His Commandments are:
I John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should (1) believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and (2) love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
Scriptures plainly and very clearly tells us what His Commandments are, leave it to men of this generation to teach things that are contrary to plain Scriptures. The chose then is, do you choose to believe man and what they teach [His Commandments are the 10 Commandments] or do you believe the words of Apostle John who taught that His Commandments are to 1) Believe on Jesus Christ and to 2) Love one another.
Anyone who teaches things contrary to what the Apostle John, who was inspired by the Holy Ghost to write what he did write, teaches false doctrines, and they are not to be believed. NOTE: i am not referring to any person on these boards, so please don't take offense. i am merely making a factual statement. Anyone who teaches things contrary to what Scriptures plainly teach are indeed teaching false doctrines. That is a True Statement and not directed at any one person on the boards.
^i^
I John 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
Now this wicked generation would have you to believe a lie, and teach you that His commandments are the 10 commandments, which of a Truth can't be found in all of Scriptures. The Apostle John just got done saying Whatsoever we ask of Him, we receive of Him, because we keep His commandment. Now pay attention here, the very next verse PLAINLY tells us what His Commandments are:
I John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should (1) believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and (2) love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
Scriptures plainly and very clearly tells us what His Commandments are, leave it to men of this generation to teach things that are contrary to plain Scriptures. The chose then is, do you choose to believe man and what they teach [His Commandments are the 10 Commandments] or do you believe the words of Apostle John who taught that His Commandments are to 1) Believe on Jesus Christ and to 2) Love one another.
Anyone who teaches things contrary to what the Apostle John, who was inspired by the Holy Ghost to write what he did write, teaches false doctrines, and they are not to be believed. NOTE: i am not referring to any person on these boards, so please don't take offense. i am merely making a factual statement. Anyone who teaches things contrary to what Scriptures plainly teach are indeed teaching false doctrines. That is a True Statement and not directed at any one person on the boards.
^i^
Spiritualizing the Law is not the same as walking in the Spirit, is it?
You have no more power to walk in the spiritual aspects of the Law than you do the physical aspects. To place someone under the spiritual law is just as condemning as under the physical law.
Then just-me wrote:Seeing that you quoted some of Romans chapter 7 Let's read a little more of it.
Romans 7:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Religious interpretations never cease to amaze me.
Bravo!! That's what I have saying all along. I'm happy that we come to an agreement. The law is Spiritual. We should take it as such for our edification. If we are to minister to unbelievers we can use that education to bring those to understand why they need Christ's salvation. If we are to understand the dynamics of sacrifice God';s way through Christ Jesus we can see the law as Spiritual food. When Paul writes "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" He is talking about himself as a true believer, and further, an apostle elected by Christ Himself. If the law is Spiritual then we are to learn from it through the Spirit. Not hard is it?
The Spirit is given through the Word. Jesus is the Word and He sent to us the Comforter/Holy Spirit. Then the Spirit of God gives us understanding. Jesus taught in parables, did many miracles and through those things recorded, and seen first hand, many believed and will in the future.
John 17:17-20 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their WORD;
AMEN! To Love God and our Brother in Christ is in the Law of Moses. Now we know the impact that Jesus was making when He asked what the greatest commandment is. Good deal. This proves the Old Testament and the laws are not extinct.
Deuteronomy 6:5 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Leviticus 19:18 (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
Deuteronomy 6:5 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Leviticus 19:18 (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
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Try your best? You mean walk after the flesh? Well, yeah if you haven't come to Christ that's what you should do.
After we have come to Christ there is a solution to trying your best by your own power.
He causes us to walk in His Statutes. He works in us and through us.
But how can He if you don't believe He Will but that you must do it yourself???
After we have come to Christ there is a solution to trying your best by your own power.
He causes us to walk in His Statutes. He works in us and through us.
But how can He if you don't believe He Will but that you must do it yourself???
It is impossible to walk in the light through our own means, Jesus and the Holy Ghost has to help us, in order to accomplish that. But that does not mean we our own selves do not try. Peter walked on the water because Jesus helped him do that, but Peter had to on his own get out of the boat and step on the water. He believed that he could or he would never have asked Him to bid me to come upon the water.
So then if there is a sin that easily besets you.
Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us .. .. ..
We must try what we can to set that sin aside, first. We must try to do everything in our power to set it aside. It is when we have tried all, is when He will help. This generation would rather pray to God, take this sin away from me God, then blame God when it does not happen.
Thousands of people look at porn, and can't seem to stop, they pray to God continually "God please help me." yet many of them have not tried all they can do, to try to stop looking at porn. Have they told their spouse they are having problems with it? Have they disconnected internet services? have they set up parental controls for themselves? have they had anyone pray for them on this matter? NO? So they continue to pray to God for help, yet they have not done all they could to try to help their own selves. So then some blame God, and lose faith, because they pray and pray for God to take away the lustful desires, yet He does not. And it is not because He doesn't want to help, it is because His hands are tied, and cannot help those who do not help themselves first. Peter could not walk on water, if he did not himself climb off the boat. He did not say Please Jesus let me walk on water to you, then just stand there waiting for Jesus to get him off the boat. Do what you can to cease from the sin that so easily besets you, it is when you do all that you can, that He can miraculously heal you, and it will be gone.
^i^
So then if there is a sin that easily besets you.
Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us .. .. ..
We must try what we can to set that sin aside, first. We must try to do everything in our power to set it aside. It is when we have tried all, is when He will help. This generation would rather pray to God, take this sin away from me God, then blame God when it does not happen.
Thousands of people look at porn, and can't seem to stop, they pray to God continually "God please help me." yet many of them have not tried all they can do, to try to stop looking at porn. Have they told their spouse they are having problems with it? Have they disconnected internet services? have they set up parental controls for themselves? have they had anyone pray for them on this matter? NO? So they continue to pray to God for help, yet they have not done all they could to try to help their own selves. So then some blame God, and lose faith, because they pray and pray for God to take away the lustful desires, yet He does not. And it is not because He doesn't want to help, it is because His hands are tied, and cannot help those who do not help themselves first. Peter could not walk on water, if he did not himself climb off the boat. He did not say Please Jesus let me walk on water to you, then just stand there waiting for Jesus to get him off the boat. Do what you can to cease from the sin that so easily besets you, it is when you do all that you can, that He can miraculously heal you, and it will be gone.
^i^
It doesn't appear that way.
Hebrews 6:1-6 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And this will we do, if God permit.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
If willful sin reigns in a person's life, I would clearly say they never have been saved. Something to think about anyway.
Hebrews 6:1-6 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And this will we do, if God permit.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
If willful sin reigns in a person's life, I would clearly say they never have been saved. Something to think about anyway.
OK, let's read this supposed cancelling of clean and unclean...
Mar 7:15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
Mar 7:16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
You say this cancels Lev 11 and Deut 14 and the fact that clean and unclean were known at the time of the flood...
Gen 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
Now let's read this passage in Mark with ears to hear...
Mar 7:1 Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem.
Mar 7:2 And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault.
The Pharisees found fault (now there's a surprise) with the disciples for eating what? Pork? Shrimp? Lobster? No, for eating without washing their hands.
Mar 7:3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.
Mar 7:4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.
The passage has to do with ceremonial washings that the Pharisees had put into practice that were not from Moses.
Mar 7:5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
Notice here that they were not concerned about the Law, the concern here was the tradition of the elders over and above anything written in the Law.
Mar 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Teaching for doctrine the commandments of men. Teaching that one must go through ceremonial ablutions before one can eat.
Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Please keep this highlighted phrase in mind.
Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
Mar 7:10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
Mar 7:11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
Mar 7:12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Mar 7:14 And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand:
OK, now what was the subject? The traditions of men (the tradition today is that anything you can catch and stuff in your mouth is food) concerning ceremonial washings. This teaching has NOTHING to do with clean and unclean meats. It has to do with making God's commands of none effect by proclaimations of men. Making of none effect the food laws by pulling a scripture out of context and applying it to a subject it had nothing to do with.
[quoteI think we can all agree that everything Jesus said takes precedence over everything Moses said.[/quote]
And any other supposed teacher who tries to enforce non-Biblical teaching. Let's see if you really put your money where your mouth is about this bold statement you have made...
Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Actually what is obvious from above is that you are setting aside the Commandments of God by taking Christ's statements out of context.
Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Gen 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
Here we see murder is a sin and what is sin...
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
The Law defines sin...
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Paul says there is no sin without the Law and we just read at the very beginning there was sin when Cain slew Abel. Hmmm, and you are trying to tell people this Law was not in effect?
OK, so you claim to be under the New Covenant. Let's see if you really are....
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Now this passage in Hebrews 8 is a direct quote from Jeremiah 31...
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Notice what the New Covenant is? It is the writing of God's Law in our hearts and minds. Now what is the word for Law here?
H8451
תּרה תּורה
tôrâh tôrâh
to-raw', to-raw'
From H3384; a precept or statute, especially the Decalogue or Pentateuch: - law.
So, are you under the New Covenant? Has God written His Torah, the Ten Commandments and the Pentateuch in you heart and mind?
Jesus said that nothing would pass from the law of the old covenant until all was fulfilled. Shortly after that, he fulfilled everything required by the law of that covenant.[/quote]
Let's see, has everything been fulfilled?
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
When did this happen and how did we miss it?
I think this may be where you need to start in order to determine what His Commandments are...
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
And continue on through the following chapters.
Mar 7:15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
Mar 7:16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
You say this cancels Lev 11 and Deut 14 and the fact that clean and unclean were known at the time of the flood...
Gen 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
Now let's read this passage in Mark with ears to hear...
Mar 7:1 Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem.
Mar 7:2 And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault.
The Pharisees found fault (now there's a surprise) with the disciples for eating what? Pork? Shrimp? Lobster? No, for eating without washing their hands.
Mar 7:3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.
Mar 7:4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.
The passage has to do with ceremonial washings that the Pharisees had put into practice that were not from Moses.
Mar 7:5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
Notice here that they were not concerned about the Law, the concern here was the tradition of the elders over and above anything written in the Law.
Mar 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Teaching for doctrine the commandments of men. Teaching that one must go through ceremonial ablutions before one can eat.
Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Please keep this highlighted phrase in mind.
Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
Mar 7:10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
Mar 7:11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
Mar 7:12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Mar 7:14 And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand:
OK, now what was the subject? The traditions of men (the tradition today is that anything you can catch and stuff in your mouth is food) concerning ceremonial washings. This teaching has NOTHING to do with clean and unclean meats. It has to do with making God's commands of none effect by proclaimations of men. Making of none effect the food laws by pulling a scripture out of context and applying it to a subject it had nothing to do with.
[quoteI think we can all agree that everything Jesus said takes precedence over everything Moses said.[/quote]
And any other supposed teacher who tries to enforce non-Biblical teaching. Let's see if you really put your money where your mouth is about this bold statement you have made...
Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Actually what is obvious from above is that you are setting aside the Commandments of God by taking Christ's statements out of context.
Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Gen 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
Here we see murder is a sin and what is sin...
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
The Law defines sin...
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Paul says there is no sin without the Law and we just read at the very beginning there was sin when Cain slew Abel. Hmmm, and you are trying to tell people this Law was not in effect?
OK, so you claim to be under the New Covenant. Let's see if you really are....
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Now this passage in Hebrews 8 is a direct quote from Jeremiah 31...
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Notice what the New Covenant is? It is the writing of God's Law in our hearts and minds. Now what is the word for Law here?
H8451
תּרה תּורה
tôrâh tôrâh
to-raw', to-raw'
From H3384; a precept or statute, especially the Decalogue or Pentateuch: - law.
So, are you under the New Covenant? Has God written His Torah, the Ten Commandments and the Pentateuch in you heart and mind?
Jesus said that nothing would pass from the law of the old covenant until all was fulfilled. Shortly after that, he fulfilled everything required by the law of that covenant.[/quote]
Let's see, has everything been fulfilled?
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
When did this happen and how did we miss it?
I think this may be where you need to start in order to determine what His Commandments are...
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
And continue on through the following chapters.
You need to learn to make shorter posts.
Regarding no food being defiled, I don't feel like repeating myself - http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/66710-keep-commandments-51.html#post1098318
Regarding the rest of your ridiculously long post - you keep the letter of the law, I keep the spirit of the law. The letter kills, but the spirit gives life.
Regarding no food being defiled, I don't feel like repeating myself - http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/66710-keep-commandments-51.html#post1098318
Regarding the rest of your ridiculously long post - you keep the letter of the law, I keep the spirit of the law. The letter kills, but the spirit gives life.
What an erudite rebuttal.
I totally agree with your last statement, breaking the letter of the Law kills...
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Actually, I strive to keep both the letter and the Spirit of the Law.
Explain to me how you keep the Spirit of...
Exo 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
While having a go at the neighbors spouse. This explanation should be quite interesting.
I totally agree with your last statement, breaking the letter of the Law kills...
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Actually, I strive to keep both the letter and the Spirit of the Law.
Explain to me how you keep the Spirit of...
Exo 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
While having a go at the neighbors spouse. This explanation should be quite interesting.
E
If I may.. The law of faith says we are to love god with all our heart mind and body. And to love our neighbor (which would include wife as ourself. It also says to love our wives as Christ loved the church.
A person who has been born of God would not even think of having his neighbors wife, if they are focused on the spirit.
We do not stop from committing adultry because God says don;t do it. We do it because we KNOW Gods ways are a better way for us. Those who have tasted Gods love understand this, Evidently you do not. Paul made it clear. The law causes sin to increase, not decrease. we have proof from Israel and all over the OT this is not true. The law leads to christ., because it proves we can not fulfill it. We are utterly helpless.
It is like mom saying do not get a cookee. If she would not have said it. We would never have thought it. But since she said it, it is in our mind, and temptation is at the door.
A person who has been born of God would not even think of having his neighbors wife, if they are focused on the spirit.
We do not stop from committing adultry because God says don;t do it. We do it because we KNOW Gods ways are a better way for us. Those who have tasted Gods love understand this, Evidently you do not. Paul made it clear. The law causes sin to increase, not decrease. we have proof from Israel and all over the OT this is not true. The law leads to christ., because it proves we can not fulfill it. We are utterly helpless.
It is like mom saying do not get a cookee. If she would not have said it. We would never have thought it. But since she said it, it is in our mind, and temptation is at the door.
The pharisees were experts at keeping the letter of the law while violating the spirit of the law. They even blasphemed Christ and the holy spirit on the sabbath while 'keeping the sabbath'.
An example of spirit of the law is the priests who worked on the sabbath, and in doing so profaned the sabbath. They broke the letter of the law, but not the spirit of the law, and were therefore considered blameless. The whole purpose of the sabbath was to be a sign to Israel that GOD was the one sanctifying them. The letter of the law was to not do any servile work, but the spirit was to acknowledge and submit to GOD's sanctification. That is why the priests were considered blameless, as well as the disciples who were serving Jesus.
An example of spirit of the law is the priests who worked on the sabbath, and in doing so profaned the sabbath. They broke the letter of the law, but not the spirit of the law, and were therefore considered blameless. The whole purpose of the sabbath was to be a sign to Israel that GOD was the one sanctifying them. The letter of the law was to not do any servile work, but the spirit was to acknowledge and submit to GOD's sanctification. That is why the priests were considered blameless, as well as the disciples who were serving Jesus.
Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple. But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day. Matthew 12:5-8