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So are you saying that God the Father is less than Jesus, and Romans 7 really isn't applicable for all Christians as it was for Paul? I know I'm being redundant, but what is it that some can't see the law as pertaining to this day in the Spirit. If we see the law as Spiritual then it is the law of liberty through Christ Jesus.
James 1:25 (KJV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
James 2:11-12 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
If there were no purpose in the law, it would have never been mentioned in the New Testament. Of course one must consider that the writings of the Old Testament was all the New Testament writers had for information, as they wrote in the Spirit, and Paul says the law is Spiritual.
Romans 8:1-6 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
It's high time that we stop looking at the law, or any other part of it, as Physical only. If we can't do that, I would suppose we are carnally minded then. Just sayin'
James 1:25 (KJV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
James 2:11-12 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
If there were no purpose in the law, it would have never been mentioned in the New Testament. Of course one must consider that the writings of the Old Testament was all the New Testament writers had for information, as they wrote in the Spirit, and Paul says the law is Spiritual.
Romans 8:1-6 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
It's high time that we stop looking at the law, or any other part of it, as Physical only. If we can't do that, I would suppose we are carnally minded then. Just sayin'
so.....no dietary changes?
everything living including Adam and Eve were vegetarian before the fall:
Genesis 1:29
28And God blessed them, and God said to them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth. 29And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creeps on the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
Noah:
Genesis 9:3
Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.
....as i mentioned, i understood you were spiritualizing unclean animals and saying God used them to teach morality or values.
if this is the case, could you post a few clear examples?
my point was - the only comparison between animals RE: clean vs unclean was ALLEGORY of jews vs gentiles.
God said He had made the gentiles CLEAN.
AND...the disciples were only "clean" because of the word He had spoken to them.
there is none righteous (clean), no not one...unless the Lord cleanses us.
everything living including Adam and Eve were vegetarian before the fall:
Genesis 1:29
28And God blessed them, and God said to them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth. 29And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creeps on the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
Noah:
Genesis 9:3
Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.
....as i mentioned, i understood you were spiritualizing unclean animals and saying God used them to teach morality or values.
if this is the case, could you post a few clear examples?
my point was - the only comparison between animals RE: clean vs unclean was ALLEGORY of jews vs gentiles.
God said He had made the gentiles CLEAN.
AND...the disciples were only "clean" because of the word He had spoken to them.
there is none righteous (clean), no not one...unless the Lord cleanses us.
I don't know what you mean by Jesus being greater than the father. Jesus is the one who gave the law to Moses.
The righteousness required by the law of Moses does pertain to this day and age, but how can we who were never a part of the old covenant have ever been under the law of that covenant?
The law is for educational purposes. Period.
You're preaching to the choir. Tell that to the ones who are so fixated on the law of Moses.
The righteousness required by the law of Moses does pertain to this day and age, but how can we who were never a part of the old covenant have ever been under the law of that covenant?
The law is for educational purposes. Period.
You're preaching to the choir. Tell that to the ones who are so fixated on the law of Moses.
Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Galatians 5:22-23
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,[SUP]23 [/SUP]Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Spiritualizing the Law is not the same as walking in the Spirit, is it?
You have no more power to walk in the spiritual aspects of the Law than you do the physical aspects. To place someone under the spiritual law is just as condemning as under the physical law.
Romans 7:4-6
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Galatians 5:22-23
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,[SUP]23 [/SUP]Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Spiritualizing the Law is not the same as walking in the Spirit, is it?
You have no more power to walk in the spiritual aspects of the Law than you do the physical aspects. To place someone under the spiritual law is just as condemning as under the physical law.
Romans 7:4-6
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
And if the writer had meant the rest that we enter into, he would have used katapausis just like he did in verses 1, 3, 5, 10 and 11. Now why did he use Sabbatismos in verse 9 while using katapausis in verses 1, 3, 5, 10 and 11?
Yes it is an unusual word with an unusual meaning. It does not mean the same rest like the verses around it.
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Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: sabbatismos
Phonetic Spelling: (sab-bat-is-mos')
Short Definition: a Sabbath rest
Definition: a keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest[/TD]
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From the website...
Strong's Greek: 4520. σαββατισμός (sabbatismos) -- a sabbath rest
Now you can call it a space shuttle if you want but the writer (most believe Paul) meant the Sabbath rest.
Yes it is an unusual word with an unusual meaning. It does not mean the same rest like the verses around it.
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sabbatismos: a sabbath rest
Original Word: σαββατισμός, οῦ, ὁPart of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: sabbatismos
Phonetic Spelling: (sab-bat-is-mos')
Short Definition: a Sabbath rest
Definition: a keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest[/TD]
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From the website...
Strong's Greek: 4520. σαββατισμός (sabbatismos) -- a sabbath rest
Now you can call it a space shuttle if you want but the writer (most believe Paul) meant the Sabbath rest.
E
Your right. Black means white.
Rest from their enemies, Rain in the land for Crops. And having all their needs met (rest from work) is white. To you it means the seventh day (black)
no wonder you guys reject grace, You do not understand, nor have you felt the rest God gives those who are born into his family. You make it out to be a religious thing. Just like the jews in the time of christ did.
And the truth is what scripture says it is.
God promised them rest. But because they continually complained. and followed their egyption Gods. God never gave it to them, Instead, they wandered the dessert for 40 years.. why? God swore in his wrath, they would never enter his rest..
Has NOTHING to do with saturday. thats all your twisted view so you can puff yourself up that you follow law. and condemn those you claim do not ..
Sound just like the pharisees.
Rest from their enemies, Rain in the land for Crops. And having all their needs met (rest from work) is white. To you it means the seventh day (black)
no wonder you guys reject grace, You do not understand, nor have you felt the rest God gives those who are born into his family. You make it out to be a religious thing. Just like the jews in the time of christ did.
And the truth is what scripture says it is.
God promised them rest. But because they continually complained. and followed their egyption Gods. God never gave it to them, Instead, they wandered the dessert for 40 years.. why? God swore in his wrath, they would never enter his rest..
Has NOTHING to do with saturday. thats all your twisted view so you can puff yourself up that you follow law. and condemn those you claim do not ..
Sound just like the pharisees.
E
Now that I am home. lets get the true picture.
σαββατισμός, -οῦ, ὁ, (σαββατίζω to keep the sabbath);
1. a keeping sabbath.
2. the blessed rest from toils and troubles looked for in the age to come by the true worshippers of God and true Christians [R. V. sabbath rest]: Heb. 4:9. (Plut. de superstit. c. 3; eccl. writ.)*
Thayer, J. H. (1889). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: Being Grimm's Wilke's Clavis Novi Testamenti (565). New York: Harper & Brothers.
It would appear even Mr Thayer (of whom you referenced) disagrees with you. why is that??
But lets not stop there!!
4520. σαββατισμός sabbatismŏs, sab-bat-is-mos´; from a der. of 4521; a “sabbatism”, i.e. (fig.) the repose of Christianity (as a type of heaven):—rest.
Strong, J. (2009). Vol. 1: A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible (64). Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software.
4. sabbatismos (σαββατισμός, 4520), “a Sabbath-keeping,” is used in Heb. 4:9, RV, “a sabbath rest,” KJV marg., “a keeping of a sabbath” (akin to sabbatizo, “to keep the Sabbath,” used, e.g., in Exod. 16:30, not in the NT); here the sabbath-keeping is the perpetual sabbath “rest” to be enjoyed uninterruptedly by believers in their fellowship with the Father and the Son, in contrast to the weekly Sabbath under the Law. Because this sabbath “rest” is the “rest” of God Himself, 4:10, its full fruition is yet future, though believers now enter into it. In whatever way they enter into divine “rest,” that which they enjoy is involved in an indissoluble relation with God.¶
Vine, W. E., Unger, M. F., & White, W., Jr. (1996). Vol. 2: Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (529). Nashville, TN: T. Nelson.
4520. σαββατισμός sabbatismŏs, sab-bat-is-mos´; from a der. of 4521; a “sabbatism,” i.e. (fig.) the repose of Christianity (as a type of heaven):— rest.
Strong, J. (1996). The New Strong’s Dictionary of Hebrew and Greek Words. Nashville: Thomas Nelson.
All these agree with those of us who say this is not a day or week. But a position of peace we can heave on earth, which surpasses all understanding.
This as apposed to the day or week.
4521. σάββατον sabbatŏn, sab´-bat-on; of Heb. or. [7676]; the Sabbath (i.e. Shabbath), or day of weekly repose from secular avocations (also the observance or institution itself); by extens. a se´nnight, i.e. the interval between two Sabbaths; likewise the plural in all the above applications:— sabbath (day), week.
Strong, J. (1996). The New Strong’s Dictionary of Hebrew and Greek Words. Nashville: Thomas Nelson.
As you can see, it is a completely different word!
So now. What did you say about proof? Your proof does not support your position!
Thats why I waited till I got home to really reply to the greek. I have many greek helps from Logos Bible software at home to help..
σαββατισμός, -οῦ, ὁ, (σαββατίζω to keep the sabbath);
1. a keeping sabbath.
2. the blessed rest from toils and troubles looked for in the age to come by the true worshippers of God and true Christians [R. V. sabbath rest]: Heb. 4:9. (Plut. de superstit. c. 3; eccl. writ.)*
Thayer, J. H. (1889). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: Being Grimm's Wilke's Clavis Novi Testamenti (565). New York: Harper & Brothers.
It would appear even Mr Thayer (of whom you referenced) disagrees with you. why is that??
But lets not stop there!!
4520. σαββατισμός sabbatismŏs, sab-bat-is-mos´; from a der. of 4521; a “sabbatism”, i.e. (fig.) the repose of Christianity (as a type of heaven):—rest.
Strong, J. (2009). Vol. 1: A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible (64). Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software.
4. sabbatismos (σαββατισμός, 4520), “a Sabbath-keeping,” is used in Heb. 4:9, RV, “a sabbath rest,” KJV marg., “a keeping of a sabbath” (akin to sabbatizo, “to keep the Sabbath,” used, e.g., in Exod. 16:30, not in the NT); here the sabbath-keeping is the perpetual sabbath “rest” to be enjoyed uninterruptedly by believers in their fellowship with the Father and the Son, in contrast to the weekly Sabbath under the Law. Because this sabbath “rest” is the “rest” of God Himself, 4:10, its full fruition is yet future, though believers now enter into it. In whatever way they enter into divine “rest,” that which they enjoy is involved in an indissoluble relation with God.¶
Vine, W. E., Unger, M. F., & White, W., Jr. (1996). Vol. 2: Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (529). Nashville, TN: T. Nelson.
4520. σαββατισμός sabbatismŏs, sab-bat-is-mos´; from a der. of 4521; a “sabbatism,” i.e. (fig.) the repose of Christianity (as a type of heaven):— rest.
Strong, J. (1996). The New Strong’s Dictionary of Hebrew and Greek Words. Nashville: Thomas Nelson.
All these agree with those of us who say this is not a day or week. But a position of peace we can heave on earth, which surpasses all understanding.
This as apposed to the day or week.
4521. σάββατον sabbatŏn, sab´-bat-on; of Heb. or. [7676]; the Sabbath (i.e. Shabbath), or day of weekly repose from secular avocations (also the observance or institution itself); by extens. a se´nnight, i.e. the interval between two Sabbaths; likewise the plural in all the above applications:— sabbath (day), week.
Strong, J. (1996). The New Strong’s Dictionary of Hebrew and Greek Words. Nashville: Thomas Nelson.
As you can see, it is a completely different word!
So now. What did you say about proof? Your proof does not support your position!
Thats why I waited till I got home to really reply to the greek. I have many greek helps from Logos Bible software at home to help..
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E
To all you sabbath loving people
Here is the command as per the law.
Ex 20: 8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
Ex 31: 12 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 13 “Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: ‘Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you. 14 You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.’”
Ex 35: 35 Then Moses gathered all the congregation of the children of Israel together, and said to them, “These are the words which the Lord has commanded you to do: 2 Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh day shall be a holy day for you, a Sabbath of rest to the Lord. Whoever does any work on it shall be put to death. 3 You shall kindle no fire throughout your dwellings on the Sabbath day.”
Lev 23: 3 ‘Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings.
so here are the questions.
1. Where does it say anything about going to Church on Saterday.
2. Would it not be against the sabbath to go to church?? You have to work to get there, the pastor has to labor to teach. the musicians have to labor to do all their work. The people collecting the money, do they not have to labor to count it, and put it where it belongs?? How about all the teachers. are they not laboring to work to teach and help?
3. How many of your TRULY follow the sabaath, by making ALL your food on friday night, and not cooking anything on saturday? And how many of you mock it by going out to eat, forcing others to break the sabbath??
of course I will not get any honest answers (well at least I do not expect to) but it is time to stop being like the pharisees and holier than all others. And admit, That most likely. NON OF USE truly keep the sabbath as it was given to Israel.
Here is the command as per the law.
Ex 20: 8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
Ex 31: 12 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 13 “Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: ‘Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you. 14 You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.’”
Ex 35: 35 Then Moses gathered all the congregation of the children of Israel together, and said to them, “These are the words which the Lord has commanded you to do: 2 Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh day shall be a holy day for you, a Sabbath of rest to the Lord. Whoever does any work on it shall be put to death. 3 You shall kindle no fire throughout your dwellings on the Sabbath day.”
Lev 23: 3 ‘Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings.
so here are the questions.
1. Where does it say anything about going to Church on Saterday.
2. Would it not be against the sabbath to go to church?? You have to work to get there, the pastor has to labor to teach. the musicians have to labor to do all their work. The people collecting the money, do they not have to labor to count it, and put it where it belongs?? How about all the teachers. are they not laboring to work to teach and help?
3. How many of your TRULY follow the sabaath, by making ALL your food on friday night, and not cooking anything on saturday? And how many of you mock it by going out to eat, forcing others to break the sabbath??
of course I will not get any honest answers (well at least I do not expect to) but it is time to stop being like the pharisees and holier than all others. And admit, That most likely. NON OF USE truly keep the sabbath as it was given to Israel.
E
No reject it. Grace is given to those who do not deserve it. You seem to think we can deserve it. If I could ever become sinless. I WOULD NO LONGER NEED GRACE.
and stop this license to sin crap. I have PROVEN to you that is a false gospel. which I DO NOT PRACTICE OR PREACH.
Stop listening to men.. who have you so twisted you can;t listen to anything anyone says because your told what to believe by what they tell you. And start listening to what people say! All you do is make a mockery of Gods word when you continually bear false witness against others. You break the very commandments you demand we follow. Then Claim your worthy?? WOW!! That is hypocracy at its best!
and stop this license to sin crap. I have PROVEN to you that is a false gospel. which I DO NOT PRACTICE OR PREACH.
Stop listening to men.. who have you so twisted you can;t listen to anything anyone says because your told what to believe by what they tell you. And start listening to what people say! All you do is make a mockery of Gods word when you continually bear false witness against others. You break the very commandments you demand we follow. Then Claim your worthy?? WOW!! That is hypocracy at its best!