Keep Yourself Pure

Skinski7 · Mar 28, 2013

Show me one Scripture in the Bible which states that "Jesus paid the penalty for your sins."

You see that it is one of the fundamental problems you have. You hold to the stronghold of Penal Substitution and thus base "being released from the dominion of sin" as based on "your penalty payment being paid for you." THE BIBLE DOES NOT TEACH THAT.

The Bible teaches that JESUS PURCHASED YOU. Jesus purchased you so that you can die to sin being your master and turn and serve a new master which is Christ. The death of Christ has nothing whatsoever to do with "paying your fine."

You twist the scriptures and come to faulty conclusions because you view the Bible through twisted dogma. You need to clear your mind of all that dogma and simply read the scriptures for what they plainly state.

I specifically point out your fallacies and YOU IGNORE what I say. Instead you come up with some rhetoric to cast aspersion on me.

Again, you claim that one is forgiven whilst in rebellion which contradicts all those passage I showed you. Now you can continue to ignore me and hold to your delusion and in doing so you are in peril of your soul or you can take some time and dig deep into what the Bible actually teaches.

The Spirit of Truth will not lead you into error.

Now I don't know if you are committing sins presently or not for I do not know you. I do know what you have written through. Clearly you teach forgiveness IN sin. That is error. You ought to address that error. What do you do with the Scriptures I showed you? Ignore them?

How does Rom 3:25 prove forgiveness in sin? You ignore Rom 3:25 because you said...

Thus you believe that FUTURE SINS ARE FORGIVEN IN ADVANCE. Rom 3:25 says PAST SINS as you point out therefore I fail to understand the point you are trying to make.

We approach God in repentance and faith, by which we forsake our rebellion, and we seek forgiveness for our PAST transgressions. We don't approach God still engaged in all manner of filthy behaviour, God does not forgive anyone IN their sins.

homwardbound · Mar 28, 2013

Skinski7 said:

All Glory to God and after seeing what I have seen, I today glory in my iniquities for in my weakness God's strength is perfect
Thank you for reminding me of my need and your intolerance and having to be perfect in and of yourself that you will never attain only Christ could and since Christ was born the Virgin Mary and no one else is then noone else can do as you are claiming must be done before God forgives and gives redemption
Bye Slinski have a great life in stressing out becsause under the law you are under the curse,even though the law is just pur perfect and correct, but when it flows through flesh it is weak and can't perform when you come to the end of the energy opf yuor own flesh then maybe you might repent and change your mind that it is all Christ and none of you

Skinski7 · Mar 28, 2013

homwardbound said:

You completely ignore what I actually state and twist it into something else entirely.

You are not honest!

I never claimed that we are to be perfect in of of ourselves. That is you creating a strawman you can pull down instead of addressing what I actually say.

I am simply saying that it is in repentance that the rebellion to God is forsaken.

The Prodigal Son left the pig pen BEFORE he was restored did he not? It appears you won't even touch that parable.

What about Pro 28:13...

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

It plainly says "whoso confesses and forsakes them shall have mercy." Now that either means what it says or it does not. Obviously you don't believe what it says.

Isaiah 55:7 is another one...

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Isn't that exactly what the Prodigal Son did? Did not the Prodigal Son forsake his way and turn back to the father BEFORE he was pardoned?

Yet you'll ignore my words on this and say something like this...

What on earth is that? Would you say the same thing to Paul if he said this to you...

Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

I'll quote this...

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Yet you'll respond with this...

What a cop out! The Bible teaches we "work together with God." Show me where the Bible says that it is "none of us." Salvation is not of us APART from God, but we most definitely have to cooperate with God. We have to be faithful to his commands.

You are twisting the preaching of "saving faith" into a strawman of "saving oneself." You are being extremely dishonest with what you are doing because you refuse to address what I specifically state but instead make VAGUE ALLUSIONS to what I say by CREATING STRAWMAN which you speak against. All you are doing is deceiving yourself and trying to tickle your own ears.

This is one of the problems with professing Christianity, when you peel all the superficial "love talk" away you have people who DENY the Bible.

As long as you're saying, "God loves you, God is merciful, God has a wonderful plan for your life, praise God, thanks be to Jesus, Jesus died for us" then everything is fine. Yet when you bring up the issue of "forsaking sin" LIKE THE BIBLE ACTUALLY TEACHES then, bang, you'll quickly be labelled a divisive heretic with no love, judgmental, teaching we don't need Jesus, teaching sinless perfection, and so on.

So many who profess Christ want salvation AND sin. They want so much to believe in a doctrine which allows them to keep on sinning and yet be forgiven at the same time. Expose that issue and the love mask comes off.

psychomom · Mar 28, 2013

This comes to mind...

When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. (Col. 2:13-14)

The 'certificate of debt' was essentially an IOU--a judgment.
We owed God a debt because of our sins. (death--the wages of sin)

Skinski7 · Mar 28, 2013

psychomom said:

Yes God cancels the debt, BUT Jesus did not pay it for us.

The parable of the unforgiving servant as taught by Jesus illustrates this in that the debt was freely forgiven, yet when the servant did not forgive his own servant the debt was reinstated.

Under the Penal Model where "Jesus pays the fine" then the debt could not be reinstated for it would have been "already paid."

The Bible does not teach anywhere that Jesus "paid the fine or paid the penalty due sin." That is a doctrine of man which is read into the Bible. The Bible is very clear that Jesus purchased us. Thus a price was paid but it was not in the form of a "penal substitution."

The Penal Model necessitates the teaching of unconditional eternal security because it disconnects salvation from the manifest condition of the heart and thus the basis of justification is in the "penalty being paid" and thus justice satisfied. Under this model the fine cannot be "unpaid" hence future rebellion is placed in the context of "loss of fellowship with God" as opposed to a "loss of salvation." The other day a sister in Christ was thinking about this and she made the astute observation of how could one be saved APART from fellowship with God, I though that was a very good point.

The Bible teaches that the blood purges the conscience of sin (Heb 9:14, 10:22, 1Joh 1:7, 2Pet 1:9) as opposed to being a "payment of a sin debt." How one views the death of Christ is very important in regards to how they will perceive the Ministry of Reconciliation as it applies to the salvation of the soul.

Satan is a master theologian and the way his deceptions work are are the fundamental levels below the surface. Instead of an outright denial of Christ and the shedding of His blood for the remission of sin, Satan is much more subtle in redefining the underlying terms by introducing leaven at the fundamental level.

It is for this reason that we all have to be DILIGENT because Satan is a roaring lion and is not to be underestimated. God is a rewarder of those who DILIGENTLY seek Him, not of those who are complacent, we have to LOVE THE TRUTH for if we do we will DILIGENTLY SEEK it.

Professor · Mar 28, 2013

Skinski: "The Prodigal Son left the pig pen BEFORE he was restored did he not? It appears you won't even touch that parable."

The Prodigal Son never stopped being a son, did he?

eternally-gratefull · Mar 28, 2013

Skinski7 said:

He did not?

having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. (Col. 2:13-14)

How was our certificate of death nailed to the cross with Christ? If Christ did not take it for us

this is called redemption. he purchased our justification on the cross through his death.

why you think you can make yourself right with God. I will never understand. Satan has you hooked line and sinkered and is reeling you in.. Your gonna be a great catch for him if you do not let Christ rescue you before it is too late.

homwardbound · Mar 28, 2013

Skinski7 said:

Why are you so condemning? You are not the judge of others you are not even the judge of yourself For God id the Judge and will on the day of judgement the secrets of all man's hearts their motives? There will be a reckoning that day and all works will be put through the fire and there will be loss and there will be gain, and the fire of the Holy Ghost will decide and will burn up the works to nothing ashes or the works will survive and there will be rewards as God sees fit not anyone else. Then finally if all my works burn up which all of my flesh works will I myself will have to go through the fire and if I survive because i believed then I can be counted the least in the kingdom of heaven if all my works burn up that is, and all my works will burn up. But God's works through my belief will not ever burn up.
Hey Midrach,. Shadrach, and Abindego come out of there and who is that fourth man in the fire did we not only throw in three Wow!!!!!! and King Nebechenezzar came to belief in the living Savior that just loves him. Can you not see this Skinski that God just plainly loves you oh man he does and is reaching out to youby his love you are saved and repent in response to this amnazing love that he has poured out to you by the cross

RedTent · Mar 28, 2013

I think the instruction of God to keep yourself pure can be summed up in this scripture: Phip 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

Before God gave the Holy Spirit to everyone who asked, God gave symbols to help them learn. God said don't eat anything that is there to clean the earth, no scavengers. It was to remind people about being pure and also being separated or santified as His people. People used eating instruction without the spiritual meaning of it, so through Paul, God really scolded. I use this as a symbol and reminder to myself. Paul would tell me i should be grown up enough to not need the symbol of purity to work at being pure. Well, I'm not. I can use all the help I can get.

homwardbound · Mar 28, 2013

RedTent said:

iron always has sharpened iron so we share out of love
[h=3]1 John 4:7-8[/h]New Living Translation (NLT)

[h=3]Loving One Another[/h][SUP]7 [/SUP]Dear friends, let us continue to love one another, for love comes from God. Anyone who loves is a child of God and knows God. [SUP]8 [/SUP]But anyone who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

carey · Mar 28, 2013

Here is the problem
believing that you have to come to Jesus pure before salvation is a doctrine of works not grace, maybe you are the only human on earth that is perfect before you got saved, though I doubt it, or you forgot the filth from where you came from, someone told me once "I like your Christ, I don't like your Christians, because your Christians are nothing like your Christ " that should put everyone that calls themselves a Christ follower to shame, when we use condemnation, start judging, and have our nose stuck so high up in the clouds we become self righteous, do you think that will win anyone to Christ? Instead it turns them away from the cross, you cannot expect perfection from an imperfect people, our human nature is to sin, it is only through Jesus that we become righteous, our own righteousness is ugly and disgusting, it can only produce heavy burden's

SarahM777 · Mar 28, 2013

Skinski7 said:

Skinski,

Just a quick question,do you see the parable about the son as about salvation or is it about restoration? Because if it's not about salvation to begin with but it's about a son that goes into rebellion and is restored it makes a huge difference.

teuful_hunden · Mar 28, 2013

Skinski7 said:

Reformed Theology can basically be summed up in the TULIP of Calvinism.

T Total Depravity

U Unconditional Election

L Limited Atonement

I Irresistible Grace

P Perseverance of the Saints

Total Depravity is basically summed up with...

Article 6 Westminster Confession of Faith
Westminster Confession of Faith

Total depravity teaches that the reason people sin is because they were BORN SINNERS and are thus DISABLED from making the virtuous choice. Thus sin is not a criminal action due to an exercise of free agency in CHOOSING to do wrong, rather it is a SYMPTOM of a birth state.

Total Depravity COMPLETELY REDEFINES REPENTANCE from being "the change of mind that produces the forsaking of sin" to a "confession of sinfulness." Thus under Reformed Theology one approaches God STILL IN REBELLION.

Total Depravity also teaches that a regenerated Christian exists in an ongoing state of sinfulness and thus is a denial of the possibility of heart purity in this life. This is why Reformed teachers TWIST the Scriptures and teach that passages like Romans 7:14-25, 1Joh 1:8, 1Tim 1:15, Isa 64:6, etc. support an ongoing state of wickedness/sinfulness in a Christian. The doctrine of Total Depravity infiltrated and found wide acceptance in Christian orthodoxy through the prolific influence of Augustine in the Fourth Century. Reformed theologians like Martin Luther and John Calvin held Augustine in very high regard and used his material prolifically in formulating their theologies.

Total Depravity is an extremely dangerous teaching for it redefines the nature of man and thus redefines the entire Gospel message by redefining repentance, faith, grace, salvation and sin.

Unconditional Election is a symptom of the doctrine of Total Depravity. Due to the doctrine of Total Depravity teaching that man is DISABLED from the virtuous choice man therefore cannot seek God unless God Irresistibly Draws him. Thus those who are granted Irresistible Grace are Unconditionally Elected for there is NO CONDITION that a man can meet to merit election. Thus the Reformed doctrine of Predestination teaches that God unconditionally picks those who are to be saved and then draws them with irresistible grace. This doctrine also has its root in the writings of Augustine.

The Limited Atonement teaches that Jesus only died for the elect and in principle this is due to Penal Substitution theology. The Penal Substitution view of the atonement was invented by Reformers who took that Satisfaction view of Anselm (Satisfaction theory of atonement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) and added a Penal aspect to it. The Anselmian view teaches that Christ died to satisfy divine justice in order that God could forgive sin without casting dispersion on His justice. The Moral Government view of people like Charles Finney is rooted in the Anselmian view.

The Reformers (many of who were lawyers) took the Satisfaction Model and added an aspect of judicial punishment to it and thus taught that Jesus literally bore the full wrath of God as a substitute for the sinner. This is where the phrase, "Jesus paid for your sins" comes from. The Bible does not actually teach that "Jesus paid for your sins," instead it teaches that "we were bought with a price" and the context of that is "ransom" but that is another subject.

If Jesus literally was punished for sins as a substitute it necessitates that punishment cannot be due for those sins anymore (hence unconditional eternal security or "once saved always saved") thus there is no possible way that Jesus could have bore the wrath as a substitute for those who are lost. To imply that Jesus died for those who are to perish would imply double jeopardy or the same sins being punished twice thus Reformed doctrine teaches that Jesus ONLY died for the elect hence the Limited Atonement.

I already discussed Irresistible Grace so I'll move onto Perseverance of the Saints. Perseverance of the Saints is the teaching that due to God irresistibly drawing the unconditioned elect they will by necessity persevere in the faith.

The whole premise of Reformed Theology is established on a perverted view of the Sovereignty of God. In their minds the sovereignty of God negates the free agency of man. The truth is that God is the sovereign judge who has a sovereign standard but He has granted all men the free gift of free moral agency. Thus we can CHOOSE whom we will serve. We can resist the light of God and walk our own way and become enslaved to our base desires, or we can yield to the light of God and walk in His Spirit.

Reformed Theology consists of layer upon layer of error. Examining it is like peeling an onion, in the middle of the onion is the doctrine of Total Depravity which teaches that man is unable to make the choice to serve God. This inability has to be offset by the grace of God before an individual can turn to God. This is why they preach a SAVED IN SINS message.

The Bible teaches that the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men teaching them how they should go (Tit 2:11-12). Men have the choice as to whether to submit to God or to rebel against God. Jesus Christ is the light that lights all men who come into the world (Joh 1:9). There is no such thing as inability and there is no such thing as being born in a state of total depravity. Men can become totally depraved by willfully suppressing the truth in unrighteousness whereby God will give them over to a reprobate mind (Rom 1:20-32) but men are not born that way.

Reformed theology is Satanic to the core because it perverts the method by which sinners can approach God to be reconciled. Reformed theology perverts repentance and faith at the fundamental level whereby a sinner is convinced that they cannot forsake their sin and that they can be reconciled to God IN their sin. Thus they come to a false notion of salvation (based off thinking they have been cloaked by the imputed righteous of Christ and that Jesus paid their fine) while in reality they remain dead in their sins for they are still in rebellion to God.

This false notion of salvation inoculates them very effectually against the real truth and thus the mind becomes firmly closed to the real truth of God. You'll clearly see this evidenced on these forums by many people who refuse to acknowledge certain passages in the Scripture which completely refute their position.

Well I do enjoy being called satanic

Graybeard · Mar 28, 2013

Professor said:

Hi Skinski,
I was thinking about this parable, found in Luke 13:6-9. It doesn't perhaps speak directly to this post, but I think it provides tremendous insight. This is the story of the fig tree that bears no fruit after I believe 3 years. The man tells the gardener to cut it down. The gardener, showing loving care and profound patience, says to give the tree another year. He will nourish it with manure, and see what happens. God is incredibly loving and patient with us.

on the other hand when Jesus came to a fig tree with no fruit He cursed it.....

homwardbound · Mar 29, 2013

Skinski7 said:

And I am 100% content with your way of thinking we all free choice and you have made your choice, so have I and am safe in him and only there am I safe. I appreciate the conversation(s)
Love you Skinski

homwardbound · Mar 29, 2013

Skinski7 said:

Romans 5:6You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.
Romans 5:8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Romans 5:15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
Romans 6:10The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
Romans 7:4So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.
Romans 8:34Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us
Romans 14:9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
Romans 14:15If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone for whom Christ died.
1 Corinthians 15:3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
2 Corinthians 5:14For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.
2 Corinthians 5:15And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.
Galatians 2:19“For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God.
Galatians 2:21I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”
Colossians 2:20Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules:
Colossians 3:3For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.
1 Thessalonians 4:14For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
1 Thessalonians 5:10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.
Hebrews 9:15For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

RedTent · Mar 29, 2013

carey said:

I think by using a lot of this reasoning it just comes between how God wants us to live to obstruct it. We are born in sin, we need Christ to forgive. We must not judge other people as we learn to judge what is sinful in the world. We must die to ourselves and our way of doing things, and take on the way of God. All good thoughts.

When God talks of heavy burdens, he is talking of sin in our lives. Work is not a heavy burden. It can never be disgusting to take on God's way to do things, it is only disgusting when we don't use God's way as our guide.

We are to win others to Christ by listening to and following Christ. To do that we must work (yes work) to subject ourselves to Him. God says so. God talks of obedience, God says follow me, God says to keep ourselves pure.

I don't think any of this results in "self-righteous" "disgusting" "start judging" "ugly". It leads to the fruits of the spirit that God tells us about.

carey · Mar 29, 2013

What I'm talking about is when you make work's the basis for salvation that is ugly because you have replaced the work of the cross, works is evident after salvation, after your saved you desire to do good works, and anything that comes before or tries to replace the work of the cross is ugly

RedTent · Mar 29, 2013

carey said:

I understand where you are coming from, Carey. But we aren't people here who deny Christ and the part He plays in our life. When we work it has nothing to do with living apart from God, that just doesn't enter into our work. We need to know that work without God a part of that work is useless, but knowing that is not part of our dedication to being pure. It is another subject altogether.

Skinski7 · Mar 29, 2013

homwardbound said:

Romans 5:6You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.
Romans 5:8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Romans 5:15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
Romans 6:10The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
Romans 7:4So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.
Romans 8:34Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us
Romans 14:9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
Romans 14:15If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone for whom Christ died.
1 Corinthians 15:3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
2 Corinthians 5:14For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.
2 Corinthians 5:15And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.
Galatians 2:19“For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God.
Galatians 2:21I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”
Colossians 2:20Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules:
Colossians 3:3For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.
1 Thessalonians 4:14For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
1 Thessalonians 5:10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.
Hebrews 9:15For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

You have only shown scriptures which teach that Jesus died for us, that is not what I asked for, again I ask...

Show me one Scripture in the Bible which states that "Jesus paid the penalty for your sins."

Keep Yourself Pure

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