Kenneth Hagin and the prosperity gospel

[popeye]

Of course the Lord wants me to live decently in this life... that's not something that should be put before the Lord as an idol, but none the less He is my Provider and He has blessed me financially and in every area of life much more than I deserve which has enabled me to help a lot of other people along the way not as unto good works but unto God loves them and He has the right to command me to give to others as He leads.

On the other hand, there are some that believe God doesn't want us to have hardly anything and so... they live on barely get by street and don't help anyone much due to needing help themselves.

Plenty of scripture in the Word that demonstrates the Lord desires to bless His people in every area of life... but, He is opposed to people making an idol out of "what can God do for me!" mentality.

So, who amongst us believes God wants us to be poor and WHY are you not giving ALL your stuff away and living under a bridge somewhere to show yourself as being "humble" before the Lord???

Yee haw, let's hear it for broke, busted, and disgusted!

They start these threads over and over. They get us to fight. They know there are charismatics such as myself in the membership.

Joel is an encourager. I usually enjoy listening to him.

I see their "proof" he is a heretic. Yes,all cessationists hate us,and mock us,and lampoon us. It is their way. It is their fruit.

 

[popeye]

Originally Posted by Stephen63.......(Image of hagin removed out of respect)

What a shame you have nothing better to do than hate on the body of Christ.

 

[PeterJens]

I look at movements from a distance.
What is the fruit of their teaching?

Sin, greed, covetousness, magic forth telling of ones future, lack of repentance, lack of
a desire to walk in love and righteousness, blasphemy ("little gods theology"), a lottery
view of giving, spiritual manifestations are ok no matter how odd because they are in
church.

Now when you talk theology with these folk, love is very low down on their lists and
the spiritual gifts and spiritual encounters are very high. Though spiritual things in praising
God is very important, this is seeking a spiritual encounter in terms of emotional feedback
above and beyond truth, Christ and reality.

 

[Ariel82]

They start these threads over and over. They get us to fight. They know there are charismatics such as myself in the membership.

Joel is an encourager. I usually enjoy listening to him.

I see their "proof" he is a heretic. Yes,all cessationists hate us,and mock us,and lampoon us. It is their way. It is their fruit.

1. I started this thread and I have nothing against Charismatics.

2. The thread isn't about Joel though he is mentioned and I can't control what others post. The point was not to lampoon anyone but have a discussion about it Hagin taught biblically or if his false teachings corrupted the word of God.

3. I am not a cessationist and believe in the gifts of the spirit and that God still heals and speaks with us. I also believe in discernment and prayer.

4. I thought Pentecostals were charismatic? All the ones I meet in real life are. Stephen is Pentecostal

5. Which "proof" are you referring to?
Do you believe in seed money to make money?
That God promises you a promotion and health and wealth of you just believe and give Joel money?

 

[Grace777x70]

There is always a ditch on both sides of the road in truth. Some will take it to extreme and the Lord will bring them back. Then there are those that disrespect others that have a different view of scriptures as if their personal doctrine is 100% correct.

It's just their malice acting up because some one else views an interpretation of some subject differently then they or their group do. Then they feel that they have the right to slander others in the body of Christ because of this difference in interpretation.

It is foul behavior fueled by the flesh and the enemy to cause strife and division. They try to mask their malice and slander under the disguise of "defending the faith and rightly dividing the word of truth" - when in reality they are biting and devouring those in the body of Christ that view some things differently then they do.

These are baby Christians as 1 Peter 2:1-2 shows. Their behavior gives their age in the Lord away. There is nothing wrong with being a baby Christians - we just don't act like them nor listen to their malice, deceit, slander being spewed out on others.

It doesn't matter if they have been a Christian for 50 years, pastor a church for 30 years, read Greek and Hebrew/ have memorized 1/2 of the NT. Their behavior reveals their true spiritual age in the Lord.

It's time for us all to grow up in the Lord and put away this foul behavior. It's time to grow in the grace of Christ and put on Christ so people can see the Lord.

1 Peter 2:1-2 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Therefore, putting aside all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander,

[SUP]2 [/SUP] like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation,

 

[Ariel82]

I look at movements from a distance.
What is the fruit of their teaching?

Sin, greed, covetousness, magic forth telling of ones future, lack of repentance, lack of
a desire to walk in love and righteousness, blasphemy ("little gods theology"), a lottery
view of giving, spiritual manifestations are ok no matter how odd because they are in
church.

Now when you talk theology with these folk, love is very low down on their lists and
the spiritual gifts and spiritual encounters are very high. Though spiritual things in praising
God is very important, this is seeking a spiritual encounter in terms of emotional feedback
above and beyond truth, Christ and reality.

I think the root of it is the misapplication of the concept of soul and spirit.

In the Hebrew the innermost being is called the soul. The breath of life given by God is refered to as the soul, but gets translated into Greek as the spirit of man.

The Greek has a word that means mind and soul. So people who don't know Greek or Hebrew can get confused about what is being spoken of.

Hagin then teaches that the spirit is made new or born again but the mind must be made to conform to what the spirit is saying.

Which on the surface sounds fine.

However upon closer examination is wrong because people come to the false conclusion their minds are evil and that logic isn't good and then instead of using their minds to discern good and evil and test the spirits folks just lean upon their "experiences"

If you allow spiritual experiences to shape your mind without using diacerment to see if those spirits are from God, you get chaos and doctrines of demons being promoted as from God.

 

[Ariel82]

There is always a ditch on both sides of the road in truth. Some will take it to extreme and the Lord will bring them back. Then there are those that disrespect others that have a different view of scriptures as if their personal doctrine is 100% correct.

It's just their malice acting up because some one else views an interpretation of some subject differently then they or their group do. Then they feel that they have the right to slander others in the body of Christ because of this difference in interpretation.

It is foul behavior fueled by the flesh and the enemy to cause strife and division. They try to mask their malice and slander under the disguise of "defending the faith and rightly dividing the word of truth" - when in reality they are biting and devouring those in the body of Christ that view some things differently then they do.

These are baby Christians as 1 Peter 2:1-2 shows. Their behavior gives their age in the Lord away. There is nothing wrong with being a baby Christians - we just don't act like them nor listen to their malice, deceit, slander being spewed out on others.

It doesn't matter if they have been a Christian for 50 years, pastor a church for 30 years, read Greek and Hebrew/ have memorized 1/2 of the NT. Their behavior reveals their true spiritual age in the Lord.

It's time for us all to grow up in the Lord and put away this foul behavior. It's time to grow in the grace of Christ and put on Christ so people can see the Lord.

1 Peter 2:1-2 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Therefore, putting aside all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander,

[SUP]2 [/SUP] like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation,

Ignoring babies is called child neglect.

However I did tell my toddler to leave the baby alone when they were younger.

 

[Ariel82]

Of course the Lord wants me to live decently in this life... that's not something that should be put before the Lord as an idol, but none the less He is my Provider and He has blessed me financially and in every area of life much more than I deserve which has enabled me to help a lot of other people along the way not as unto good works but unto God loves them and He has the right to command me to give to others as He leads.

On the other hand, there are some that believe God doesn't want us to have hardly anything and so... they live on barely get by street and don't help anyone much due to needing help themselves.

Plenty of scripture in the Word that demonstrates the Lord desires to bless His people in every area of life... but, He is opposed to people making an idol out of "what can God do for me!" mentality.

So, who amongst us believes God wants us to be poor and WHY are you not giving ALL your stuff away and living under a bridge somewhere to show yourself as being "humble" before the Lord???

Yee haw, let's hear it for broke, busted, and disgusted!

Blessed is the poor in spirit.

Everything I have God has given me in stewardship and trust.

I don't live under a bridge because God has given me a responsibility to care for His wealth and give to those who need it, but only as much as they can handle.

Some people waste God's blessings on drugs and sex, but God tells us how to handle money.

I have another thread om the topic. Too long to repost.

Sermon by John Wesley about how we "earn all we can, save all we can, and give all we can"

 

[Stephen63]

Matthew 7:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

Matthew 21:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] "And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive."

Luke 11:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] "So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

Does all things specifically mean anything? Or does it mean all the things you ask for?

Note the scripture:

1John 5: 13These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests which we have asked from Him.

When we seek first the kingdom of God, & His righteousness, all these things you need shall be added unto you.

Seeking God first, & seeking His righteousness first, means a lot of things we want must be thrown out.

 

[PeterJens]

It's just their malice acting up because some one else views an interpretation of some subject differently then they or their group do. Then they feel that they have the right to slander others in the body of Christ because of this difference in interpretation.

It is foul behavior fueled by the flesh and the enemy to cause strife and division. They try to mask their malice and slander under the disguise of "defending the faith and rightly dividing the word of truth" - when in reality they are biting and devouring those in the body of Christ that view some things differently then they do.

It is always possible people do actually hate certain aspects of life and beliefs because
of bad experiences they have had.

Equally it could be people have been burn and hurt deeply by groups and their unbalanced
approach.

Unless the issues are brought out into the open and discussed no movement can truly claim
to walk in the light.

 

[Grace777x70]

Ignoring babies is called child neglect.

However I did tell my toddler to leave the baby alone when they were younger.

We ignore their behavior and do not emulate it as if it is a good thing. We are not ignoring them as if they are not believers anymore - just their foul behavior. There is a difference.

Paul says that sometimes it comes down to avoid them entirely and don't interact with them.

Because of 1 Cor. 15:33 and then this can happen too in Heb. 12:15.

Romans 16:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

Galatians 5:15-16 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.

[SUP]16 [/SUP] But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

 

[Stephen63]

What a shame you have nothing better to do than hate on the body of Christ.

Sorry, friend, but the real shame is you don't know who's in the Body of Christ.

I must agree with one of those pics that said if you can pray for anything, you should pray for discernment.

 

[PeterJens]

Hatred

When people claim another just hates them, this is a low point.
It is usually used by people who want censorship and have no respect for the opposition
no matter their issues.

Now for sensitive people to be accused of hatred is difficult to take, because it is so brutal
and violent. But take heart, for such did they accuse Christ of as well, and if you walk in
the way of Jesus, so will these accusations follow you, so Praise the Lord that He counts
you worthy of being compared to His Son, amen.

 

[PeterJens]

We ignore their behavior and do not emulate it as if it is a good thing. We are not ignoring them as if they are not believers anymore - just their foul behavior. There is a difference.

Paul says that sometimes it comes down to avoid them entirely and don't interact with them.

Because of 1 Cor. 15:33 and then this can happen too in Heb. 12:15.

Romans 16:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

Galatians 5:15-16 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.

[SUP]16 [/SUP] But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

g7 spends his days avoiding people, you would wonder how he is still here, lol. And
his continuous contribution is to pour hatred accusations on others, a real non blessing.

 

[1ofthem]

Does all things specifically mean anything? Or does it mean all the things you ask for?

Note the scripture:

1John 5: 13These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests which we have asked from Him.

When we seek first the kingdom of God, & His righteousness, all these things you need shall be added unto you.

Seeking God first, & seeking His righteousness first, means a lot of things we want must be thrown out.

I agree. God does not give us everything we want.
James 4
3 [FONT=&quot]Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.[/FONT]

 

[preacher4truth]

Kind of difficult for the likes of many on here as they spend umpteen hours per day arguing, and pulling Scripture out of context to argue, deceiving and being deceived, coming up with errant beliefs at a whim/ad lib as to whatever pops in their heads and never able to receive any correction. Some of them need to crack open their dusty Scriptures and some good dead trees from some solid men of God. And pray. Very little prayer going on and even less true learning and study.

 

[preacher4truth]

g7 spends his days avoiding people, you would wonder how he is still here, lol. And
his continuous contribution is to pour hatred accusations on others, a real non blessing.

Yes, he does, he's a false teacher and preaches prosperity gospel, not the Gospel. As for you Peter, you spend your time telling other forum members they are lost.

 

[joaniemarie]

Ignoring babies is called child neglect.

However I did tell my toddler to leave the baby alone when they were younger.

It's not how much of the law we know and do and live that makes us mature in Christ. It's understanding the gospel of grace and truth that Jesus brought us and applying by grace through faith how much we are loved by Him because of Jesus. Knowing we are secure in Christ will give us the strength by grace through faith to walk out our Christian lives here.

We humans understand the law and it's principles. Everyone who understands how to work knows if you work hard you will gain. If you do wrong you will get wrong in your life. Especially those of us who have a strong work ethic in life.

Grace is something mature believers understand. It takes faith to believe that Jesus gave us all we need to go before the Father. To understand that we don't deserve all we have IN Christ and yet we have everything IN Christ. That takes a supernatural faith. It goes against everything our flesh has learned. Only the Holy Spirit can teach us about grace., unearned unconditional love given as a gift from Jesus Himself. We can't earn it for salvation or for daily living our Christian lives. We need to know about grace and truth every day.

 

[Ariel82]

We ignore their behavior and do not emulate it as if it is a good thing. We are not ignoring them as if they are not believers anymore - just their foul behavior. There is a difference.

Paul says that sometimes it comes down to avoid them entirely and don't interact with them.

Because of 1 Cor. 15:33 and then this can happen too in Heb. 12:15.

Romans 16:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

Galatians 5:15-16 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.

[SUP]16 [/SUP] But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

Yet I don't see it happening.

Most people throw a fit about how they present information and never get around to addressing the points they raise.

Then tell everyone watching how much more mature they are.

Looks to me like a toddler complaining about the baby.,,

Some time the baby has a point.

 

[Ariel82]

Kind of difficult for the likes of many on here as they spend umpteen hours per day arguing, and pulling Scripture out of context to argue, deceiving and being deceived, coming up with errant beliefs at a whim/ad lib as to whatever pops in their heads and never able to receive any correction. Some of them need to crack open their dusty Scriptures and some good dead trees from some solid men of God. And pray. Very little prayer going on and even less true learning and study.

It would be easier if folks stop attacking each other and showed heavenly wisdom and maturity in Christ,

Yet because I am a woman and younger than most of the men fighting, I doubt anyone will listen to me.

You know I have better things to do then watch grown men fight,.,gonna go study pray and other things God called me to do.