KING JAMES VERSION BIBLE VS. MODERN ENGLISH BIBLES
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So, what do you make of what I said at the top of this post? That the KJV manuscripts, BECAUSE THEY WERE CORRUPT, was missing a sigma - one letter, in Luke 2:14, and it turned a statement of God giving peace to believers into universalism.
Really, you don't need to know anything. Despite Joseppi's claim that this is not about universalism, there is no other way you can take it, if you use the KJV. God gives peace to all men, as the KJV wrongly states, or God gives peace to those whom he favours, as every other translation states.
Or, perhaps you are both universalists, and you believe everyone is saved, because of Jesus birth, rather than those who believe? My mom is a universalist. She wants everyone to be saved, even if they don't believe, or hate Jesus. I asked her, "So you want to be in heaven with unrepentant murderers or rapists?" She walked away stunned at the implications of this.
Of course, the Bible, and certainly the KJV doesn't teach that all men will be saved. Only those who believe will be saved! God's favour certainly does not rest on every evil and vile sinner who ever lived.
" That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.[FONT="]10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Romans 10:9-10 KJV
Instead of looking at this error objectively, you both fall back on "The KJV is perfect, and that settles it." When people show you many errors, even between KJV's over the years, you still fall back to using the KJV as the bar, instead of the original languages.
Well, there is no sense going around the block with people who hold onto their delusions so strongly. I will leave it in God's hands, as I decided to leave the Word Faith people, after pleading with them to properly read the Bible, in God's hands.
The fact is - The KJV is a good, if obsolete and archaic, translation of the Bible, but with mistakes and errors. Other translations have their issues. God will use any version, in any language to save us, to teach us, to transform us and to communicate his Word.
The KJV is only one of many, and one that too many people simply do not understand. How much better to read a modern version, and be able to understand not only what is written, but to have all those mistakes and errors in the KJV corrected. Nothing worse than corrupted texts. I bet if you took that translation committee and showed them the earlier manuscripts, they would have a revision committee going to correct all the mistakes they had, because they did not have access to the better manuscripts.
As for me, I will worship Jesus, who is God, not a translation of the Bible in any language or version. And yet, I love and respect the Bible, for revealing Jesus and his plan for humanity!
As for you Joseppi, you have contributed absolutely nothing, but strong and incorrect language about a Bible translation. If you feel a modern version is corrupted, feel free to compare it to the Greek, and we will see what we come up with. [/FONT]
Really, you don't need to know anything. Despite Joseppi's claim that this is not about universalism, there is no other way you can take it, if you use the KJV. God gives peace to all men, as the KJV wrongly states, or God gives peace to those whom he favours, as every other translation states.
Or, perhaps you are both universalists, and you believe everyone is saved, because of Jesus birth, rather than those who believe? My mom is a universalist. She wants everyone to be saved, even if they don't believe, or hate Jesus. I asked her, "So you want to be in heaven with unrepentant murderers or rapists?" She walked away stunned at the implications of this.
Of course, the Bible, and certainly the KJV doesn't teach that all men will be saved. Only those who believe will be saved! God's favour certainly does not rest on every evil and vile sinner who ever lived.
" That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.[FONT="]10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Romans 10:9-10 KJV
Instead of looking at this error objectively, you both fall back on "The KJV is perfect, and that settles it." When people show you many errors, even between KJV's over the years, you still fall back to using the KJV as the bar, instead of the original languages.
Well, there is no sense going around the block with people who hold onto their delusions so strongly. I will leave it in God's hands, as I decided to leave the Word Faith people, after pleading with them to properly read the Bible, in God's hands.
The fact is - The KJV is a good, if obsolete and archaic, translation of the Bible, but with mistakes and errors. Other translations have their issues. God will use any version, in any language to save us, to teach us, to transform us and to communicate his Word.
The KJV is only one of many, and one that too many people simply do not understand. How much better to read a modern version, and be able to understand not only what is written, but to have all those mistakes and errors in the KJV corrected. Nothing worse than corrupted texts. I bet if you took that translation committee and showed them the earlier manuscripts, they would have a revision committee going to correct all the mistakes they had, because they did not have access to the better manuscripts.
As for me, I will worship Jesus, who is God, not a translation of the Bible in any language or version. And yet, I love and respect the Bible, for revealing Jesus and his plan for humanity!
As for you Joseppi, you have contributed absolutely nothing, but strong and incorrect language about a Bible translation. If you feel a modern version is corrupted, feel free to compare it to the Greek, and we will see what we come up with. [/FONT]
I'm a Christian, I'm not any ism.
Luke 2:14 is a restatement of verse 10. Good tidings, which in the KJV is the same thing as good news which means gospel. Those good tidings are being pronounced on ALL people.
Is verse 10 is a mistranslation too? The "good tidings" is the "good will", the gospel mesage that Christ brought to the world. So no I don't think it's an error.
[h=1]Luke 2:10 King James Version (KJV)[/h]10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
Luke 2:14 is a restatement of verse 10. Good tidings, which in the KJV is the same thing as good news which means gospel. Those good tidings are being pronounced on ALL people.
Is verse 10 is a mistranslation too? The "good tidings" is the "good will", the gospel mesage that Christ brought to the world. So no I don't think it's an error.
[h=1]Luke 2:10 King James Version (KJV)[/h]10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
Not only do the Majority of all existing Greek manuscripts read as does the KJB - "good will to men" - but so also do mss. E, G, H, K, L, M, P, S, U, V, Gamma, Delta, Theta, Lambda, Xi, Psi, Y, Omega and many others.
It is also the reading found in the Coptic Boharic, Armenian, Ethiopic, Georgian and Slavonic ancient versions as well as the Syriac Harclean and Sinaitic. The Syriac Peshitta is messed up here and reads "good HOPE to men", and so reads Lamsa's translation of the Syriac Peshitta.
It is quoted as "good will to men" by such early church writers as Eusebius, Basil, Gregory-Nazianzus, Didymus, Epiphanius, Chrysostom, Severian, Cyril, Procius, Theodotus and Theodoret.
First of all, there are by nature no "men of good will". We are all rebels by birth, haters of God who are dead in our sins and trespasses. "There is none that doeth good, no, not one", "There is none that seeketh after God", "There is none righteous, no, not one" - Romans chapter three.
God's good will is extended toward men in that He provided a Saviour from sin and hell, and for those who receive Him there is peace right now on this earth even in the midst of all the turmoil and difficulties.
"For He is our peace...so making peace...and came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh." Ephesians 2:14-17.
"Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid." John 14:27.
"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Romans 5:1.
The King James Bible is correct - as always. The NASB, NIV, ISV, ESV, NET all had to totally paraphrase the text they were following in order to avoid the obvious theological error it promotes. The Sinaiticus/Vaticanus copies were seen to be deficient and corrected by later scribes.
It is also the reading found in the Coptic Boharic, Armenian, Ethiopic, Georgian and Slavonic ancient versions as well as the Syriac Harclean and Sinaitic. The Syriac Peshitta is messed up here and reads "good HOPE to men", and so reads Lamsa's translation of the Syriac Peshitta.
It is quoted as "good will to men" by such early church writers as Eusebius, Basil, Gregory-Nazianzus, Didymus, Epiphanius, Chrysostom, Severian, Cyril, Procius, Theodotus and Theodoret.
First of all, there are by nature no "men of good will". We are all rebels by birth, haters of God who are dead in our sins and trespasses. "There is none that doeth good, no, not one", "There is none that seeketh after God", "There is none righteous, no, not one" - Romans chapter three.
God's good will is extended toward men in that He provided a Saviour from sin and hell, and for those who receive Him there is peace right now on this earth even in the midst of all the turmoil and difficulties.
"For He is our peace...so making peace...and came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh." Ephesians 2:14-17.
"Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid." John 14:27.
"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Romans 5:1.
The King James Bible is correct - as always. The NASB, NIV, ISV, ESV, NET all had to totally paraphrase the text they were following in order to avoid the obvious theological error it promotes. The Sinaiticus/Vaticanus copies were seen to be deficient and corrected by later scribes.
It could be a restatement of verse 10, if it was in the nominative. However, the better manuscripts put it in the Genitive! Ooops! I forgot, you don’t know what that means.
And all the world (as in those who know Jesus) did rejoice, when the Messiah came. But, you cannot have God’s peace, unless you are saved. That means believing. So no, the KJV is wrong, exegetically and theologically, and therefore not a perfect version.
Which reminds me, how many times have I talked about bad theology coming out of the KJV? Of course, I was thinking more about Word Faith and other cults like the JW’s, the Mormans which use the KJV. I wasn’t thinking of universalism, which is not generally accepted by most people except the most apostate groups, including the Unitarian Universalists.
Or, do you think that all people will be saved, without believing? This is not an "ism" debate. It is about are all people saved, as the KJV claims in Luke 2:14, or do we have to believe, however we come to that faith and belief.
And all the world (as in those who know Jesus) did rejoice, when the Messiah came. But, you cannot have God’s peace, unless you are saved. That means believing. So no, the KJV is wrong, exegetically and theologically, and therefore not a perfect version.
Which reminds me, how many times have I talked about bad theology coming out of the KJV? Of course, I was thinking more about Word Faith and other cults like the JW’s, the Mormans which use the KJV. I wasn’t thinking of universalism, which is not generally accepted by most people except the most apostate groups, including the Unitarian Universalists.
Or, do you think that all people will be saved, without believing? This is not an "ism" debate. It is about are all people saved, as the KJV claims in Luke 2:14, or do we have to believe, however we come to that faith and belief.
Here's what I believe. I believe the peace on earth and good will to all IS the gospel. Whether people chose that free gift or not is up to the individual. I don't believe all people will accept or have accepted the free gift and I believe some have and will die in their sin. But regardless of the decision, the good will offering was to ALL people and that is good news to all.
Here's the kicker... you believe exactly the same thing lol. And you know the good will offering and peace on earth was offered to ALL people, not just the "chosen ones" or whatever the NIV called them.
But if you insist on believing the copies of copies of copies of extinct manuscripts instead of the truth that you know the KJV presents in the verse, then that's your right. But don't say the KJV is wrong because it doesn't match the copies of copies of copies that MAY or MAY not say what the originals said.
That's what I believe.
Here's the kicker... you believe exactly the same thing lol. And you know the good will offering and peace on earth was offered to ALL people, not just the "chosen ones" or whatever the NIV called them.
But if you insist on believing the copies of copies of copies of extinct manuscripts instead of the truth that you know the KJV presents in the verse, then that's your right. But don't say the KJV is wrong because it doesn't match the copies of copies of copies that MAY or MAY not say what the originals said.
That's what I believe.
What weak attempt to try and refute me.
First, by experience and from Scripture, God does not send peacevto the lost. That is part of our inheritance as believers. A lost person may find a type of peace, but it is not the peace of God! So no, I do not believe the same thing as you, Jesus died for those he called, not for those who do not believe!
Second, your late, corrupted TR manuscripts are the copies of copies of copies. Perhaps you didn’t know the KJV was translated from Hebrew and Grerk? Not even close to real inspiration in the KJV!
First, by experience and from Scripture, God does not send peacevto the lost. That is part of our inheritance as believers. A lost person may find a type of peace, but it is not the peace of God! So no, I do not believe the same thing as you, Jesus died for those he called, not for those who do not believe!
Second, your late, corrupted TR manuscripts are the copies of copies of copies. Perhaps you didn’t know the KJV was translated from Hebrew and Grerk? Not even close to real inspiration in the KJV!