Law keeping?

[devoiler]

Just wrote the following poem that was inspired by the subject of this thread.

I came across a bee trapped in a spider's web.
He thought I was his foe and the spider his friend.

No said he, when I said I'd set him free, don't do that!
The spider promised me sweet nectar and a new top hat.

Bee, I said, listen to me this will surely be your end
But the bee being a stubborn bee could not comprehend

 

[TMS]

When was the old covenant put in place?
How was it ratified?
When was the new covenant put in place?
How was it ratified?

 

[TMS]

Is it okay to keep the law knowing that you have been freed from the transgressions you have done and will do?

 

[TMS]

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Love, what is love,? to think about the law or to do it?
Or throw it away?
To fulfill it.

 

[Rightlydivided]

Being more then less "borne and bred" within "the church", from younger then I can actually remember. And seeing "first hand", and in many instances, the members thereof, and in several churches Ma n Pa, had took me to over the course of several years, who focused on the "law of love", to the "detriment" of the remaining "fruit of the Spirit", and grieving the Holy Spirit in this "focus upon following", that this "law of love" "de-evolved" into an Every Sin is covered, DOCTRINE! This doctrine is what is KILLING "Churches of stone!" And, needs to stop!
Elst we find ourselves, as the "many" who Christ, in that day, will state He never knew us!

Where Christ's "finished work" on the Cross ends? Is where the believer's "WORK/s", BEGINS! Not ends!

It is indeed unfortunate, not everyone can see this as such. What IS seen, is this "Works = Salvation" issue!

What I see as "quanity over quality?" Others, see "Hey!" "This is GREAT!"

Which is no wise provoking Israel to jealousy!

For it was "TO THIS END", the Gospel was given UNTO "us gentiles", in the "Second" place! Right? RIGHT??

Or, am I missing something here?

I’ll say this,

What would provoke one child to be jealous over the other?

I do not believe he was speaking of envy...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I simply cannot believe that Christians are so anti-God that they preach against His word if they find anything in the word that guides them to a Godly life.

So you hate yourself? Thats too bad.

[/quote]They all have the same chant against God's word of law saying it can't save and always following that is the idea of throw it all out if it won't save you, it is the one thing they want it to be good for.

Or they tell of some legalistic way of obedience, saying being that is not real obedience throw the whole shebang out. Then they announce they are going to Christ for forgiveness--and heaven forbid they should add repentance to that. They think repentance takes work and "work won't save" so repentance has to go!!

Heaven forbid!!!!!![/QUOTE]
So i should be like the jews and try to add law to grace and as paul said basically negate grace. Instead of doing like Jesus himself said, and paul spoke of and love God and all people, and seek after the things of the spirit, and By DOING THESE THINGS by nature not break the law.

Good luck with your legalism my friend, you can have it, me? i will follow my saviors example.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If you believe in scripture then you MUIST have it both ways.

Seems scripture disagrees!

Romans 4:4
Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Scripture does NOT say that because your works won't save you, don't work!!!! Scripture tells us that if we love Christ we will follow His commandments, and Christ and the Father are one.

Yep, and i say the same thing, and your continued lies and slander saying i do not are getting quite tiresom, and just goes prove your not hear to have honest discussion,.

Not only are we to follow the commandments as Moses gave it, but Christ carefully explained the spirit of the law that was to be added to it. It isn't enough not to commit the sin, but we are to keep our hearts and minds away from sin.

I am not saying it is ok to sin, i am saying jesus told us HOW to not break the commands, and it is NOT by following thr law of moses, its by following the law of the spirit and Love. Something the lawyers in this room fail to understand.

 

[NayborBear]

You cant have it both ways,

Either salvation is by grace, or it is by works. (In fact paul makes this very declaration)

Saying works do not save, but lack of work may cause us to lose salvation is like saying you were given a gift, meaning you do not have to pay for it, it was paid in full, but later if you do not pay for it, you will lose it.

I understand this is a hard concept, especially to people who think their works means something, but its true

Yes, works help us to maturity, but even the bible says some will remain babes, and still others, when all their work is tried by fire will have nothing, but even they, will still be saved, even thouh as through fire.

If you want to teach how to get to maturity through works of faith, i will be with you, if you want to demand these works are requird else we wil lose salvation, I will be against you, as will God, because it turns his grace to legalism. Which is just as evil as those who turn his grace to licentiousness. Both oare steeped in pride!

Let me try it this way, EG. Allow me, if you will, in defining "works." Works, are "Conscious efforts", in either the outward "man", or within one's own mind, heart, soul, spirit.

God's Grace in the sending of His only begotten Son, Jesus! The "whosoever will, MAY come" part? Takes BELIEVING! Believing, or faith? REQUIRES EFFORT! Meaning, if/when one "chooses" TO "believe?", Then one must CONSCIOUSLY "WORK" One's OWN choices within oneself, in the "EFFORT/S REQUIRED" in the "picking and choosing", if you will, those thoughts, ideas, traditions, etc., that NEGATIVELY IMPACT, one's EFFORTS, in, or TO one's faith, that is REQUIRED, for one TO believe! Are these not works? Of course they are!
Although, God Himself, has "liscense" in arranging one's circumstances in one's life, in the getting one TO Jesus? EFFORTS, are STILL required, FROM said individual, TO believe! And, THEN?

 

[NayborBear]

(cont'd..........dangit!...Hate when that happens)

TO "accept!"
LEGALISM? Is the OUTWARD "appearance" of an inward "change", that DIDN'T HAPPEN!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Let me try it this way, EG. Allow me, if you will, in defining "works." Works, are "Conscious efforts", in either the outward "man", or within one's own mind, heart, soul, spirit.

I have to go with the scriptural defenition of works

1. One who does works can boast, ie, be proud of their work, or take credit for the work (not of works lest anyone should boast)
2. The end results is debt (if abraham was found by works, it is not counted as grace but debt)
3. A work is something to do to earn something (a wage or reward)

So if one says works are required to gain or maintain salvation, they are
1. Boasting of their works
2. Accumulating debt, not grace.
3. Trying to earn a reward, not recieve a gift.

People can twist it however they want, but this is what scripture says.

Now, we are told we are to work to earn reward, in fact our works will be tried by fire. And we can earn these things by our works, but that is not salvation, salvation is by grace, because you can work 24/7 365 days a year and you will still fall short, that is what those who claim we must work to maintain salvation fail to comprehend, you can never do enough work to maintain your salvation, just one sin and you fall short. And your works are counted as dung, and will not be accepted by christ as payment for your sin.

God's Grace in the sending of His only begotten Son, Jesus! The "whosoever will, MAY come" part? Takes BELIEVING! Believing, or faith? REQUIRES EFFORT! Meaning, if/when one "chooses" TO "believe?", Then one must CONSCIOUSLY "WORK" One's OWN choices within oneself, in the "EFFORT/S REQUIRED" in the "picking and choosing", if you will, those thoughts, ideas, traditions, etc., that NEGATIVELY IMPACT, one's EFFORTS, in, or TO one's faith, that is REQUIRED, for one TO believe! Are these not works? Of course they are!
Although, God Himself, has "liscense" in arranging one's circumstances in one's life, in the getting one TO Jesus? EFFORTS, are STILL required, FROM said individual, TO believe! And, THEN?

You need to read what jesus said. It is the work of God we believe, the work is not trusting. having faith in God is falling to the point of bancruptcy (total brokenness).

It takes much greater work to continue to hold on to your pride and refuse to acknowledge you have nothing to offer God to help save yourself, its against human nature, thats why so few end up doing it, and the gate is so narrow. god must break us. But he will not force us, again, it takes more work to resist Gods grace, than to just fall on our knees and call out because we have fully repented and have place else to turn.

Its easy to fall on works, because we can see, falling on faith in things unseen? that goes against our nature.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

(cont'd..........dangit!...Hate when that happens)

TO "accept!"
LEGALISM? Is the OUTWARD "appearance" of an inward "change", that DIDN'T HAPPEN!

Legalism is plainly saying our salvation in the end depends on things (works) we do, and rejecting what God said through paul, not by any good work we have done, but by his mercy, God saved us. As paul said, he has perfected FOREVER those who are in the process of being sanctified,

Santification includes Works are a result of a new life, a new heart and a new soul, (sanctification) as we work out what God gave us, out of the faith which saved us, and we will be rewarded for those works, and suffer loss for the times we do not work, but salvation is NEVER a result of those works.period!

 

[NayborBear]

I’ll say this,

What would provoke one child to be jealous over the other?

I do not believe he was speaking of envy...

Well now? That's a very good question! I'm glad I asked it!

One would think wouldn't one, that saving their collective asses from extinction in the gas chambers of WWII, may have given them "eyes to see", that, the "punishment, or sin" upon our children and children's children, stated during the "Crucifixion Trial" of Jesus? Was OVER! That God was over His fury, and wrath, with Israel. And? Had "chosen" to give Israel back their own country again? By means, of the United Nations? Which, in "these eyes", just BLOWS the "cessionists", AND THEIR DOCTRINE? RIGHT OUT OF THE WATER!! Which shows, just how "short-sided" this blindness has caused "Churchianty" to become in these "several states!" And, how polluting, and corrupting, this "doctrine" has steered the entire planet in apostasy! Ya know, "HIS-STORY", is NOT over yet! Just because many (and, I use the term loosely) Christians, via "traditions of men" which
MAKES VOID, the Word of God, say it is! "Oh yeah!" "It IS!" "We've read the back of the book!" "WE WIN!!" "We Won't HAVE to lift a FINGER!" "Just BELIEVE!"
OH!!....Cont'rare Mo'Frair's! Cont'rare!! GOD WINS!! That doesn't NECESSARILY mean "YOU/WE/THEY" win!!! Or, "I" win, for that matter!

If, or when, these "cessessionists" and "rapture" people, get off the self-righteous pedestals they have set themselves upon, and start "inwardly" drilling down, into the MEAT of God's Word? (1Timothy 6:20,21) The closer, we shall come in provoking Israel to jealousy, or anger!

So, the "fullness of the gentiles?" Has everything to do with this! Elst, I wouldn't be here!

What are your views on this matter?

 

[NayborBear]

Legalism is plainly saying our salvation in the end depends on things (works) we do, and rejecting what God said through paul, not by any good work we have done, but by his mercy, God saved us. As paul said, he has perfected FOREVER those who are in the process of being sanctified,

Santification includes Works are a result of a new life, a new heart and a new soul, (sanctification) as we work out what God gave us, out of the faith which saved us, and we will be rewarded for those works, and suffer loss for the times we do not work, but salvation is NEVER a result of those works.period!

Ok, EG! I "got it!" You don't "get it!"

You "get", we are saved by grace through faith, and no works are required for spiritual maturity! BECAUSE they are gifts! And, I "get" that is how you see it. And, no "efforts, or works" are required on your part. Lest you should boast! Perhaps, is best you don't "get it" then. You simply ask God to make you an apostle, or prophet, or teacher, or healer, or interpreter? God "snaps" His fingers, and POOF! You ARE! No WORKS, OR EFFORTS required on YOUR part! Lest you should boast! RIGHT?

What you "don't" get, is the 6,000+ YEARS of apostasy that has brought us here TO this point in time of this current earth/heaven age!

But? That's OK, EG! You keep waving that "P" banner in tulip, for the preservation of the saints. For it seems this is your way of answering your calling from God. And, that's cool!

What I, and others are trying to explain to you, is that we are answering our calling, as well. And, like so many other christians in this body of Christ, is like what Paul was teaching? The hand is saying to the foot....You are not of us! What "need" have I of you! Or "for" you, for that matter.

IOW, just because one part of the body of Christ cannot see another part? Does not make that "other" part wrong. Does it?

 

[Tim416]

If, or when, these "cessessionists" and "rapture" people, get off the self-righteous pedestals they have set themselves upon, and start "inwardly" drilling down, into the MEAT of God's Word? (1Timothy 6:20,21) The closer, we shall come in provoking Israel to jealousy, or anger!

I hope you are patient, you might have a long wait. 1Cor8:2 would be apt for those you just described

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ok, EG! I "got it!" You don't "get it!"

Whatever dude, your the one who does not get it

You "get", we are saved by grace through faith, and no works are required for spiritual maturity!

And like those before you, you lie, i never said such a thing, in fact if you had truely read, you would have seen

. As paul said, he has perfected FOREVER those who are in the process of being sanctified,

Santification includes Works are a result of a new life, a new heart and a new soul, (sanctification) as we work out what God gave us, out of the faith which saved us, and we will be rewarded for those works, and suffer loss for the times we do not work, but salvation is NEVER a result of those works.period!

Sanctification is the act of God working in us, and as we continue to grow in faith and become SPIRITUALLY Mature, by doing works, out of faith in God.

BECAUSE they are gifts!

What? Where do you come up with this nonsense? Is it too difficult for you to sit down and listen to what people say? I never said this either, further proof you have not listened to a word i have said.

And, I "get" that is how you see it. And, no "efforts, or works" are required on your part. Lest you should boast! Perhaps, is best you don't "get it" then. You simply ask God to make you an apostle, or prophet, or teacher, or healer, or interpreter? God "snaps" His fingers, and POOF! You ARE! No WORKS, OR EFFORTS required on YOUR part! Lest you should boast! RIGHT?

Now you being outright abusive and attacking what you cant understand. No, you do not see how the see it, you have utterly no idea of what i even said, i spoke f two ideas (salvation by grace, and sanctification by works) and like everyone else you can notunderstand the difference between the two. So you cant understand when people try to explain it to you, what a joke!

What you "don't" get, is the 6,000+ YEARS of apostasy that has brought us here TO this point in time of this current earth/heaven age!

You know whats sad, you have the same gospel as the agan, if we work god will forgive us, if we donot god will curse is. Good luck with that!

But? That's OK, EG! You keep waving that "P" banner in tulip, for the preservation of the saints. For it seems this is your way of answering your calling from God. And, that's cool!

Aww, the truth comes out, your blinded by calvinist views so you always read what people say with the thought f attacking them so you cant see whatthers say

I am not calvinist, thats why you cant understand a point i have made.

What I, and others are trying to explain to you, is that we are answering our calling, as well. And, like so many other christians in this body of Christ, is like what Paul was teaching? The hand is saying to the foot....You are not of us! What "need" have I of you! Or "for" you, for that matter.

IOW, just because one part of the body of Christ cannot see another part? Does not make that "other" part wrong. Does it?

You are not telling me anything

I believe and have told you and others our maturity and growth comes through works, as we continue to grow in faith. But you cant hear it because you have closed ears.

What you do not understand, is by makimg those works a requirement for salvation, and not a result of salvation, your preaching legalism. You just can. Ot understand the difference.

Well good luck with boasting of all your work to jesus when he asks why he should let you in.

Me, I will admit, He should not let me in, i deserve hell, but he promised if i had true saving faith in him (the faith which works) he will make me his child and give me eternal life.

You boast in yourself, i will boast in Christ.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I hope you are patient, you might have a long wait. 1Cor8:2 would be apt for those you just described

The rapture is not a salvation doctrine, so i agree, he will have to wait awhile, and also he is wrong about his conclusion. As he is with ao many other things

 

[Grandpa]

I give you God's truth, you try to make hash out of it.

Just what more do you want? I got up this AM at 7:30 and had breakfast with Ruth at 8:15? This is a Christian site to discuss God's truth, not me, and no one should be interested in such things of my personal life.

Answering the OP would be the perfect opportunity to show how you live Gods Truth.

But you would rather try to ridicule people?

Do unto others before they can do unto you... lol

 

[Rightlydivided]

Let me try it this way, EG. Allow me, if you will, in defining "works." Works, are "Conscious efforts", in either the outward "man", or within one's own mind, heart, soul, spirit.

God's Grace in the sending of His only begotten Son, Jesus! The "whosoever will, MAY come" part? Takes BELIEVING! Believing, or faith? REQUIRES EFFORT! Meaning, if/when one "chooses" TO "believe?", Then one must CONSCIOUSLY "WORK" One's OWN choices within oneself, in the "EFFORT/S REQUIRED" in the "picking and choosing", if you will, those thoughts, ideas, traditions, etc., that NEGATIVELY IMPACT, one's EFFORTS, in, or TO one's faith, that is REQUIRED, for one TO believe! Are these not works? Of course they are!
Although, God Himself, has "liscense" in arranging one's circumstances in one's life, in the getting one TO Jesus? EFFORTS, are STILL required, FROM said individual, TO believe! And, THEN?

Believing in the "work" that Christ did for us, is not "work", nor should it be characterized that way. Christ died for our sin,

Whatever dude, your the one who does not get it



And like those before you, you lie, i never said such a thing, in fact if you had truely read, you would have seen




Sanctification is the act of God working in us, and as we continue to grow in faith and become SPIRITUALLY Mature, by doing works, out of faith in God.



What? Where do you come up with this nonsense? Is it too difficult for you to sit down and listen to what people say? I never said this either, further proof you have not listened to a word i have said.



Now you being outright abusive and attacking what you cant understand. No, you do not see how the see it, you have utterly no idea of what i even said, i spoke f two ideas (salvation by grace, and sanctification by works) and like everyone else you can notunderstand the difference between the two. So you cant understand when people try to explain it to you, what a joke!



You know whats sad, you have the same gospel as the agan, if we work god will forgive us, if we donot god will curse is. Good luck with that!



Aww, the truth comes out, your blinded by calvinist views so you always read what people say with the thought f attacking them so you cant see whatthers say

I am not calvinist, thats why you cant understand a point i have made.



You are not telling me anything

I believe and have told you and others our maturity and growth comes through works, as we continue to grow in faith. But you cant hear it because you have closed ears.

What you do not understand, is by makimg those works a requirement for salvation, and not a result of salvation, your preaching legalism. You just can. Ot understand the difference.

Well good luck with boasting of all your work to jesus when he asks why he should let you in.

Me, I will admit, He should not let me in, i deserve hell, but he promised if i had true saving faith in him (the faith which works) he will make me his child and give me eternal life.

You boast in yourself, i will boast in Christ.

Well spoken!! Amen Eternal!

 

[Grandpa]

Ok, EG! I "got it!" You don't "get it!"

You "get", we are saved by grace through faith, and no works are required for spiritual maturity! BECAUSE they are gifts! And, I "get" that is how you see it. And, no "efforts, or works" are required on your part. Lest you should boast! Perhaps, is best you don't "get it" then. You simply ask God to make you an apostle, or prophet, or teacher, or healer, or interpreter? God "snaps" His fingers, and POOF! You ARE! No WORKS, OR EFFORTS required on YOUR part! Lest you should boast! RIGHT?

What you "don't" get, is the 6,000+ YEARS of apostasy that has brought us here TO this point in time of this current earth/heaven age!

But? That's OK, EG! You keep waving that "P" banner in tulip, for the preservation of the saints. For it seems this is your way of answering your calling from God. And, that's cool!

What I, and others are trying to explain to you, is that we are answering our calling, as well. And, like so many other christians in this body of Christ, is like what Paul was teaching? The hand is saying to the foot....You are not of us! What "need" have I of you! Or "for" you, for that matter.

IOW, just because one part of the body of Christ cannot see another part? Does not make that "other" part wrong. Does it?

Which part of the body is it that makes a mockery of Christianity and goes back to working at their favorite parts of Judaism?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well we see from nayborbear, he is more interested in pointing out my ipads autocorrect mistakes which i missed, than he is from understanding what i believe so in the future he does not bear false word tness about my belief system.

Then again, i guess i should not expect any different from my exience