lazarus and the rich man is a parable

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GreenNnice

Guest
#41
Mik:
Originally Posted by miktre

Tom
On the topic of the unsaved being tortured, hell and death are destroyed in the eternity. Who is saying they don't get destroyed?
Rev_20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev_20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
What makes you think you won't live through that tossing, Mik ?

I sure wouldn't put it past God, Mik, to keep those alive in that Lake of Fire, God's wratch does indeed burn against those that do NOT choose Him. Those choosing Not Him are obviously not afraid of dying in a little ole fire. Quick and painless, right !!

I personally think that the DEAD will not get off that QUICK . :( In fact, as I understand scripture that fire is EVERLASTING . I trhink I will be sadder now even, it is truly sad for those that do NOT choose Him, but I am not Judge, but He is :( :

God is a consuming fire, but that doesn't mean He is going to let everyone get off so easy as to burn to death, does it?
 
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miktre

Guest
#42
What makes you think you won't live through that tossing, Mik ?

I sure wouldn't put it past God, Mik, to keep those alive in that Lake of Fire, God's wratch does indeed burn against those that do NOT choose Him. Those choosing Not Him are obviously not afraid of dying in a little ole fire. Quick and painless, right !!

I personally think that the DEAD will not get off that QUICK . :( In fact, as I understand scripture that fire is EVERLASTING . I trhink I will be sadder now even, it is truly sad for those that do NOT choose Him, but I am not Judge, but He is :( :

God is a consuming fire, but that doesn't mean He is going to let everyone get off so easy as to burn to death, does it?
I suppose we will see.
 
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GreenNnice

Guest
#43
I suppose we will see.
Mik,, not just the fire is everlasting . Why would God have fire burn by itself forever?

Why do you think you get to die forever when you get cast into the lake of fire ? You= unbelievers

Do you think we are going to have an earthly body to.get burned up?

Think about all what I just said.
 
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miktre

Guest
#44
Mik,, not just the fire is everlasting . Why would God have fire burn by itself forever?

Why do you think you get to die forever when you get cast into the lake of fire ? You= unbelievers

Do you think we are going to have an earthly body to.get burned up?

Think about all what I just said.
okie dokie
 
G

GreenNnice

Guest
#45
Everlasting life.

The Som of Man will send out His angels, and, they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and, those who practice lawlessness.

And will cast them into the furnace fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. ' Matthew 13: 41-42.

Then the righteous will shine forth in the kingdom of their Father. ”

Listen, mik !

He who has ears to hear, let him.hear !

And , Jesus said this NOT in parable, these words Jesus said outside of parable, so, that can't be an argument for those that want to.

Again, Jesus again spoke a parable and then outside a parable re-emphasized that the angels will seperate the wicked from the just.

And wicked will be cast into the furnace of fire, mik, and, there will be...

...weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matt. 13:49-50

There not dying once hucked in that furnace, they are alive in a hatred state because they are seperated from.God and have a life of, well, I guess, we'll.stop.there. It is too :(
 
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miktre

Guest
#46
Everlasting life.

The Som of Man will send out His angels, and, they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and, those who practice lawlessness.

And will cast them into the furnace fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. ' Matthew 13: 41-42.

Then the righteous will shine forth in the kingdom of their Father. ”

Listen, mik !

He who has ears to hear, let him.hear !

And , Jesus said this NOT in parable, these words Jesus said outside of parable, so, that can't be an argument for those that want to.

Again, Jesus again spoke a parable and then outside a parable re-emphasized that the angels will seperate the wicked from the just.

And wicked will be cast into the furnace of fire, mik, and, there will be...

...weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matt. 13:49-50

There not dying once hucked in that furnace, they are alive in a hatred state because they are seperated from.God and have a life of, well, I guess, we'll.stop.there. It is too :(
You lost me, you seem to be inserting and arguing imaginary points that I never made. I believe in hell and you go there when you die and and are conscious. Okie dokie
 
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GreenNnice

Guest
#47
You lost me, you seem to be inserting and arguing imaginary points that I never made. I believe in hell and you go there when you die and and are conscious. Okie dokie
Ok, mik. Your not refuting, tombo, when he said that hell is not an ever-conscious place of torment for all unbelievers , had me thinking otherwise, no worrs, Christ bro .

People ! What are you able to think of reality that Jesus revealed His infinite understanding of the Kingdom in parables ONLY because they would not believe .

Matthew 13 is so clear why Jesus spoke in parables.

Where, show me one place where Jesus said parables are just stories. Never.

Scripture is clear: ”God is NOT the author of confusion .

Heaven and Hell are real places and the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man make it painfully clear that there is a place of good for God's people to be in now that die, and, also a 'gulf' that seperates the suffering
 
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miktre

Guest
#48
Ok, mik. Your not refuting, tombo, when he said that hell is not an ever-conscious place of torment for all unbelievers , had me thinking otherwise, no worrs, Christ bro .

People ! What are you able to think of reality that Jesus revealed His infinite understanding of the Kingdom in parables ONLY because they would not believe .

Matthew 13 is so clear why Jesus spoke in parables.

Where, show me one place where Jesus said parables are just stories. Never.

Scripture is clear: ”God is NOT the author of confusion .

Heaven and Hell are real places and the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man make it painfully clear that there is a place of good for God's people to be in now that die, and, also a 'gulf' that seperates the suffering
You lost me, you seem to be inserting and arguing imaginary points that I never made. I believe in hell and you go there when you die and and are conscious. Okie dokie
 
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humblemark57

Guest
#49
The OT does not teach unending conscious torment of the unsaved. The world sheol simply means pit or grave. It is the place of dead bodies. You would do well to get a concordance and look up the word hell, to see all of the original words that are translated as hell. See what the words really mean and base your conclusions on that.
I can take you through scores of verses in the NT that show the contrast between perishing and having eternal life.
Here are but two examples:

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life."

Notice the contrast between perishing and eternal life. If all people have eternal life to either live with God in heaven, or to suffer enending torment in hell, this verse would make no sense.

1 John 3:15 "Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."

If no murderer has eternal life abiding in him, how could he be punished forever?

I can show many more verses, but if you go through the Bible and look up hell, eternal life, etc., you will see it all for yourself.

You will not the see the apostle Paul speak anywhere in his letters about the unsaved being tortured forever. He always speaks of them as being destroyed.

God bless.

Tom

Act 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
Act 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.


Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

So, how would you contradicts God's Holy Words by believing there is no Hell?


Mar 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,621
281
83
#50
Good that this "2knowhim" was banned. Kudos for the modz!
 
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GreenNnice

Guest
#51
It is interesting, of all the [FONT=&quot]parables[/FONT] Jesus spoke, only one is commonly taught as being literal. What a wonder it is, that such a thing could go unnoticed for so long, and this in the ranks of intelligent people who claim they want the truth. That single parable has become a pervading factor in man's theology. It is a ruse that condemns the vast majority to a never ending realm of burning torment. That ill-applied parable, of course, is the one where [FONT=&quot]"a certain beggar called LAZARUS, who, upon dying found himself in Abraham's bosom, and a certain RICH MAN in torment."[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 15:11-31[/FONT]...The [FONT=&quot]firstborn son[/FONT] is typical of the [FONT=&quot]Jewish [/FONT]nation, while [FONT=&quot]the prodigal son[/FONT] is that of the [FONT=&quot]Gentile [/FONT]nations. The [FONT=&quot]Jews[/FONT] are envious of the [FONT=&quot]repentant son [/FONT]who returns to the Father's house. The [FONT=&quot]eldest son [/FONT]is supposed to receive the honor of the fatted calf, the signet ring of the Father's authority, the robe of royalty, and the Father's shoes to walk like Him, etc.; but [FONT=&quot]the younger, the redeemed nations, [/FONT]receive all these things instead. We see the same scenario with [FONT=&quot]Ishmael and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Isaac, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Esau and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Jacob[/FONT][FONT=&quot],[/FONT]and also [FONT=&quot]Joseph[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and his elder brothers[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT] In each case the younger receives the inheritance while the elder resentfully loses it. Hence, [FONT=&quot]the elder son and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the prodigal son[/FONT].

[FONT=&quot]Luke 16:1-13[/FONT]
...The [FONT=&quot]unjust steward[/FONT] in these verses speak of the [FONT=&quot]Jews[/FONT]. They wasted the Spiritual goods that God, the rich Master, had trusted to their care. They even wasted the most precious treasure He could have given them -- Jesus -- His own Son. This same parable, it appears, was told in Matthew about the certain rich Householder who planted a vineyard and let it out to husbandmen to care for. Each time He sent servants (the prophets) to see how things were going, they were killed. He then sent His own Son. Thinking they could seize His inheritance, He too was killed (Mat 21:33-42). Jesus concluded that particular parable with a strong proclamation: [FONT=&quot]"Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given [/FONT][FONT=&quot]to a nation[/FONT][FONT=&quot] bringing forth the fruits thereof"[/FONT] (Mat 21:43).

[FONT=&quot]Luke 16:19-26[/FONT]...[FONT=&quot]The rich man[/FONT] clothed in [FONT=&quot]purple [/FONT]and [FONT=&quot]fine linen [/FONT]is typical of [FONT=&quot]the kings[/FONT] and [FONT=&quot]priests of God -- Israel; while [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Lazarus (whom God aids)[/FONT] represents [FONT=&quot]the Gentiles.[/FONT]

In torment, the rich man cries out to his father Abraham. Notice that he does not cry to God, not to Yahweh, not to Jehovah, and certainly not to Jesus; but he cries out to Abraham -- the father of Israel. He begs for Lazarus to be sent with a drop of water to soothe his tongue
He yearns to have his 2,000 years of scorching pain eased; the pain of scorn and hatred he has suffered under God's hand of judgment. He is told, however, that the gulf is fixed, that neither side can go to the other. This in no way suggests an 'eternal' condition to never be changed. It simply states that those who 'would' cannot cross over on their own. It takes more than human desire for Israel to be relieved from centuries of torment. The Gentilesmust be brought in before the Jews as a whole can be released from judgment. Israel was rich in God, and fared sumptuously, but they squandered their wealth, killed the King's Son, and now they must wait until the proper season. Paul wrote so clearly concerning this:
"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel,
until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob" (Rom. 11:25-26, 27-36).



Luke 16:27-31...Lastly, the rich man begged Lazarus to be sent to his brothers to warn them. He was told that they have Moses and the prophets; "Let them hear them." But in desperation he argued, "Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him. If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though One rose from the dead." And of course, they didn't repent. For One rose from the dead -- JESUS -- and they did not repent, even to this day.



They, therefore, remain in torment. The gulf has been fixed, and this isfor both the Gentiles and for Israel; but it is not forever.To the natural mind it would be the sensible thing to do, to hurry the process, to stop the suffering -- but it won't be. Until the appointed time Israel cannot span the wide chasm, and neither can the Gentiles in Christ cross that fixed gulf and save them. Regardless of how many missionaries are sent to the 'holy land', it will not happen before the time. The Jews are held in unbreakable chains of darkness, and this is by God's decree -- and man cannot circumvent or change it. They will remain locked in darkness until the Sons of God sound the trumpet of freedom, and they hear for the first time the Good News to return unto the Lord. Individuals may cross over as the Lord bids, which is a rarity, but not the nation. For "...Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible"; but praise God, He did not stop there. He then said, "WITH GOD ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE" (Mat. 19:26). God certainly "...turns man to destruction; and says, RETURN, YE CHILDREN OF MEN" (Psa. 90:3). Indeed, it is impossible for either the rich man or Lazarus to cross that fixed gulf; but the day will shortly dawn when God will make it possible. Get ready, O ye Sons of God, for your hour to sound the Word of liberty to those across the gulf draws nigh!
Why spin Jesus' parable into an elaborate said truth.

By the way, this all theory you're stating is not The Truth.

Read my Parables REAveaLed thread and your shrouded in mystery elaboration of Luke 19 you will see is unreal.

Jesus spoke in parables to show Truth revealed, unveiled, to those who chose/ choose (now) to believe.

The multitudes could not understand Jesus speaking in parables, ONLY His sheep could.

Matthew 9:36 - But when He saw the multitudes, He was moved with compassion for them, because they were weary and scattered, like SHEEP HAVING NO SHEPHERD. (my note: they were unsaved) .

Matthew 9:37 affirms multitudes being unsaved, 'Then He said to His disciples, The harvest truly is plentiful, but the laborers are few.'



Hell is real. Heaven is real. And one or the other will be your choice for a very long time in life after you die. Forever. Choose eternal life, not eternal punishment.
 
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chesser

Guest
#52
The Bible does not say or teach the things you are teaching. That is a bunch of false doctrine from men. There is proof that the story is literal. Jesus used specific names in the story. We know the lost go to eternal punishment from other verses in the Bible. Who are you to preach that the Jews cannot be saved? Some of the apostles were sent to the Jews specifically.
By that logic, the parable of the lost sheep isn't a parable, Jesus doesn't use sheep in any of his other parables, name one other parable in which he mentioned sheep, because he mentioned sheep, it's a literal event he was rendering to.
 
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See_KING_Truth

Guest
#53
The story of Lazarus and the rich man is not a parable in my opinion. If I were to say that Abraham's bosom was said in reference to heaven, then I may as well call it a parable. Why wouldn't Jesus just call it heaven if that is what He meant?

John 3:13
King James Version (KJV)
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Wouldn't this scripture mean that no man is in heaven yet? Not Lazarus, not Enoch, not even Elijah. So then heaven in the OT must refer to Abraham's bosom. Right?

I don't believe it is a parable, and I don't think it is a reference to either eternal heaven or hell.


(Final thoughts) I'm not sure what to make of many parts of the bible. Maybe I'm just not ready to understand certain things.

But I do know 3 things for sure:

1) There is an Almighty God
2) Jesus is Lord, and not some fictional character
3) The bible is not a fable
 
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Closemyeyes2cU

Guest
#54
I think the backbone of the story is true but I'm not sure if every little detail is supposed to be taken literally.
 
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See_KING_Truth

Guest
#55
Another thought, why would anybody already be in eternal heaven or hell? The day of judgement has not arrived yet, so why would people be serving their sentence before it is given? God is a just God.
 
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Closemyeyes2cU

Guest
#56
Another thought, why would anybody already be in eternal heaven or hell? The day of judgement has not arrived yet, so why would people be serving their sentence before it is given? God is a just God.
The word hell in that story is the Greek word Hades and not "Gehenna", so I dont believe Jesus was implying that anyone was in the eternal hell yet.
 
Jul 12, 2012
933
2
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#57
It really all boils down to this:
For those who embrace eternal torment, it must be literal.
For those who embrace universal reconciliation, it must be a parable.
Which is the Spirit of love, forgiveness, salvation?

Let those who believe the Father will create a sentient being with the foreknowledge of their eternal torment continue to call Him "destroyer."
Let those who believe the Father only does what is right continue to call Him "Daddy."

Ezekiel 8:12 Then said he unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen what the ancients of the house of Israel do in the dark, every man in the chambers of his imagery? for they say, YHWH sees us not; YHWH has forsaken the earth.

Believing that most will perish is saying that YHWH doesn't see our suffering, and that He has forsaken us.

Few "slay" with the "sword", many torture with it.
 
C

chesser

Guest
#58
The story of Lazarus and the rich man is not a parable in my opinion. If I were to say that Abraham's bosom was said in reference to heaven, then I may as well call it a parable. Why wouldn't Jesus just call it heaven if that is what He meant?

John 3:13
King James Version (KJV)
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Wouldn't this scripture mean that no man is in heaven yet? Not Lazarus, not Enoch, not even Elijah. So then heaven in the OT must refer to Abraham's bosom. Right?

I don't believe it is a parable, and I don't think it is a reference to either eternal heaven or hell.


(Final thoughts) I'm not sure what to make of many parts of the bible. Maybe I'm just not ready to understand certain things.

But I do know 3 things for sure:

1) There is an Almighty God
2) Jesus is Lord, and not some fictional character
3) The bible is not a fable
With the exception of Enoch and Elijah, everyone who died went to Abraham's bosom before Jesus, the parable mentions neither heaven or hell
 
X

xino

Guest
#59
LAODICEA


YOU SAID: If the story is real then Jesus would have contradicted himself when he said that people are rewarded when he returns.


There is no contradiction...because no rewards are given hear.

This is not a parable because Jesus quoted a known historical figure who was dead for many years and offered no explanation for it. I believe Jesus...If He said that Abraham spoke these words... then I believe that Abraham spoke these words.





POINT!

If it is a parable Jesus would say so and the bible would SAY so!

people love to use assumption, their understanding and opinions!

The Rich Man and Lazarus

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
the subtitle says THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS
Jesus starts off saying "There was a rich man..."
The bible did not say it was a parable!

EVEN though the story was a parable, it would be relating to Kingdom of God.
Because ALL parables Jesus told was all for Kingdom of God.
 
C

chesser

Guest
#60
POINT!

If it is a parable Jesus would say so and the bible would SAY so!

people love to use assumption, their understanding and opinions!



the subtitle says THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS
Jesus starts off saying "There was a rich man..."
The bible did not say it was a parable!

EVEN though the story was a parable, it would be relating to Kingdom of God.
Because ALL parables Jesus told was all for Kingdom of God.
Jesus didn't always announce that he's telling a parable, there r others as well.