Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

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ewq1938

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You will closely note the two Witnesses tormented the wicked world, they rule the 3.5 year tribulation, not the Antichrist


No, the don't rule, the AC does. They are very powerful during the time of their testimony but once that is completed, they will be powerless and will be murdered.
 

cv5

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Hello again, Absolutely!

Regarding this, I just wanted to present some information:

In Revelation 14:1-4, First we have the mention of the 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel who were sealed in Chapter 7:1-8. Now you claim that the harvest is regarding this group. However, in between the information of the 144,000 and the harvest of verse 15-16, there is the information regarding the three angels, one announcing the everlasting gospel to all of the inhabitants of the earth. Then you have the second angel announcing Babylon the Great's fate. And then the third angel warning the inhabitants about the consequences for those who worship the beast, his image and receive his mark. My point being is that, the harvest information does not immediately follow the information regarding the 144,000. And here is another issue:

The scripture states that the 144,000 are with the Lamb standing on Mount Zion. It also states in verse 3 that "they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders," which would show that they have already been redeemed and are already in heaven. Where in verse 15-16 there is a harvest taking place. To have the 144,000 shown to already be in heaven and then the harvest to follow would not make sense, because the 144,000 are already in heaven. They would have to be, in order to sing a new song before the throne.

In further support of this, I believe that the 'Mount Zion' that the Lamb and the 144,000 are standing on, is figurative of the heavenly Mount Zion, the New Jerusalem, which is referred to in Hebrews 12:22. In addition, the fact that the 144,000 already have the Lamb's and the Father's name written on their foreheads demonstrates that they have already been redeemed and are in their immortal and glorified bodies.

So the question is, since the 144,000 are already shown to be in heaven, standing with the Lamb on the heavenly Mount Zion, how can that harvest that follows in verse 15-16 be referring to the 144,000? This is just my process of elimination.

Looking forward to your response regarding this.
What you have postulated in that post is also my assessment as well. For the time being. Difficult passages to be sure.

There does seem to be two different harvests.....one of the righteous (v. 13) and one of those appointed to wrath (v. 19).
 

cv5

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I have not taken a stand on the harvest here in Rev.14, because there is just not enough information to make a conclusion.

"Then another angel came out of the temple, crying out in a loud voice to the One seated on the cloud, “Swing Your sickle and reap, because the time has come to harvest; for the crop of the earth is ripe.” So the One seated on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested."

In comparison to the harvest that follows, this harvest appears to be a good harvest, but who is being harvested? Is it a resurrection or are living people being harvested? We don't have that information. It is possible that it could be the resurrection of the OT saints, but it is just a guess. In addition, Rev.12:6, 14 says that the woman who is figuratively representing Israel, flees out into the wilderness where she will be cared for during that 1260 days i.e. the last 3 1/2 years. So the remnant of Israel will be cared for by God out in the wilderness until the Lord returns to the earth.

"Still another angel, with authority over the fire, came from the altar and called out in a loud voice to the angel with the sharp sickle, “Swing your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the vine of the earth, because its grapes are ripe.”

So the angel swung his sickle over the earth and gathered the grapes of the earth, and he threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and the blood that flowed from it rose as high as the bridles of the horses for a distance of 1,600 stadia."

This second harvest appears to be one of living people and is reminiscent of Armageddon, the harvest being the destruction of the wicked on the earth, as demonstrated by the Lord trampling the winepress and the blood flowing as high as the horses bridle. However, that doesn't happen until the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, where all of the nations are gathered and the Euphrates is dried up to make way for the kings of the east. The bowl judgments don't begin until chapter 16 and Armageddon would follow them.

These two harvests are still in my spiritual cupboard, as the Spirit has not yet revealed the meaning of these to me personally.

What information do you have to make you believe that the first harvest is the gathering of the Jews?
144,000 now with Jesus.....Raptured??? Certainly possible.

First Angel....good harvest of tribulation saints.
Second angel......bad harvest of the wicked.
 

GaryA

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My advice: Scrap everything and reboot your end-time eschatology anew.

Chuck Missler is the go-to source for that. Also try MacArthur.
Chuck Missler and John MacArthur are about as-dangerous-as-they-come when it comes to eschatology...
 

Ahwatukee

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Mar 12, 2015
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And that is not a biblical statement. Believers are promised to receive wrath:

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

That war is known as the Great Tribulation where believers will receive the wrath mentioned above.
Why in the world would believers be promised God's wrath, when after they believed, they were credited with the righteousness of Christ and reconciled to God? By your claim it shows that you don't understand the nature of God, nor do you understand our reconciliation.

That wrath above is not for the church, but for those saints that will come out of the great tribulation. The church is gathered prior to God's wrath. CV is correct in that, the church is not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath or any wrath. And that because Jesus already suffered it on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely. I wish you people would stop placing God's wrath back on the believer's in Christ, when He already removed it.

'The remnant of her seed' is in reference to the great tribulation saints who are all Gentiles which were introduced in Rev.7:9-17. These are those who will have not been believers prior to the church being gathered, but will become believers after the gathering and during the time of God's wrath.

Do you see the word 'church' mentioned anywhere in chapter 12? The last time it was used was at the end of chapter 3 and that after being used 19 times and not interchangeably with the word 'saints.' This is God's clue that the church is no longer on the earth from that point on.

Satan having 'great wrath' is just because he will have been kicked out of heaven. It does not mean that this time period is the time of His wrath. It's God's time of wrath. And everything that takes place falls under God's time of wrath, including Satan's anger because he's been cast to the earth.
 

Ahwatukee

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144,000 now with Jesus.....Raptured??? Certainly possible.

First Angel....good harvest of tribulation saints.
Second angel......bad harvest of the wicked.
Yes, that is correct. Here is the scripture:

Then I looked and saw the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him 144,000 who had His name and His Father’s name written on their foreheads. And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of many waters and the loud rumbling of thunder. And the sound I heard was like harpists strumming their harps. And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders."

The 144,000 would have to be in heaven in order to sing a new song before the throne, the four living beings and the elders. Would you not agree?

The Mount Zion that the Lamb and the 144,000 are standing on, I believe is speaking of the heavenly Mount Zion, the New Jerusalem, which is referred to in Hebrews:

"Instead, you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem."

In any case, the 144,000 are singing a song before the throne, which would demonstrate that at that time they will already have be in heaven. They were sealed while they were still on the earth in Rev.7 and in Rev.14 it shows them before the throne singing a new song that only they can learn.

In addition and as I have posted many other times, I believe that the Male Child is a collective name representing the 144,000 who are caught up to God and His throne, which is why we see them in Rev.14 as already in heaven and which is the same word 'harpazo' used to describe the living church being caught up.

First Angel....good harvest of tribulation saints.
The tribulation saints are resurrected after Jesus returns to the earth, as described in Rev.20:4-6:

"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

The first harvest in Rev.14 takes place prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. Regarding the harvest that follows of the grapes, I agree that it is a harvest of the wicked, as denoted by them being thrown into the winepress of God's wrath and the blood being as high as the horses bridle.

So, the question still remains with me, who is that first group being harvested prior to the grapes being gathered?

I've heard all the assumptions, but I need to know the answer myself from scripture in order to make my own conclusion.
 

Ahwatukee

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The church began before Pentecost and it doesn't end at the Rapture.
The Church period ends at the event when the dead in Christ are resurrected and the living in Christ are changed and caught up. Those left on the earth after that will be the nation of Israel, the 144,000 who come out of Israel, the great tribulation saints and the wicked.

the law worketh wrath- Romans 4:15
The law brings wrath for those who try to be saved by keeping it, because we are unable to do so because of our sinful nature. However, believers are not saved by observing the law, but by faith in Christ. God's wrath will be upon all who are not trusting in Christ for their salvation. That said, God's wrath is not upon those who do believe in His Son.
 

Truth7t7

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The only people supernaturally protected (from an untimely death) from these plagues are the SEALED 144,000 Israelite PREACHERS. Just as Noah and his family were saved through the flood (tribulation) so these will be saved through the end time tribulation. But certainly not without some trauma.

Everyone else is going to suffer these earthy judgements....including the tribulation saints in my opinion. Yes they will be martyred primarily but many will probably die in the devastating judgments along with the unsaved. But they will die believers and be counted among the tribulation saints. This is speculation on my part but my point is that the tribulation saints are by no means protected. But they are being NUMBERED......in the Lambs book of life.
The tribulation is going to be (Ruled) by the Rev 11 (Two Witnesses) it's going to be a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt, and the Hebrews werent running around scared, a fact!

(All Plagues As Often As They Will)

Revelation 11:3-6KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

The Plagues Seen Below, Are Brought At The Words Of The Two Witnesses, They Are Upon Those Who Took The Mark,Worshipped The Image, The Sealed Church Is Protected, Just Like In Egypt!

The Lord God Almighty Is In Control, Read It!

Revelation 16:1-11KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

Revelation 3:10KJV
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
 

ewq1938

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What does the church have to do with the redemption of Israel?
The Church began with the faithful of Israel and later Gentiles converted and joined the Church. The only redemption of anyone is by convertinga and joining that Church.
 

ewq1938

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That also says men can hurt the 2W. Revelation 13 also speaks of the saints being overcome and killed so the other side is causing harm and death as well.

Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

None of this would be possible if the 2W were "ruling" the Great Tribulation. The two beasts very much are ruling most of the world with some resistance from the 2W but that ends as seen in Revelation 11.


The tribulation is going to be (Ruled) by the Rev 11 (Two Witnesses) it's going to be a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt, and the Hebrews werent running around scared, a fact!

(All Plagues As Often As They Will)

Revelation 11:3-6KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

The Plagues Seen Below, Are Brought At The Words Of The Two Witnesses, They Are Upon Those Who Took The Mark,Worshipped The Image, The Sealed Church Is Protected, Just Like In Egypt!

The Lord God Almighty Is In Control, Read It!

Revelation 16:1-11KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
 

Truth7t7

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No, the don't rule, the AC does. They are very powerful during the time of their testimony but once that is completed, they will be powerless and will be murdered.
Your living in a dream world, from the time the two witnesses are killed, to the end of the world is a matter of 4-5 days, ending in the 3rd woe in Rev 11:15, who you kidding!

The same hour they are raised, the great earthquake, as the 2nd woe is past, and the 3rd comes quickly in the 7th Trump, its "FINISHED"!


When the two witnesses finish their testimony, thay are killed,lay in the street 3.5 days, as the world has their last celebration

They are called to heaven in the sight of the world, in the (Same Hour) the great earthquake,the second woe is past, and the third comes quickly in the second coming, end of this world


Yes these two witnesses will be the focal point, all the way to the (End)

You will closely note the two Witnesses tormented the wicked world, they rule the 3.5 year tribulation, not the Antichrist

Revelation 11:3-15KJV

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
 

Truth7t7

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That also says men can hurt the 2W. Revelation 13 also speaks of the saints being overcome and killed so the other side is causing harm and death as well.

Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

None of this would be possible if the 2W were "ruling" the Great Tribulation. The two beasts very much are ruling most of the world with some resistance from the 2W but that ends as seen in Revelation 11.
The saints in Rev 13 is the two Witnesses in Rev 11, when they finish their testimony they are killed, then a matter of days to the 7th Trump and the end if this world
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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Yes, that is correct. Here is the scripture:

Then I looked and saw the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him 144,000 who had His name and His Father’s name written on their foreheads. And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of many waters and the loud rumbling of thunder. And the sound I heard was like harpists strumming their harps. And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders."

The 144,000 would have to be in heaven in order to sing a new song before the throne, the four living beings and the elders. Would you not agree?

The Mount Zion that the Lamb and the 144,000 are standing on, I believe is speaking of the heavenly Mount Zion, the New Jerusalem, which is referred to in Hebrews:

"Instead, you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem."

In any case, the 144,000 are singing a song before the throne, which would demonstrate that at that time they will already have be in heaven. They were sealed while they were still on the earth in Rev.7 and in Rev.14 it shows them before the throne singing a new song that only they can learn.

In addition and as I have posted many other times, I believe that the Male Child is a collective name representing the 144,000 who are caught up to God and His throne, which is why we see them in Rev.14 as already in heaven and which is the same word 'harpazo' used to describe the living church being caught up.



The tribulation saints are resurrected after Jesus returns to the earth, as described in Rev.20:4-6:

"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

The first harvest in Rev.14 takes place prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. Regarding the harvest that follows of the grapes, I agree that it is a harvest of the wicked, as denoted by them being thrown into the winepress of God's wrath and the blood being as high as the horses bridle.

So, the question still remains with me, who is that first group being harvested prior to the grapes being gathered?

I've heard all the assumptions, but I need to know the answer myself from scripture in order to make my own conclusion.
Completely agree that the 144,000 are raptured in heaven with the zōon and Elders singing a new song. And they were saved every one of them through the GT just as all the animals and people on Noah's ark and Daniels friends in the fiery furnace.

There is a fly in the ointment regarding the theory that the Rev 14 first harvest is a good harvest. It sounds plausible at first but the issue is that BOTH of these harvests are grapes. Not wheat.

First harvest overripe shriveled grapes.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3583&t=NKJV

Second harvest fully ripe grapes.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G187&t=NKJV

On the other hand the context and ordering leaves room for the possibility that the first harvest IS a good harvest. It sure seems possible that they are Tribulation Saints.

Tough call though no doubt about that.
 

ewq1938

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Oct 18, 2018
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The saints in Rev 13 is the two Witnesses in Rev 11
I don't think they are the same because in Revelation 11, we only see two people being killed and certainly the reference in Revelation 13 is about more than two people.

Also, if the 2W were actually ruling, no one would be hurting them:

Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

That's self defense not ruling.
 

Truth7t7

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The Church period ends at the event when the dead in Christ are resurrected and the living in Christ are changed and caught up. Those left on the earth after that will be the nation of Israel, the 144,000 who come out of Israel, the great tribulation saints and the wicked.



The law brings wrath for those who try to be saved by keeping it, because we are unable to do so because of our sinful nature. However, believers are not saved by observing the law, but by faith in Christ. God's wrath will be upon all who are not trusting in Christ for their salvation. That said, God's wrath is not upon those who do believe in His Son.
The main scripture used by supporters of the (Pre-Trib) rapture teaching is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming) (Last Day) resurrection, not a Pre-Trib rapture.

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
 

Ahwatukee

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Completely agree that the 144,000 are raptured in heaven with the zōon and Elders singing a new song. And they were saved every one of them through the GT just as all the animals and people on Noah's ark and Daniels friends in the fiery furnace.

There is a fly in the ointment regarding the theory that the Rev 14 first harvest is a good harvest. It sounds plausible at first but the issue is that BOTH of these harvests are grapes. Not wheat.

First harvest overripe shriveled grapes.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3583&t=NKJV

Second harvest fully ripe grapes.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G187&t=NKJV

On the other hand the context and ordering leaves room for the possibility that the first harvest IS a good harvest. It sure seems possible that they are Tribulation Saints.

Tough call though no doubt about that.
Well, the first harvest is neutral, i.e. it doesn't infer whether it is good or bad. Where as the harvest of the grapes is obvious. That said, you could very well be right though. If the grape harvest represents all of the wicked on the earth, then what would the first harvest represent, since the grape harvest covers all of the wicked?

It seems revealing that the first harvest is silent in opposition to the second harvest of the grapes.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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The tribulation is going to be (Ruled) by the Rev 11 (Two Witnesses) it's going to be a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt, and the Hebrews werent running around scared, a fact!

(All Plagues As Often As They Will)

Revelation 11:3-6KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

The Plagues Seen Below, Are Brought At The Words Of The Two Witnesses, They Are Upon Those Who Took The Mark,Worshipped The Image, The Sealed Church Is Protected, Just Like In Egypt!

The Lord God Almighty Is In Control, Read It!

Revelation 16:1-11KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

Revelation 3:10KJV
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
I agree that the Two Witnesses are commissioned in the role of OT judgment prophets. Likely Moses and Elijah resurrected. Just as the Israelites in Egypt were supernaturally protected, so shall be God's 144,000 sealed commandos.

The parallel types are inescapable. And absolutely valid. No doubt the 144,000 will be fearless.

Your error and continual stumbling is your notion that the Church is around during the GT. It is not.....it has been raptured. I mean there is just no doubt about the fact that the Church has been raptured. It's gone it's outta here.

What you fail to comprehend is the inevitable fact that the Tribulation/GT is Jewish Jewish Jewish. Two Witnesses (Moses and Elijah.....ISRAELITES) 144,000 ISRAELITES and judgment preaching!

Just listen to the proclamations of the flying angels in Rev 14. This is no longer the Gospel of Grace! This is the preaching of the Fear of God and judgment and warning of doom.
This is John the Baptist and Old Testament prophet style preaching of fearful imminent judgment.


This is the preaching that is typical of the Tribulation and GT. The Church age is over. The age of Grace is finished. There are no Christian preachers.......at all. Find them if you can. That task now falls to Israelites.

The Tribulation is the age of judgment my friend. It is the great and terrible Day of the Lord. Yes there are people who are being saved during this time. But you better believe that this is a completely different dispensation compared to the Church Age.
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
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That also says men can hurt the 2W. Revelation 13 also speaks of the saints being overcome and killed so the other side is causing harm and death as well.

Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

None of this would be possible if the 2W were "ruling" the Great Tribulation. The two beasts very much are ruling most of the world with some resistance from the 2W but that ends as seen in Revelation 11.
Oh Sure, Looks Like The Antichrist Is In Control Below "NOT"!

The (Two Witnesses) Rule During The Tribulation, Representing Jesus Christ On Earth, Judgement In Plagues, The Warm Up!

Does That Look Like The Antichrist Is In Control Below?

Revelation 14:9-12KJV
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Does That Look Like The Antichrist Is In Control Below?

Revelation 16:1-11KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

Does That Look Like The Antichrist Is In Control Below?

Revelation 9:1-6KJV
1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.