Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.
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But you have failed to recognise the significance of the verses I highlighted.
Moses, Daniel, Jesus, John & the other prophets all tell the same story. If you can't agree we shouldn't bother discussing.
It's totally irrelevant if "Israel is not the Church". The scripture from Isaiah you gave clearly links to the other verses.
If it's about Israel only, so be it. It wasn't myself trying to use it as pretrib rapture evidence.
Beside that, prophetic patterns DO apply to the church.
You insist the trumpet is an announcement. I agreed. I also showed you the FACT that the 7th trumpet of Revelation is an announcement. A very important one.
Moses, Daniel, Jesus, John & the other prophets all tell the same story. If you can't agree we shouldn't bother discussing.
It's totally irrelevant if "Israel is not the Church". The scripture from Isaiah you gave clearly links to the other verses.
If it's about Israel only, so be it. It wasn't myself trying to use it as pretrib rapture evidence.
Beside that, prophetic patterns DO apply to the church.
You insist the trumpet is an announcement. I agreed. I also showed you the FACT that the 7th trumpet of Revelation is an announcement. A very important one.
You desire to see Jesus Christ return, and start a Millennial Kingdom on this earth, you dont want to acknowledge this fire at the Lords Appearance, Revealing, below "Why"?
The Lord Jesus Christ Appears, Reveals, In (FIRE)
There wont be a 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom on this earth, Jesus Christ will return in fire and Final judgement, dissolving the heavens and earth by fire.
1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
2 Thessalonians 1:7-8KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
"Destroyed Them All" At His Revealing (Fact)
Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
At His Presence, The World Is Burned, And "All" That Dwell Therein (Fact)
Nahum 1:5KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
Bodies Consumed By The Lords Fire In Final Judgement
Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
The Heavens And Earth Are (Dissolved)
2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
The Lord Jesus Christ Appears, Reveals, In (FIRE)
There wont be a 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom on this earth, Jesus Christ will return in fire and Final judgement, dissolving the heavens and earth by fire.
1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
2 Thessalonians 1:7-8KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
"Destroyed Them All" At His Revealing (Fact)
Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
At His Presence, The World Is Burned, And "All" That Dwell Therein (Fact)
Nahum 1:5KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
Bodies Consumed By The Lords Fire In Final Judgement
Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
The Heavens And Earth Are (Dissolved)
2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
Sorry.....I disagree. The Church in no way fits prophetically in any way to Israel. The time of Jacobs trouble does NOT speak to OR affect the Church in any way. None. Whenever Jesus is speaking about Jacobs trouble He is NEVER addressing the Church. Obviously.
OK...lets try the omission principle.
Prove to me in Revelation (during the 70th week) two things:
1) the presence of the Church, the "ecclesia" (hint...its not there).
2) that the "ecclesia" is PREACHING in any way shape or form (hint....only Israelites are doing the preaching)
Question: Can the Great Commission to the Church ever be de-commissioned?
Answer: of course not. The Church is simply not present on the earth. Their commission has been fulfilled. They have been Raptured and are seen in Chapters 4&5 in heaven on thrones as kings and priests. Clearly the one and only Church. No doubt about it.
OK...lets try the omission principle.
Prove to me in Revelation (during the 70th week) two things:
1) the presence of the Church, the "ecclesia" (hint...its not there).
2) that the "ecclesia" is PREACHING in any way shape or form (hint....only Israelites are doing the preaching)
Question: Can the Great Commission to the Church ever be de-commissioned?
Answer: of course not. The Church is simply not present on the earth. Their commission has been fulfilled. They have been Raptured and are seen in Chapters 4&5 in heaven on thrones as kings and priests. Clearly the one and only Church. No doubt about it.
You are assuming that "parousia" is used only re: the time of His Second Coming to the earth Rev19 context... rather than also being used re: "the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR" (to which only "the Church which is His body" will be "caught up," to experience, not any of the unsaved/unbelievers--His "presence/parousia," in this case, only involves those at that "meeting"); the word is used in each of these cases, and context determines "who" and "where" it involves.
____________
re: "the coming of OUR Lord Jesus Christ" or "the revelation of OUR Lord Jesus Christ" or "the day of OUR Lord Jesus Christ" - [all phrases related to our Rapture-timing and its location-destination]
...consider:
1 Corinthians 1:7-8 -
7 so as for you not to be lacking in any gift as you eagerly-await the revelation [G602; *with definite article, 'the'] of our Lord Jesus Christ, 8 who also will sustain you to the end, blameless [G410--see **Col1:22] in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[note: "the day of Christ/-our Lord Jesus Christ" is when WE are UP THERE WITH [G4862 - UNITED-with] Him... which is distinct from (though running concurrently with) "the day of the Lord" which is entirely "earthly-located" and which involves JUDGMENTS unfolding upon the earth]
*--"eagerly-await THE revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ" 1Cor1:7 (same as 1Pet4:13), versus 1Pet1:13's "fully set hope upon the being-brought to you grace IN revelation OF the Lord Jesus" (NO definite article ['the'] with the word 'revelation'; so the phrase "IN revelation OF" is speaking of "in the here and now")
**--Col1:22 - re: 'the HOPE of the gospel,' and not merely 'the gospel' msg itself, as in 2Cor4:2-4, etc;
____________
re: "the coming of OUR Lord Jesus Christ" or "the revelation of OUR Lord Jesus Christ" or "the day of OUR Lord Jesus Christ" - [all phrases related to our Rapture-timing and its location-destination]
...consider:
1 Corinthians 1:7-8 -
7 so as for you not to be lacking in any gift as you eagerly-await the revelation [G602; *with definite article, 'the'] of our Lord Jesus Christ, 8 who also will sustain you to the end, blameless [G410--see **Col1:22] in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[note: "the day of Christ/-our Lord Jesus Christ" is when WE are UP THERE WITH [G4862 - UNITED-with] Him... which is distinct from (though running concurrently with) "the day of the Lord" which is entirely "earthly-located" and which involves JUDGMENTS unfolding upon the earth]
*--"eagerly-await THE revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ" 1Cor1:7 (same as 1Pet4:13), versus 1Pet1:13's "fully set hope upon the being-brought to you grace IN revelation OF the Lord Jesus" (NO definite article ['the'] with the word 'revelation'; so the phrase "IN revelation OF" is speaking of "in the here and now")
**--Col1:22 - re: 'the HOPE of the gospel,' and not merely 'the gospel' msg itself, as in 2Cor4:2-4, etc;
Another thing to bear in mind, is that Paul is covering a period of time in 2Th1&2, not merely a point-in-time...
...so the word "parousia" is also used re: "the man of sin" at the point-in-time (at the START of the trib years, not its mid-point with 1260 days remaining) when the "man of sin be REVEALED":
"8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will [future tense] consume with the breath of His mouth and will annul by the appearing of His coming, 9 whose coming [parousia (re: man of sin)] is according to the working of Satan, in every power, and in signs, and in wonders of falsehood, 10 and in every deception of wickedness unto those perishing, in return for which they did not receive the love of the truth in order for them to be saved." [that is, in/during/within the entire trib yrs--a period of time]
...so the word "parousia" is also used re: "the man of sin" at the point-in-time (at the START of the trib years, not its mid-point with 1260 days remaining) when the "man of sin be REVEALED":
"8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will [future tense] consume with the breath of His mouth and will annul by the appearing of His coming, 9 whose coming [parousia (re: man of sin)] is according to the working of Satan, in every power, and in signs, and in wonders of falsehood, 10 and in every deception of wickedness unto those perishing, in return for which they did not receive the love of the truth in order for them to be saved." [that is, in/during/within the entire trib yrs--a period of time]
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Again, your failure to fully comprehend the distinctiveness BETWEEN the Church and Israel is the cause for your stumbling.
There are "hints" and patterns of the Church in the OT. Rare, but there IMO. The entire Book of Ruth is an analogy of the plan of Redemption.
Boaz.......goel kinsman redeemer (type of Christ)
Naomi....Israel who thru Boaz redeems her LAND
Ruth.....the Church who learns of Boaz thru Naomi
Ruth at the feet of Boaz during the threshing floor scene. The Church saved from the time of wrath, being accepted for marriage by the Son.
However, the FULLNESS of the revelation of the mystery of the Church is not known until Paul expresses it. That being the Church is the gentile Bride, that we are gifted PERMANENTLY with the indwelling arrabon of the Spirit, furthermore that the mantle of Mediator and the commission of preaching the TRUTH falls to the Church. No Israelite that is NOT CONVERTED preaches the truth. It is impossible.
God dramatically SWITCHES GEARS during the 70th week. Church is Raptured. Gods wrath falls upon the earth as gentiles are judged and Jacob is cast into tribulation. Israel is RE-COMMMISSIONED to preach via the Two Witnesses and the 144,000. ONLY the 144,000 (and Two Witnesses for a time) are sealed and protected from harm. Some (untold millions) gentiles and Jews convert during that time. Death for converts is certain. Only the return of Jesus Messiah prevents all Tribulation Saints from being killed, and all of Israel being wiped out.
None of that pertains to the Church. None. And NO prophecy of the 70th week or the Time of Jacobs Trouble affects the Church in the least.
There are "hints" and patterns of the Church in the OT. Rare, but there IMO. The entire Book of Ruth is an analogy of the plan of Redemption.
Boaz.......goel kinsman redeemer (type of Christ)
Naomi....Israel who thru Boaz redeems her LAND
Ruth.....the Church who learns of Boaz thru Naomi
Ruth at the feet of Boaz during the threshing floor scene. The Church saved from the time of wrath, being accepted for marriage by the Son.
However, the FULLNESS of the revelation of the mystery of the Church is not known until Paul expresses it. That being the Church is the gentile Bride, that we are gifted PERMANENTLY with the indwelling arrabon of the Spirit, furthermore that the mantle of Mediator and the commission of preaching the TRUTH falls to the Church. No Israelite that is NOT CONVERTED preaches the truth. It is impossible.
God dramatically SWITCHES GEARS during the 70th week. Church is Raptured. Gods wrath falls upon the earth as gentiles are judged and Jacob is cast into tribulation. Israel is RE-COMMMISSIONED to preach via the Two Witnesses and the 144,000. ONLY the 144,000 (and Two Witnesses for a time) are sealed and protected from harm. Some (untold millions) gentiles and Jews convert during that time. Death for converts is certain. Only the return of Jesus Messiah prevents all Tribulation Saints from being killed, and all of Israel being wiped out.
None of that pertains to the Church. None. And NO prophecy of the 70th week or the Time of Jacobs Trouble affects the Church in the least.
I did not say a trumpet of announcement. I said THE trumpet of Assembly.
Maybe this will help you with this confusion regarding trumpets.
https://www.gotquestions.org/last-trumpet.html
Maybe this will help you with this confusion regarding trumpets.
https://www.gotquestions.org/last-trumpet.html
Nothing boiler plate whatsoever, Jesus Christ returns in fire and Final judgement, dissolving the earth by fire (Fact)
Use your boiler plate in denial of all that fire seen below, your boiler plate is melted like butter in the street, on a hot summer day
The Lord Jesus Christ Appears, Reveals, In (FIRE)
There wont be a 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom on this earth, Jesus Christ will return in fire and Final judgement, dissolving the heavens and earth by fire.
1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
2 Thessalonians 1:7-8KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
"Destroyed Them All" At His Revealing (Fact)
Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
At His Presence, The World Is Burned, And "All" That Dwell Therein (Fact)
Nahum 1:5KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
Bodies Consumed By The Lords Fire In Final Judgement
Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
The Heavens And Earth Are (Dissolved)
2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
Use your boiler plate in denial of all that fire seen below, your boiler plate is melted like butter in the street, on a hot summer day
The Lord Jesus Christ Appears, Reveals, In (FIRE)
There wont be a 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom on this earth, Jesus Christ will return in fire and Final judgement, dissolving the heavens and earth by fire.
1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
2 Thessalonians 1:7-8KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
"Destroyed Them All" At His Revealing (Fact)
Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
At His Presence, The World Is Burned, And "All" That Dwell Therein (Fact)
Nahum 1:5KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
Bodies Consumed By The Lords Fire In Final Judgement
Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
The Heavens And Earth Are (Dissolved)
2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
I doubt this post will show up correctly (the way I intend for it to come across--since everyone's screens are different), but I'll try this:
l----SEALs----l
..........................l--TRUM.PETs--l
........................................................l---VIALs---l (the "6th Vial" is "that the way... might be prepared"--re: Armageddon time-slot, Rev16:12)
...............................................................................l<---His Second Coming to the earth point in time (at the end of the Vials)
[the " .P " in the middle of the "Trumpets" word, represents/marks the MID-trib point... at the "5th Trumpet/1st Woe unto the earth"... Thus, there is still much time remaining from the point in time when the "7th Trumpet" has sounded, till the end of trib]
l----SEALs----l
..........................l--TRUM.PETs--l
........................................................l---VIALs---l (the "6th Vial" is "that the way... might be prepared"--re: Armageddon time-slot, Rev16:12)
...............................................................................l<---His Second Coming to the earth point in time (at the end of the Vials)
[the " .P " in the middle of the "Trumpets" word, represents/marks the MID-trib point... at the "5th Trumpet/1st Woe unto the earth"... Thus, there is still much time remaining from the point in time when the "7th Trumpet" has sounded, till the end of trib]
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I disagree with your claim, if Jesus Christ came today, it would bypass the truth of his words?
1.) The future Antichrist revealed starting the 3.5 year tribulation?
2.) The two witnesses of Rev 11, and literal plagues upon the earth?
3.) The literal battle of Armageddon?
It appears you deny the above mentioned in the Holy Bible?
1.) The future Antichrist revealed starting the 3.5 year tribulation?
2.) The two witnesses of Rev 11, and literal plagues upon the earth?
3.) The literal battle of Armageddon?
It appears you deny the above mentioned in the Holy Bible?